Moiraine's Eelfinn requests - ALL SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Neophyte]

So, the point of this is to generate some discussion on what Moiraine might have asked the Eelfinn for. We know that one of her requests was the strong angreal that she and Lanfear were struggling with when they entered Sindhol. The question is, what are the other two.

 

We know, too, that Moiraine's recovery from Sindhol was absolutely vital to the Light's success. In that context, I have an idea about at least one of the requests she may have made.

 

Often it is easier to solve a problem when you know a great deal about how the problem came to be. The whole world has a problem right now - the continued existence of the Bore. A knowledge about exactly how the Bore was created could be very useful in determining how to deal with it.

 

Lanfear, as Mierin Eronaile, was one of the two Aes Sedai who made the Bore in the first place. She undoubtedly knows as much about it as anyone living. And the Eelfinn, as we have already seen, are able to extract the memories and knowledge of people and pass them on to others.

 

So, what if Moiraine asked the Eelfinn to give her Lanfear's memories about the creation of the Bore? That information could be extremely useful - even vital - to formulating a final plan for the Last Battle.

 

Thoughts? On my idea, or any other ideas that you might have? I welcome comment here.

 

And this topic allows all spoilers for released material, as the title states.

[MasterAblar]

Some aspirin? I bet she had a headache after all that fighting with Lanfear.

[Amandera]

It should be noted Moiraine knew from Rhuidean that she would survive and the rescue would come. She might have said to hell with the Finn's restrictions on subjects touching the Shadow. I doubt her request was as simple as "I want to know how the Dragon can seal the Bore safely" but she wouldn't have much reservation about her wellbeing. Rescue will come, and if it's successful she goes free, if not she's already toast. So why bother dancing around the real issue?

[MarkDiLillo]

Rand and (we can presume) the Forsaken are the only ones alive who know that Mierin help drill the bore. None of the Aiel or anyone else who saw the same vision as Rand have any idea that the Mierin Sedai they saw is Lanfear.

[Neophyte]

Rand and (we can presume) the Forsaken are the only ones alive who know that Mierin help drill the bore. None of the Aiel or anyone else who saw the same vision as Rand have any idea that the Mierin Sedai they saw is Lanfear.

 

Moiraine has demonstrated surprising knowledge of the Forsaken before, and she has a good deal of information about her future both from the rings at Rhuidean and via her answers from the Aelfinn. I don't think it would be outside the realm of what we've seen her do before to have gleaned that little tidbit somewhere.

[MarkDiLillo]

Rand and (we can presume) the Forsaken are the only ones alive who know that Mierin help drill the bore. None of the Aiel or anyone else who saw the same vision as Rand have any idea that the Mierin Sedai they saw is Lanfear.

 

Moiraine has demonstrated surprising knowledge of the Forsaken before, and she has a good deal of information about her future both from the rings at Rhuidean and via her answers from the Aelfinn. I don't think it would be outside the realm of what we've seen her do before to have gleaned that little tidbit somewhere.

 

Anything is possible, but it was pretty firmly hinted that Moiraine knew little to nothing about Lanfear and she knew mostly everything there was to know. Her name did not appear known. The problem with this is that it would come off as really stale and invented if it were written in and suddenly Moiraine just goes "well I knew Lanfear was Mierin Sedai before and drilled the bore so I asked for her memories". Just doesn't seem like it would fit the story at all given what we know.

[The Fisher King]

We also know from this that she seriously considered sleeping with Rand and was told that would be a DISASTEROUS idea.

 

 

Fish

[Neophyte]

Rand and (we can presume) the Forsaken are the only ones alive who know that Mierin help drill the bore. None of the Aiel or anyone else who saw the same vision as Rand have any idea that the Mierin Sedai they saw is Lanfear.

 

Moiraine has demonstrated surprising knowledge of the Forsaken before, and she has a good deal of information about her future both from the rings at Rhuidean and via her answers from the Aelfinn. I don't think it would be outside the realm of what we've seen her do before to have gleaned that little tidbit somewhere.

 

Anything is possible, but it was pretty firmly hinted that Moiraine knew little to nothing about Lanfear and she knew mostly everything there was to know. Her name did not appear known. The problem with this is that it would come off as really stale and invented if it were written in and suddenly Moiraine just goes "well I knew Lanfear was Mierin Sedai before and drilled the bore so I asked for her memories". Just doesn't seem like it would fit the story at all given what we know.

 

Any more "invented" than her somehow knowing that Sammael was Lord Brend in Illian (not just that he was one of the Forsaken, but that he was Sammael specifically)? More than her knowing who Be'lal was in Tear with the same specificity? Tidbits about the Forsaken can apparently be found in the 13th depository - I imagine she knows more than she's let on.

 

And that doesn't even account for the rings or her Aelfinn answers. What if she asked the Aelfinn "How can I help the Dragon Reborn fix the Bore?" and got an answer to the effect of "You must remember what the Daughter of the Night knows" or some other oddly worded instruction?

 

Or maybe she just asked for a bunch of Lanfear's memories, hoping to get insight into the Shadow's plans, and got lucky.

 

I'm not saying there is evidence for any one of these specific scenarios. I'm just saying that reasonable scenarios can be constructed that would put her in possession of that information, and having that information is one way to explain why she is so important to Rand's success.

 

I'm curious, you claim that it is "pretty firmly hinted that Moiraine knew little to nothing about Lanfear." Where is that? I don't remember something suggesting particularly limited information regarding Lanfear specifically. But if it is a statement from the early books, then she may have looked for a way to rectify that ignorance later. She did know, after all, for several months that she and Lanfear would be taking a trip together.

[Amandera]

After Lanfear sends Moiraine and the girls her letter saying "LTT is mine but you'll take care of him until I come to reclaim him" when they were in Stone, she says something like "little is known about Daughter of the Night but she loved LTT". I don't think that counts as pretty firmly hinted but she does say "little is known". Of course that can easily count for an Aes Sedai answer: "little is known by general, but I know a lot"

 

 

Just checked, from tSR, the Stone Stands:

Sleep. There was too much to do to sleep. But he gave another nod. He did not want her shadowing him. Yet what he said was “Lanfear was here. This was not her doing. She said so, and I believe her. You don’t seem surprised, Moiraine.” Would Lanfear’s offer surprise her? Would anything? “Lanfear was here, and I talked with her. She didn’t try to kill me, and I didn’t try to kill her. And you are not surprised.”

“I doubt you could kill her. Yet.” Her glance at Callandorwas the merest flicker of dark eyes. “Not unaided. And I doubt she will try to kill you. Yet. We know little of any of the Forsaken, and least of all Lanfear, but we do know she loved Lews Therin Telamon. To say you are safe from her is certainly too strong — there is a good deal she can do to harm you short of murder — but I do not think she will try to kill as long as she thinks she might win Lews Therin back again.”

[mjasghar786]

Most AS would not research the forsaken as they didn't think the end was coming

Moraine had heard the foretelling so it makes sense she would research them , probably knowing as much or more than in the BWB

That means colours and themes used by that person so the fist and lightning of bel'al and sammael scar

[Aebram]

I think Moraine asked to be able to access the True Power.

 

I've had a pet theory for a while now involving the idea of "The three must be as one"

 

We know that Callandor has to be used in a circle by a male and two females, whom everyone seems to pretty much agree will be Rand, Nynaeve, and Moiraine.

I don't think that's all there is to "The three must be as one"...

 

I think that it means Saidar/Saidin/The True Power, all three powers must be flowing through Callandor in order for it to be properly used.

 

Nynaeve wielding Saidar, Rand Saidin, and the True Power - Moraine

[Neophyte]

After Lanfear sends Moiraine and the girls her letter saying "LTT is mine but you'll take care of him until I come to reclaim him" when they were in Stone, she says something like "little is known about Daughter of the Night but she loved LTT". I don't think that counts as pretty firmly hinted but she does say "little is known". Of course that can easily count for an Aes Sedai answer: "little is known by general, but I know a lot"

 

 

Just checked, from tSR, the Stone Stands:

Sleep. There was too much to do to sleep. But he gave another nod. He did not want her shadowing him. Yet what he said was “Lanfear was here. This was not her doing. She said so, and I believe her. You don’t seem surprised, Moiraine.” Would Lanfear’s offer surprise her? Would anything? “Lanfear was here, and I talked with her. She didn’t try to kill me, and I didn’t try to kill her. And you are not surprised.”

“I doubt you could kill her. Yet.” Her glance at Callandorwas the merest flicker of dark eyes. “Not unaided. And I doubt she will try to kill you. Yet. We know little of any of the Forsaken, and least of all Lanfear, but we do know she loved Lews Therin Telamon. To say you are safe from her is certainly too strong — there is a good deal she can do to harm you short of murder — but I do not think she will try to kill as long as she thinks she might win Lews Therin back again.”

 

Yes, I did remember that episode, and yes, I agree that it doesn't really say much as far as Moiraine's actual level of knowledge. "We know little of the Forsaken, and least of all Lanfear," could mean "I don't know much about Lanfear" or "We, as a society, don't know much about Lanfear, (but I know plenty)."

 

In addition, I believe that is from before either her questions to the Aelfinn or passage through the rings in Rhuidean. Moiraine has learned a great deal since then, too.

 

 

I think Moraine asked to be able to access the True Power.

 

I've had a pet theory for a while now involving the idea of "The three must be as one"

 

We know that Callandor has to be used in a circle by a male and two females, whom everyone seems to pretty much agree will be Rand, Nynaeve, and Moiraine.

I don't think that's all there is to "The three must be as one"...

 

I think that it means Saidar/Saidin/The True Power, all three powers must be flowing through Callandor in order for it to be properly used.

 

Nynaeve wielding Saidar, Rand Saidin, and the True Power - Moraine

 

I seriously doubt that the Eelfinn have the ability to grant access to the True Power, or that Moiraine would want to use it if they could.

[Amandera]

DO grants the True Power, I don't see the Finn ever managing that one. And there is no need, if TP needs to be used, Rand can do it through the link with Moridin.

[Aulduron]

Mierin was his lover, before she was Lanfear. If that much is known of her, they probably know about her part in the Bore. Moirane made many efforts to learn as much about the Forsaken as she could, from the White Tower, Black Hills, and Loial.

[Amandera]

I looked again. They don't even know that Mierin Eronaile was her name. This is from Moiraine's POV in tGH:

 

Lanfear. In the Old Tongue, Daughter of the Night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had taken for herself, unlike most of the Forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed. Some said she had really been the most powerful of the Forsaken, next to Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, but had kept her powers hidden. Too little was left from that time for any scholar to say for certain.

This seems to be the entirety of Moiraine's knowledge at the time of her meeting with Amyrlin. It's from directly her thoughts. It's unclear how much she learned after Fal Dara but I don't think it was substantial.

[Neophyte]

I looked again. They don't even know that Mierin Eronaile was her name. This is from Moiraine's POV in tGH:

 

Lanfear. In the Old Tongue, Daughter of the Night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had taken for herself, unlike most of the Forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed. Some said she had really been the most powerful of the Forsaken, next to Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, but had kept her powers hidden. Too little was left from that time for any scholar to say for certain.

This seems to be the entirety of Moiraine's knowledge at the time of her meeting with Amyrlin. It's from directly her thoughts. It's unclear how much she learned after Fal Dara but I don't think it was substantial.

 

Again, Moiraine has learned an awful lot, from a variety of sources, since The Great Hunt.

[Amandera]

About Lanfear? How could she possibly have? Her possible sources are libraries in Tear and Cairhien and the terangreal in Rhuidean. I know Aes Sedai aren't very popular in Tear but I doubt they'd deny access to one for their royal library. Cairhienin should simply consider themselves lucky that White Tower don't commandeer their entire library. It's not beyond them. And Rhuidean, well there is not much history to go through there. I just don't see Moiraine learning much about Lanfear specifically.

 

I forgot her three questions from Aelfinn. She may have learned something from them.

[78WARLOCK]

Let's see... she went thru the doorway grappling with Lanfear, it's possible she got some of her memories, ala Rand and Moridin, by having thier channeling (or just holding the source) cross wires. So that would be the memories. We might surmise one of her questions was how to get Rand to trust her, hence the bedding him would be disasterace. I personally feel one of her questions was how can he survive. Her actions, at times, would seem to indicate differently, but I think she genuinly cares for him/them. Being thrust into a role not of his choosing. She does show affection for Thom, which some think was not there before, but remember after Whitebridge when Rand tells her Thom died, she sort of has a " Oh, I don't think so" attitude. She cares but at this point she's all business.Then her last question might have been how to defeat the DO. Being the fighter she is I don't think sealing him back up would be in her nature. Defeat ! Victory, there is no second !

[Suttree]

Let's see... she went thru the doorway grappling with Lanfear, it's possible she got some of her memories, ala Rand and Moridin, by having thier channeling (or just holding the source) cross wires. So that would be the memories.

 

It only happened with Rand/Moridin because it was balefire and one of them was channeling the TP.

[78WARLOCK]

About Lanfear? How could she possibly have? Her possible sources are libraries in Tear and Cairhien and the terangreal in Rhuidean. I know Aes Sedai aren't very popular in Tear but I doubt they'd deny access to one for their royal library. Cairhienin should simply consider themselves lucky that White Tower don't commandeer their entire library. It's not beyond them. And Rhuidean, well there is not much history to go through there. I just don't see Moiraine learning much about Lanfear specifically.

Well she knew about Asmo. All along she knew by her letter to Rand. She had so many secrets who can really say. Even Perrin was always suprised by her knowlege at times about things that others had said was lost.

[78WARLOCK]

Let's see... she went thru the doorway grappling with Lanfear, it's possible she got some of her memories, ala Rand and Moridin, by having thier channeling (or just holding the source) cross wires. So that would be the memories.

 

It only happened with Rand/Moridin because it was balefire and one of them was channeling the TP.

Right. But like I said, what if it happened. We don't know anything yet.

[Durinax]

one could be as simple as give me knowledge of the AoL, and with Lanfear there, they could have dont a transfer

[Valley of Death]

wouldn't the finns want to help the light because if the DO is set free isnt there world done too?

Or at the very least there would be no humans to feed off of

[Amandera]

About Lanfear? How could she possibly have? Her possible sources are libraries in Tear and Cairhien and the terangreal in Rhuidean. I know Aes Sedai aren't very popular in Tear but I doubt they'd deny access to one for their royal library. Cairhienin should simply consider themselves lucky that White Tower don't commandeer their entire library. It's not beyond them. And Rhuidean, well there is not much history to go through there. I just don't see Moiraine learning much about Lanfear specifically.

Well she knew about Asmo. All along she knew by her letter to Rand. She had so many secrets who can really say. Even Perrin was always suprised by her knowlege at times about things that others had said was lost.

She is very smart, and she is very good at reading people. She figures out what happens around her. It's not the same though, any information about Lanfear is buried in history. She has to find a source and learn, and it's clear there is not much to find.

[TheAngryDruid]

I like the OPs logic about Moiraine asking about knowledge that would help with the LB since we know her rescue is important, what with "giving up half the light of the world to save the world" and all. That part is solid.

 

But Lanfear's memories? I have to side with those who say the chance she knows anything much about Meirin (even her name), are slim, and that she was the one to drill the Bore even less.

 

Moiraine want to use the TP? No way. Mo is the kind of person who would know how destructive to the Pattern its use it, she'd never go there. It would be like Faramir deciding to use the Ring for Gondor's defense instead of demonstrating that he knew that using the weapon of the enemy could lead to no good (and that is a shot at Peter Jackson, BTW).

 

We know she didn't ask for another object (naked save for the angreal), so she must have asked for knowledge of some type. Or if she did ask for something (aid, weaponry, etc) then it is to come at some later date. Still, I think knowledge is a safe bet.

 

Knowledge of how to seal the DO, repair the Bore, ensure the victory of the Light, prevent a 2nd breaking, ensure the dragon survives to do what must be done, etc would be high on the list.