Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[fionwe1987]

If Rand become AS he has to follow Egwene as his leader. Why would he do that especially when he is going to do things his way.

Why can't he do things his way? Elayne is Aes Sedai under Egwene, but she's Queen of Andor separately from Egwene's rule. Andor did not become Egwene's protectorate just because Elayne Sedai is under Egwene's rule.

 

Same with Rand's role as the Dragon Reborn. That has nothing to do with the Tower, and is not the Tower's to regulate or control. Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn is an ally of the Tower, and hold more power than it does. Rand Sedai would be an Aes Sedai. There's no necessary contradiction there.

[thisguy]

Rand is AS, he's just a different breed of AS. The problem with the present day AS accepting Rand as AS would be that as he is LTT, they might have to do what he wanted, not the other way around.

[triadruid]

According to their own rules, he would overshadow anyone but a Sitter, Amyrlin, or Keeper. In fact if the Towers become blended that may be reason enough for them to revise the idiotic "strength in the Power" heirarchy.

[thisguy]

According to their own rules, he would overshadow anyone but a Sitter, Amyrlin, or Keeper. In fact if the Towers become blended that may be reason enough for them to revise the idiotic "strength in the Power" heirarchy.

Was he The Leader or a Leader of the Age of Legends AS?

[yoniy0]

LTT was First Among Servants. When the War broke, his authority was nearly unrestricted, but other than that I don't think he ruled any more soundly than your average Amyrlin. Certainly, the will of the Hall did in fact impede him even in the execution of the war, so that should give us an idea of what his standing was.

 

On a different note, regarding the talk of 'stupid' questions, the distinction between addressing one's argument and one's self is easily abused, and I think we're getting to the point of doing so. Now, it seems both sides have said their piece regarding that particular theory and the principle in general, so everyone leave it at that.

[thisguy]

Thanks. Then I wouldn't see the reason for Rand Sedai to bend head to Egwene Sedai unless he came to that decision himself.

[Hopefire]

If Rand become AS he has to follow Egwene as his leader. Why would he do that especially when he is going to do things his way.

Why can't he do things his way? Elayne is Aes Sedai under Egwene, but she's Queen of Andor separately from Egwene's rule. Andor did not become Egwene's protectorate just because Elayne Sedai is under Egwene's rule.

 

Same with Rand's role as the Dragon Reborn. That has nothing to do with the Tower, and is not the Tower's to regulate or control. Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn is an ally of the Tower, and hold more power than it does. Rand Sedai would be an Aes Sedai. There's no necessary contradiction there.

 

Honestly, we've yet to really see how Elayne and Egwene's relationship will work in the long term. The closest real world parallel that I can think of would be the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope in medieval times. If they follow that model, things could be quite messy. Even if the two women get along quite well personally, there will be times where Andor's interests are not in accordance with Tar Valon's interests, and vice versa. At that point, then Egwene has a right to give lawful orders to Elayne Sedai, but not to Queen Elayne.

 

While Andor will undoubtably remain Tar Valon's ally, I highly doubt that Elayne will allow Tar Valon to dictate Andor's policy. The only question is whether or not Egwene would push the point. Depending on circumstance, it could lead to a formal break between Andor and the Tower - with the Kin and the Asha'man there, Andor could be the site of the WOT equivalent of the Protestant reformation, it could lead to a mere sore point in diplomatic relations, or it could lead to Elayne stepping down to put someone less conflicted on the throne. Or, obviously, Egwene might be smart enough to keep matters of church and state separate.

[fionwe1987]

Rand is AS, he's just a different breed of AS. The problem with the present day AS accepting Rand as AS would be that as he is LTT, they might have to do what he wanted, not the other way around.

Exactly. He outstrips all of them in strength, and is also King of Illian, and is Dragon Reborn. He's as well protected from interference as anyone can hope to be. Certainly more so than if he were not Aes Sedai.

 

If Rand become AS he has to follow Egwene as his leader. Why would he do that especially when he is going to do things his way.

Why can't he do things his way? Elayne is Aes Sedai under Egwene, but she's Queen of Andor separately from Egwene's rule. Andor did not become Egwene's protectorate just because Elayne Sedai is under Egwene's rule.

 

Same with Rand's role as the Dragon Reborn. That has nothing to do with the Tower, and is not the Tower's to regulate or control. Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn is an ally of the Tower, and hold more power than it does. Rand Sedai would be an Aes Sedai. There's no necessary contradiction there.

 

Honestly, we've yet to really see how Elayne and Egwene's relationship will work in the long term. The closest real world parallel that I can think of would be the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope in medieval times. If they follow that model, things could be quite messy. Even if the two women get along quite well personally, there will be times where Andor's interests are not in accordance with Tar Valon's interests, and vice versa. At that point, then Egwene has a right to give lawful orders to Elayne Sedai, but not to Queen Elayne.

 

While Andor will undoubtably remain Tar Valon's ally, I highly doubt that Elayne will allow Tar Valon to dictate Andor's policy. The only question is whether or not Egwene would push the point. Depending on circumstance, it could lead to a formal break between Andor and the Tower - with the Kin and the Asha'man there, Andor could be the site of the WOT equivalent of the Protestant reformation, it could lead to a mere sore point in diplomatic relations, or it could lead to Elayne stepping down to put someone less conflicted on the throne. Or, obviously, Egwene might be smart enough to keep matters of church and state separate.

Yup. That's exactly how the relationship should be. Egwene can't rule Andor by proxy just because Elayne is an Aes Sedai. On the flip side, they're going to have conflicts of interest the likes of Manetheren's queens and the Amyrlins of the day never faced: the Kin. Egwene is clearly irked by it, and Elayne's actions with the Kin can end up having seriously negative repercussions for Rand's alliance plans at Merrilor.

[thisguy]

Rand is AS, he's just a different breed of AS. The problem with the present day AS accepting Rand as AS would be that as he is LTT, they might have to do what he wanted, not the other way around.

Exactly. He outstrips all of them in strength, and is also King of Illian, and is Dragon Reborn. He's as well protected from interference as anyone can hope to be. Certainly more so than if he were not Aes Sedai.

 

If Rand become AS he has to follow Egwene as his leader. Why would he do that especially when he is going to do things his way.

Why can't he do things his way? Elayne is Aes Sedai under Egwene, but she's Queen of Andor separately from Egwene's rule. Andor did not become Egwene's protectorate just because Elayne Sedai is under Egwene's rule.

 

Same with Rand's role as the Dragon Reborn. That has nothing to do with the Tower, and is not the Tower's to regulate or control. Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn is an ally of the Tower, and hold more power than it does. Rand Sedai would be an Aes Sedai. There's no necessary contradiction there.

 

Honestly, we've yet to really see how Elayne and Egwene's relationship will work in the long term. The closest real world parallel that I can think of would be the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope in medieval times. If they follow that model, things could be quite messy. Even if the two women get along quite well personally, there will be times where Andor's interests are not in accordance with Tar Valon's interests, and vice versa. At that point, then Egwene has a right to give lawful orders to Elayne Sedai, but not to Queen Elayne.

 

While Andor will undoubtably remain Tar Valon's ally, I highly doubt that Elayne will allow Tar Valon to dictate Andor's policy. The only question is whether or not Egwene would push the point. Depending on circumstance, it could lead to a formal break between Andor and the Tower - with the Kin and the Asha'man there, Andor could be the site of the WOT equivalent of the Protestant reformation, it could lead to a mere sore point in diplomatic relations, or it could lead to Elayne stepping down to put someone less conflicted on the throne. Or, obviously, Egwene might be smart enough to keep matters of church and state separate.

Yup. That's exactly how the relationship should be. Egwene can't rule Andor by proxy just because Elayne is an Aes Sedai. On the flip side, they're going to have conflicts of interest the likes of Manetheren's queens and the Amyrlins of the day never faced: the Kin. Egwene is clearly irked by it, and Elayne's actions with the Kin can end up having seriously negative repercussions for Rand's alliance plans at Merrilor.

 

All true or possible. But, we'll see who's left alive after TG. The Kin may not even be an issue by that point.

[Maleshub]

If Rand become AS he has to follow Egwene as his leader. Why would he do that especially when he is going to do things his way.

Why can't he do things his way? Elayne is Aes Sedai under Egwene, but she's Queen of Andor separately from Egwene's rule. Andor did not become Egwene's protectorate just because Elayne Sedai is under Egwene's rule.

 

Same with Rand's role as the Dragon Reborn. That has nothing to do with the Tower, and is not the Tower's to regulate or control. Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn is an ally of the Tower, and hold more power than it does. Rand Sedai would be an Aes Sedai. There's no necessary contradiction there.

 

The WT was established as an all-female club (out of necessity). The WT's basis is rejection of all and any male channelers. The Amyrlin Seat's raising ceremony is evidence that gender is a criteria for being in the ceremony. So, Egwene cannot simply claim leadership over any male channeler. That relationship is still "under construction." In brief, Egwene's WT laws at the moment prevent her from being a leader over a male channeler.

[fionwe1987]

The WT was established as an all-female club (out of necessity). The WT's basis is rejection of all and any male channelers. The Amyrlin Seat's raising ceremony is evidence that gender is a criteria for being in the ceremony. So, Egwene cannot simply claim leadership over any male channeler. That relationship is still "under construction." In brief, Egwene's WT laws at the moment prevent her from being a leader over a male channeler.

This entire thing is dependent on saidin being tainted, which is no longer true.

[TootThatHorn]

The WT was established as an all-female club (out of necessity). The WT's basis is rejection of all and any male channelers. The Amyrlin Seat's raising ceremony is evidence that gender is a criteria for being in the ceremony. So, Egwene cannot simply claim leadership over any male channeler. That relationship is still "under construction." In brief, Egwene's WT laws at the moment prevent her from being a leader over a male channeler.

This entire thing is dependent on saidin being tainted, which is no longer true.

 

"Was" dependent...I may be a little surprised if we see what happens with the BT post TG, but I really don't see them bowing down and being incorporated in to the WT once it's all said and done. If anything it will be a mutual rule of channelers, with an intertwining of bonding and an equal say in matters.

[fionwe1987]

"Was" dependent...I may be a little surprised if we see what happens with the BT post TG, but I really don't see them bowing down and being incorporated in to the WT once it's all said and done. If anything it will be a mutual rule of channelers, with an intertwining of bonding and an equal say in matters.

Well of course it won't be a bowing down to the WT. The Asha'man aren't going to join the WT leaving it intact and as it is. Its going to involve a huge shift in attitudes, be the kind of change that comes once an Age. The White Tower won't be the White Tower as we know it when the Asha'man join.

[Hopefire]

I don't think that the Asha'man are necessarily joining the White Tower. As I indicated above, with the Asha'man and the Kin in Andor, I could certainly see a Protestant-analog set of channelers teaching men and women, while the Catholic-analog White Tower allows only women (just as the Catholic church allows only male Priests). Just like men and women are not equal in the many real world religious institutions, I think that it's definitely possible that the White Tower may not change its policies, and that men may never be a part of the White Tower as the institutional equals of Aes Sedai.

 

I think that it's significantly more likely that women will become Asha'man in the Fourth Age then that men will become Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

Just like men and women are not equal in the many real world religious institutions, I think that it's definitely possible that the White Tower may not change its policies, and that men may never be a part of the White Tower as the institutional equals of Aes Sedai.

 

I think that it's significantly more likely that women will become Asha'man in the Fourth Age then that men will become Aes Sedai.

 

Well the glimpses we see of "Great Arvalon" would seem to indicate otherwise. RJ has set us up for the men and women joining. A new BT could very well be raised on the grounds of Elaida's palace. The most likely course IMO is Logain and Eggy leading the men and women into the future together as equals.

 

As an aside I'm curious as to what you have read that makes you think the women would become Asha'man? Is there some foreshadowing I missed?

[Hopefire]

The whole bit about sisters walking the grounds of the Black Tower, as well as the members of the Black Tower that have not been turned by Taim being notably more welcoming towards Sisters than the Tower has been towards men who can channel to date. Factor in the women who follow Rand and who have been associating with Asha'man being significantly more closely associated with Rand's faction than the Tower, the existence of alternate schools for women to learn to channel, and I think that it's significantly more likely that we'll see a decentralization of channelers rather than a centralization in Tar Valon. Plus, in Aviendha's vision the Black Tower was still clearly a separate entity.

 

So far as I recall, Great Arvalon was just a name from a rhyme in LOC. It doesn't imply in any way that men and women will both go to the White Tower, only the probability that Tar Valon or a successor city will be a great city. To put it one way, if someone said in 1066 that New York would be the greatest city in the world, the information available to someone in England would indicate York in northern England would likely burn down, be rebuilt, and be the seat of a powerful lord. For all we know, Great Arvalon is a city yet to even be founded.

 

And finally, the closest real world parallel is probably the various splits of the Catholic Church; Andor is basically WOT Germany/England, the series takes place in a renaissance-like time, the White Tower is in a lot of ways a mirror image of the Catholic Church, and I don't expect that the parallels will break down in the Fourth Age. One of the basic ideas of the Wheel of Time is the same conflicts and stories being expressed in new ways, and the split between the White Tower and the Black seems like the repetition of the Reformation, and possibly counter-reformation.

 

So, both in-universe indications and larger meta-indications.

[Suttree]

The whole bit about sisters walking the grounds of the Black Tower, as well as the members of the Black Tower that have not been turned by Taim being notably more welcoming towards Sisters than the Tower has been towards men who can channel to date.

 

Hmm interesting spin on things however unlikely it would seem. That part of the prophecy could already be said to have been fulfilled(if not it will be soon when Taim gets taken down and Pevara has her moment of awesome)and the second has little bearing on the situation seeing as how the groups will be much closer after working together at TG. I really don't think we can call anything mentioned in your post foreshadowing.

 

Factor in the women who follow Rand and who have been associating with Asha'man being significantly more closely associated with Rand's faction than the Tower, the existence of alternate schools for women to learn to channel, and I think that it's significantly more likely that we'll see a decentralization of channelers rather than a centralization in Tar Valon.

 

First off the women with Rand will go back to the WT post TG, there is nothing to indicate they are thinking of spinning off and going independent. Also what alternate schools are you referring to? The other cultures? They are all tied together with the exchange program at this point. That move will foster more unity and understanding amongst the channeling women than anything that has come before. Again it is a pretty cool concept to conetemplate but I just can't wrap my head around the WT not integrating fully with how much RJ built up the whole unity and greatest works done together angle. There is no way the WT could stay relevant without men in the picture. We also have Eggy's vision in Tar of the window pain at the WT changing to have the men back involved. That along with Great Arvalon are both decent hints.

 

Plus, in Aviendha's vision the Black Tower was still clearly a separate entity.

 

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

[thisguy]

I definitely don't think that Avi's vision will come to pass. Whoever brought up the fact that she had the dreamer terangreal brought up a good point - although, we don't know if she had it on her (though, she probably did) or if that affected the Rhuidean terangreal.

 

On the other hand, I thought like it seems most do, that the AS and Ashaman would somehow merge - the Greater Avalon thing seems to give at least some reason to believe that.

 

However, it is interesting to think of other possible circumstances. Many of these women are now bonded to Ashaman (I mean the AS bonded by, not the ones who did the bonding). It may play out that some men don't want to go to Tar Valon. It may play out that they decide to keep their own organization. In that case, it also may play out that they marry or have daughters who want to stay at the Black Tower - or whatever it's called later on. And, some of their wives and daughters may become channelers and may wish to be separate from the WT. As others have said, the WT's primary purpose will be gone (the LB come and gone) and people may wish to form their own channeling societies. The BT being hundreds strong would have the power to protect them. Who knows? It's interesting to think of the possibility, though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It would be an absolutely genius move if Egwene managed to get the White Tower to acknowledge Rand as Aes Sedai.

 

It would start healing SO MANY problems in regards to equality, unity, persecution etc...

 

Having the White Tower accept a male channeller into its ranks would do a whole world of good when the masses see it happen. They don't trust Asha'man, but the Tower (however weary people are of them) is respected and heeded. (in those places where they are hated/distrusted, they were always going to hate Asha'man anyway).

 

The only problem is that I cannot see a reasonable scenario with Egwene managing to do this. I mean, she could just proclaim it and to hell with the Hall, but it wouldn't be very effective. I suppose ta'veren and the will of the Pattern could help it along, with AS randomly agreeing to it, but that would be kinda cheap.

 

I am not sure how the Tower can be convinced to agree to such a thing at this point in time, perhaps after the LB and the deeds of Asha'man are known and respected (and perhaps the threat of the DO is not looming) but not now, not with Rand.

 

I would love to see it, it would be extraordinary, but I can't see it happening without some kind of "trick".

[fionwe1987]

It would be an absolutely genius move if Egwene managed to get the White Tower to acknowledge Rand as Aes Sedai.

 

It would start healing SO MANY problems in regards to equality, unity, persecution etc...

 

Having the White Tower accept a male channeller into its ranks would do a whole world of good when the masses see it happen. They don't trust Asha'man, but the Tower (however weary people are of them) is respected and heeded. (in those places where they are hated/distrusted, they were always going to hate Asha'man anyway).

 

The only problem is that I cannot see a reasonable scenario with Egwene managing to do this. I mean, she could just proclaim it and to hell with the Hall, but it wouldn't be very effective. I suppose ta'veren and the will of the Pattern could help it along, with AS randomly agreeing to it, but that would be kinda cheap.

 

I am not sure how the Tower can be convinced to agree to such a thing at this point in time, perhaps after the LB and the deeds of Asha'man are known and respected (and perhaps the threat of the DO is not looming) but not now, not with Rand.

 

I would love to see it, it would be extraordinary, but I can't see it happening without some kind of "trick".

Well, the 'tricks' are in place. One, the Amyrlin can declare anything. She made Nynaeve, Elaine, etc. Aes Sedai in this way. For another, Egwene just got full control of dealing with the rulers of the world. What if she argues naming Rand Aes Sedai is a political move, akin to the Ring being given to the Queens of Andor, whether they can channel or not?

 

Again, not saying it will happen. But there's plenty of ways for it to.

 

Hopefire: The problem with that scenario is that there is nothing inherently anti-male in the White Tower, except the Red Ajah which was just recently cut down in importance. The Aes Sedai were all women because of the taint, which they all now believe to have been cleansed away. Right there, the only obstacle to men joining the Tower is gone. People focus on the anti-male stance of the Tower, but forget that the Greens and the Blues are anything but anti-men. The Browns will slaver at the chance for the new kinds of research possible with men, too. The Tower has plenty of people who'll be glad to have men back as Aes Sedai. They may not be a majority, yet, but Egwene conveniently inducted new Novices who've married and had children, and thus don't have anywhere close to the same level of distrust of men.

[MasterAblar]

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

 

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

[yoniy0]

Well, the 'tricks' are in place. One, the Amyrlin can declare anything. She made Nynaeve, Elaine, etc. Aes Sedai in this way.

No, she caved on that one; her new AS still had to be tested and sworn in on the OR.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Technically, she CAN do so, but I doubt she would remain Amyrlin for long (realistically) if she randomly accepts MEN into the White Tower as Aes Sedai without consulting the Hall.

 

I like the idea about the whole Andor - ceremonial position precedent. That could work out well, although I think that it would be tough.

 

It isn't so much that it can't be done, more that I feel it would need to be done well to make it realistic. I hope it is something like Egwene's War Declaration stunt, not just a random blitz like the "not secret meetings".

[Fred Cauthon]

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

 

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

Well for one in Avi's vision the WT did fall to the Seanchan. I don't know if this is directly related to the Aiel or not, but it was said by someone in her vision that when the WT fell to the Seanchan the Aiel lost their only allies.

 

Fred

[fionwe1987]

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

How would it not affect them? If there's to be lasting peace with the Seanchan, that affects them. If there's to be all out war, that affects them. The White Tower is ruled by a woman who cares deeply for the Aiel and identifies with them very strongly. You think her actions won't be affected by news of what Aviendha saw?