Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[Ian Ohlander]

Very well said. That being the case, then, the real question is what is Egwene going to do? Will she try to be forceful with him or will she listen to his explanation? Now that his decision has been made and he is consciousnly one with the land to a miraculous degree, now that his very presence inspires people and makes them physically feel better, I imagine those followers of his- the Aiel, the Tairens, the Illianers and the Borderlanders- will trust him to make the right decision. Even Elayne is on the fence. Nynaeve definitely is on his side. With all of that, what will she do? Is it in her to acquiesce? Not in general, but in this specific instance? And to this man in particular.

 

The thing that she seems to be forgetting is that the bore was open for a century and the DO was still not free. His influence was bad, of course (it wasn't called the collapse for nothing), but it took a while for them to even know what had happened. And Rand is going to be going to Shayol Ghul right after breaking the seals. So it's not like there's going to be a lot of time before he does whatever he's planning. And while he's said he did not have all the answers, that implies he has some. Obviously, like having Egwene doing research off screen in order to create tension, BS is playing his cards close the chest, as RJ did with Egwene's plan to cuendillar ( a new verb) the harbor chain. Rand asked Min to find the answer for him, but I'm betting he has more in mind than just breaking the seals and hoping it comes to him. He's smarter than that. Most likely he wont break the seals until he knows what to do to fix it.

 

Will that be enough for her? Will she trust him? She vacillates on that point horribly. One minute thinking he could be trusted with the world, then saying she would stop him. One moment say that he's changed, that he's, as the Aiel say, "embraced death" and the next moment she's composing a forceful letter since she thinks he doesn't seem to respond to anything else.

[Ian Ohlander]

But why the heck are we debating Egwene here? What happened to that thread on the general board?

 

Sorry, I made an off hand comment and started this (fionwe, maybe we could take this to the Egwene thread on the general board. I am interested in hearing what you have to say.) But at the same time it seems to be moving back into a discussion about the actual chap 1- her letter and the upcoming meeting with Rand for example. The past keeps coming up, I think, because she's all over the place in her view of Rand, and I'm trying to understand what she is going to do.

[Hopefire]

IMO, here's how the meeting will go down:

 

 

-Rand will NOT lead with his intention to break the Seals, he's going to lead with his attempt to build an alliance with the world leaders.

 

-It will be Egwene that brings up the issue of the Seals, and she'll attempt to pull a “no one agrees with you, Rand” and find that Perrin, Elayne, and others are one the fence, not wanting conflict.

 

-Elayne will suggest to Egwene making Aes Sedai support of this alliance contigent on Rand handing over the Seals.

 

-Rand, leery of what happened in the last Age, will be seriously hesitant to hand over the Seals. Perrin will suggest to Rand that it's a fair compromise.

 

-Rand will agree to hand Egwene the Seals, with the caveat that Min can act as his proxy and have the Seals broken at a time that she feels is appropriate.

 

-The White Tower and the other nations agree to the Dragon Peace, Rand hands over the Seals to Egwene, Min follows Egwene around for much of the rest of the book.

[driedraspberry]

driedraspberry...please consider visiting Tropes.com or any of the other authorized Tropes-Definition sites on the net and review what they have to say concerning "Mary Sue." Afterwords, I have no doubt you will see how silly it is to make a claim that Elayne Trakand is NOT the major Mary Sue of WOT.

 

 

Fish

 

I assume you mean tvtropes. For the record I don't think either Elayne or Egwene are full blast Mary Sues, but of the two Egwene bears much more resemblance to the trope.

 

Some fun points in regards to common Mary Sue characteristics.

 

Highly persuasive, regardless of the actual content of their conversations. Everyone finds her opinions are just better than their own - even when they're usually stubborn bastards. This is especially likely in an Author Tract.

 

Her "major flaws" will be stubbornness and a bad temper. These will only ever help her, never hurt her — because she's always right, so whatever cause she dedicates herself to with such stubbornness will be a good cause, and whoever she loses her temper with will deserve it.

 

Regardless of what skill level the canon characters have established, she might just simply be better than them, often in ways that do not make sense. See also: Always Someone Better, God Mode Sue.

• Not to mention that if she isn't already skilled at something, she'll pick it up in a fraction of the time required.
  

Egwene and politics to the max.

 

She gets special treatment in-universe. The classic example is the Harry Potter "exchange student" fic where a sixteen-year-old American girl enters Hogwarts as a sixth year, is immediately given a spot on the Quidditch team and doesn't have to wear the uniform. Chances are good that Sue will be making all the calls that should be somebody else's prerogative; she's probably the one telling the Sorting Hat which house she's going to be in.

She will often suffer from Special Snowflake Syndrome, having some trait or backstory that sets her apart from her race.

That goes for both of them, but eighteen year old accepted Amyrlin Seat wins out.

 

Some Wish Fulfillment with a character you think is hot isn't that bad. But Mary Sue seems to grab their attention straight away. Even if they already have a stable love interest in canon, that relationship will be treated as either non-existent, or the couple will be split up in some way.

Resemble the situation with sparkly Edward Galad. He might not have had a love interest in person form, but according to Gawyn at least his attentions for Egwene were first of it's kind. lol

 

She's The Chosen One. Even if the canon hero is already The Chosen One, she either 'shares' the position or just steals it away from them.

 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...onMarySueTraits

[yoniy0]

Okay, quite frankly, that's absurd. I wasn't familiar with the concept, but I'm convinced both characters weren't dropped in out of nowhere, both have a credible back-story that doesn't give them any special abilities, neither outshines the rest of the super-kids (can you seriously say Egwene's cooler than Nynaenve? Never mind her position in the WT, would Nynaeve even want that? Would she be any good at it?). Neither is so charismatically convincing as to encounter no disagreement (quite far from it, except certain elements of Egwene's arc in ToM, which were ridiculous even without needing a term like this).

 

Are they both hot? Yes. Are they your average dream-girl? Most certainly not, as evident in the sheer amount of people who simply can stand either of them.

 

But that's all quite beside the point. Can we at least make an effort to find something in the first chapter we want to discuss here?

[Sid]

Well, something from the first chapter I noticed was that Rand was using a light in the shape of a globe like all the women channelers do. Clearly, as shown in TSR 'Through the Doorway' the weave he uses (and I assume all male channelers are similar) is like the flame of a torch rather than the globe.

 

 

Edit: neat, I hit 1000 posts at some point there (at Stone Dog's Hold I happened to quit posting at 999... for some reason I can't remember. But I remember 999 )

[The Fisher King]

Those are some great quotes and descriptions. I guess its just a matter of perspective. Elayne will always scream Mary Sue to me while Egwene - despite all her faults - not so much. Its all good. Different opinions make the world go round :)

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Well, something from the first chapter I noticed was that Rand was using a light in the shape of a globe like all the women channelers do. Clearly, as shown in TSR 'Through the Doorway' the weave he uses (and I assume all male channelers are similar) is like the flame of a torch rather than the globe.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Problem is, I don't recall having seen Rand do anything similar since Asmo trained him. He might've adopted the normal forms, I guess...

[Sid]

Well, something from the first chapter I noticed was that Rand was using a light in the shape of a globe like all the women channelers do. Clearly, as shown in TSR 'Through the Doorway' the weave he uses (and I assume all male channelers are similar) is like the flame of a torch rather than the globe.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Problem is, I don't recall having seen Rand do anything similar since Asmo trained him. He might've adopted the normal forms, I guess...

I always took it as another way of showing that men and women did things differently with the Power, like Rand's discussion with Egwene and Elayne let on a few chapters before that. I don't remember if he ever made globes after Asmo's training or not.

[Hopefire]

Well, something from the first chapter I noticed was that Rand was using a light in the shape of a globe like all the women channelers do. Clearly, as shown in TSR 'Through the Doorway' the weave he uses (and I assume all male channelers are similar) is like the flame of a torch rather than the globe.

 

I could have sworn he used a globe before, but you're likely correct. Still, he now has Lews Therin's knowledge; he could definitely just be using something better than the crude weave he used while learning.

[Sid]

I stand corrected. He did it once in LoC ch 28 Letters

 

Saidin made a globe of light, Fire and Air, to illuminate the way out of the throne room.

 

Which does happen after Asmo taught him, obviously.

[driedraspberry]

It's all good. I had to defend Elayne. :) Overall I do think RJ does a pretty good job with his female characters.

 

As for the first chapter and the Egwene vs Rand thing, I do hope that it's all leading somewhere um less expected. It's good to see Egwene's being a lot smarter than what TOM alluded to, but I'm not convinced she and Rand are going to reconcile and work together so soon. Elaida foretold the Amrylin's anger a long time ago, I can only assume RJ had something very interesting in mind.

[Terez]

Well, something from the first chapter I noticed was that Rand was using a light in the shape of a globe like all the women channelers do. Clearly, as shown in TSR 'Through the Doorway' the weave he uses (and I assume all male channelers are similar) is like the flame of a torch rather than the globe.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Problem is, I don't recall having seen Rand do anything similar since Asmo trained him. He might've adopted the normal forms, I guess...

 

I like the weave he used near the end of the Battle of Cairhien. I think something similar might come in useful while he's dead; I hope he teaches it to someone. :)

[The Fisher King]

Min, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Berelain, Dyelin, Gabrelle, Cadsuane and Teslyn are the only (significant) female characters in the entire series I can even remotely stand.

 

 

Fish

[Bluedust9]

I stand corrected. He did it once in LoC ch 28 Letters

 

Saidin made a globe of light, Fire and Air, to illuminate the way out of the throne room.

 

Which does happen after Asmo taught him, obviously.

 

This really should be pasted for most of the bitching on this site.

[Sid]

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

 

I would have made the same post if RJ was still alive and writing this. Using ideal seek showed one entire instance in the whole series that showed it was inaccurate, a very unmemorable line from the middle of LoC I forgot about. /shrug

[Bluedust9]

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

 

I would have made the same post if RJ was still alive and writing this. Using ideal seek showed one entire instance in the whole series that showed it was inaccurate, a very unmemorable line from the middle of LoC I forgot about. /shrug

 

Oh I wasn't singling you out, I'm sorry.

[The Fisher King]

Yeah, Sid - Chuck wasn't singling YOU out ;-) ;-) ;-)

 

 

Fish

[FarShainMael]

I've just caught up with the rest of you so haven't read most of this thread - so sorry if it's already been mentioned but I just had to post this..

 

“We have unfortunately found nothing pertinent in your library ter’angreal.” The statue of the smiling bearded man had nearly caused a riot in the Tower; every sister had wanted to read the thousands of books that it held.

 

[Kestrel]

I've just caught up with the rest of you so haven't read most of this thread - so sorry if it's already been mentioned but I just had to post this..

 

“We have unfortunately found nothing pertinent in your library ter’angreal.” The statue of the smiling bearded man had nearly caused a riot in the Tower; every sister had wanted to read the thousands of books that it held.

 

Yes, this is what's referred to elsewhere as the Kindle ter'angreal, made in the shape of a RJ statuette.

 

I wonder if it is a Brandon or an RJ idea, seeing as how RJ died 2 months before the first Kindle was released.

[Maleshub]

Wow, I go away for a few days and come back to read chapter one. A very nice surprise.

 

Sorry that i haven't read the whole thread and might be repeating a few things already discussed. But here goes:

 

- It was a very nice reading. And as expected, it was, in a way, a fast-paced, compact piece of writing.

- It is looking like Talmanes will live (thank you Nynaeve). And Egwene shows that she isn't an Amyrlin without feelings for the people. Her link with Nynaeve was nice.

- Rand and his three women are in the same place; and they'll probably meet with Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Egwene to formulate the attack plan on Shayol Ghul. Will Aviendha have time to do anything with Rand except warn him to take better care of the Aiel?

- Egwene is sending Bryne and part of his army to Caemlyn. Will Rand convince her and Elayne not to fall for Demandred's ploy?

 

It was an eye-opener that Rand blames himself for Demandred going over to the Shadow. Will he redeem himself and correct that mistake? Wonderful twist of events if that happens.

 

Thank you, Tor, Brandon, and Team Jordan for this very pleasant surprise.

[Elisaroth]

if rand dont deal whit Demandred army then blight will become anvil and andor force hammer they eventually need deal whit that situation.

 

reason why egwene and etc turn more willing to rand suggestion can always blamed for 2 strong ta'verien being near. even tho if its relay fix of plot.

[Maleshub]

If Mat brings the Seanchan from the south through Illian, then he will clean up the Shadow's infiltration in Andor.

[NitroS]

did luckers post his "thorough review" of chapter 1 yet?

[UncleButcher1980]

did luckers post his "thorough review" of chapter 1 yet?

 

I'm waiting for that as well. Hurry up, Luckers.