Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[thisguy]

No mention of the biggest ret-con of all, re: the gholam?

 

The stylistic differences between Jordan and Sanderson didn't bother me, or even stand out, at all when I read TGS and TOM. Now that I've re-read 9 of the books in the past 9 months it's jarring. The thing that stuck out to me that hasn't been mentioned (at least directly) is the difference in dialogue. Sanderson's characters tend to speak in very logical terms (this is even more evident in The Way of Kings). But people don't really talk like that (other than me, at least), and Jordan's dialogue wasn't like that. The nature of finishing someone else's work highlights Sanderson's flaws as a writer. If Jordan had finished Sanderson's work, his flaws would have been highlighted. As it is, it's easy to forget his weaknesses, including those Sanderson doesn't have.

 

I wouldn't characterize the Wheel of Time as juvenile. It's plainly written and fantasy, but that doesn't mean it's not serious literature. I have a much greater appreciation for that re-reading the books now that I am much older and (allegedly) wiser.

 

I like your analysis very much.

 

There are certain things that are just completely stylistic. I read the last 3-5 books (I really don't remember anymore) without a reread of the preceding books. I'm past 400 pgs in TGS now after doing a reread over the last 10 weeks or so. One of the biggest style differences I noticed almost right away is "for". BS uses the word "for" instead of "because" quite often, and when reading the books back to back it is a bit of a slap in the face. I think many of the gripes people have with BS's work may come from the fact that he just doesn't write like RJ. Two different styles.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Egwene: Rand intends to enter the Last Battle and break the seals immediately, but that is a dreadful idea. We have an extended war ahead of us. Freeing the Dark One now will strengthen the forces of the Shadow and weaken us.

Did Rand say, think, or hint at this anywhere? My inclimation was that he always intended to break the seals just moments before his strike at Shayol Ghul and remake the prison using a completely different method than LTT's. Which makes perfect sense to me. And why would they possibly want to first fight the war and then strike SG? The moment you figure out how to seal the Bore (I think Moiraine will be coming with answers from the Eelfinn), attack Shayol Ghul with all the strength you can muster and end this war. That way, even if your enemy completely wipes you out, you've won. And the enemy will know that. That's pretty bad for morale, I'd say.

 

 

Edit: by the way, if Rand does indeed plan to do this then I have to agree with Egwene that it's a crackbrained scheme.

Rand told Egwene that he was going off to Shayol Ghul immediately after Merrilor. He also thinks the same the day before Merrilor. He plans to go to SG, break the Seals, and confront the DO. Except that he has no plan for this confrontation, and still isn't even sure if they should reseal the DO ot take more... drastic measures. His insistence that breaking the Seals right away without a plan to reseal the DO is mystifying. Its almost too stupid, and maybe we don't know something he knows.

 

I think this chapter may have given us the answer. There is that prophecy of the land being one with the Dragon and this chapter he felt that earthquake like a muscle spasm. Apparently that prophecy is to be taken literally since I think Rand is feeling the effect the DO has on the world on his own body. Rand felt the Last Battle coming and he may actually know or a atleast a very good guess at how long he and the world can survive the Last Battle even if the Dark One doesn't break free from his prison.

 

I think that could actually be a really cool idea. Rand mirroring the wounds the world is taking, I mean. The wound in his side is the equivalent of the wound Shayol Ghul is on the world. And as the earth gets ravaged Rand gets more and and more injuries. Somewhere in Shinar the earth breaks open and Rand gets a cut on his face, Tar Valon sinks and he gets a wound on his chest etc. It would be a fitting price to pay for the incredible power he's wielding right now.

 

Independently of this, Egwene assesses that there's a lot of the LB to go. One major reason is likely because all the previous confrontations between humanity and the DO lasted for hundreds of years, not a few days. While this one may not last for years, I really doubt its a matter of a few days either. And thus, Egwene believes that its a silly idea to break the Seals right away.

 

When she learns Rand doesn't have a plan to reseal the DO, her stance will likely solidify further, and she'll probably get the support of a lot more people.

 

Wrong word, she doesn't think it's silly she thinks it's reckless and far too dangerous. I don't think Egwene can go up against the ta'veren influence. Judging from what Rand said to Perrin he's willing to compromise to some degree, meaning he's willing to extend the deadline to create unity, but that's all. The question is how long he'll be willing to extend it and since the seals are in his hand and not Egwene's once that deadline is up and there is still no better way found he'll go do the dangerous thing he alluded to in this chapter and Egwene will have to get out of the way or run over.

 

It would make for an epic scene. Rand covered in wounds that can't be healed as the Last Battle ravages the world having delayed for days because he promised those days to Egwene while Egwene, Min and everybody else is frantically looking for an alternative and if Rand dies the world gets destroyed though I guess the DO still wouldn't be free.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: can delete

[thisguy]

Whatever Egwene's original intention, whatever Rand's original intention, the Pattern is going to be trying to guide them towards common ground. Rand may have been intending to immediately break the Seals, Egwene may have intended that no Seal breaking should ever occur. If neither if those is what the Pattern needs, neither is likely to happen, and they'll find the middle ground that they're already leaning towards.

I don't know about this. I think preserving unity is entirely up to the people. Look at LTT's arrogance and despair, and Latra Posae Decume's dogged insistence in a stupid plan in the Age of Legends. They split the Light's forces right in the middle. It's possible to happen again, even though I don't think it will this time.

I don't think it will either. Wasn't her plan to use the Choedan Kal to make a shield around the bore and then fight the forces of the DO in military campaigns?

While the choedan kal thing isn't a horrible idea when you're out of ideas, it is a horrible idea. If anything we've learned that no matter the age, AS are not much different than other people. Could you trust those using the CK to keep the DO trapped forever? Doubtful.

[fionwe1987]

Well, what you said is pretty similar to my thoughts. I'm just saying all of a sudden Egwene got an idea in her head, when Rand clearly implied that he'll do the almost opposite thing. It doesn't make sense.

I don't think he did. He said he'd go to SG and Break the Seals. He said nothing about resealing the Bore. He didn't say he had a plan for it, and when Egwene said there was a risk of the DO getting free, he said it was a risk they had to take. If he had a plan for immediately resealing the DO (which we know he doesn't), he would have told her that, when asked about the risk of the DO getting free.

 

That he didn't, and that he clearly didn't have a plan for the aftermath of Breaking the Seals is clearly what makes Egwene believe this is a crackbrained scheme.

By the way I could argue that entire Third Age has been a confrontation between Light and Shadow and Tarmon Gaidon is just the peak of that confrontation. The prison was weak, Shadow has always had a considerable support among the people, there has always been the Blight. Ishamael was free and has been preparing for Tarmon Gaidon the entire age. It's clear DO has touched the world, albeit in a very limited way. Two times in the Third Age people had a chance for a long-term peace. The first is Compact of the Ten Nations which Shadow broke with Trolloc Wars, the second is Hawkwing's time which arguably Ishamael countered by getting rid of his heirs and starting War of the Hundred Years. DO never gave civilization a chance to rise much or have unity, in fact it pretty much always went downwards in my opinion.

That's fine, but nothing that has happened in the past few years qualifies for the kind of extreme destruction that's associated with the Last Battle. Humanity is supposed to reach the brink of destruction. While things are bad now, they're nowhere near bad enough.

[randsc]

I still say there's a fair chance they're already broken.

 

And if not, I say that the "you could break this one with a hammer" was foreshadowing, and Perrin breaks the last one.

 

Either way, the Seals WILL be broken, whether Egwene's position hardens and she gets more people behind her or not. This is kinda like watching a TiVo'd football game when you already know the final score.

[Hopefire]

Whatever Egwene's original intention, whatever Rand's original intention, the Pattern is going to be trying to guide them towards common ground. Rand may have been intending to immediately break the Seals, Egwene may have intended that no Seal breaking should ever occur. If neither if those is what the Pattern needs, neither is likely to happen, and they'll find the middle ground that they're already leaning towards.

I don't know about this. I think preserving unity is entirely up to the people. Look at LTT's arrogance and despair, and Latra Posae Decume's dogged insistence in a stupid plan in the Age of Legends. They split the Light's forces right in the middle. It's possible to happen again, even though I don't think it will this time.

 

That's actually one of the best arguments for how the Pattern subtly pushes people to where they need to go.

 

LPD opposed LTT's plan, and her opposition meant that only one side of the One Power was tainted. Her alternative strategy meant that in the next age the tools to fix the Taint were on hand. The way in which the Taint drove Rand insane might have been a benefit to the Light overall, as Rand himself thinks. The Pattern is basically outplaying the Dark One every step of the way, playing a long game.

 

Egwene's position will be what it needs to be. Rand's will be what it needs to be. The Pattern will make sure that that's the case.

[thisguy]

Meh, it was a ploy to increase tension as we have seen.

 

We get both sides acting up in ToM to increase tension.

 

One done apparently intentionally, and not having come up with a plan yet.

 

The other we just don't get anything at all other than a general "opposition to whatever the other side is".

 

As we see in the first chapter, that tension is mostly non-existent.

 

We get the one side do a complete 180 and suddenly revealing actual thoughts.

 

The other had no intention of making a fight of it, and purposely mislead the other into gathering people.

 

The REAL problem will be stopping everyone from running off before the "unity" is established. That is the main concern here, the one thing Rand is dogged about. The price for going to Shayol Ghul.

 

I agree. I think a lot of it is just for literary tension purposes. You could also argue that Rand did it to make sure Egwene and the Tower forces would show up where he wanted them to.

 

I found the chapter exciting. I've always loved the "various forces coming together to fight evil" shtick.

[MasterAblar]

That he didn't, and that he clearly didn't have a plan for the aftermath of Breaking the Seals is clearly what makes Egwene believe this is a crackbrained scheme.

 

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

[fionwe1987]

I think this chapter may have given us the answer. There is that prophecy of the land being one with the Dragon and this chapter he felt that earthquake like a muscle spasm. Apparently that prophecy is to be taken literally since I think Rand is feeling the effect the DO has on the world on his own body. Rand felt the Last Battle coming and he may actually know or a atleast a very good guess at how long he and the world can survive the Last Battle even if the Dark One doesn't break free from his prison.

Yes, but the world will be able to survive a lot less if the Seals are removed. That's Egwene point. Do it if you have to, but right before you seal him back. Why give the world more scars than necessary?

I think that could actually be a really cool idea. Rand mirroring the wounds the world is taking, I mean. The wound in his side is the equivalent of the wound Shayol Ghul is on the world. And as the earth gets ravaged Rand gets more and and more injuries. Somewhere in Shinar the earth breaks open and Rand gets a cut on his face, Tar Valon sinks and he gets a wound on his chest etc. It would be a fitting price to pay for the incredible power he's wielding right now.

I don't think we'll see physical wounds. But I do think he'll feel pain, and be scarred mentally each time something like this happens.

 

Wrong word, she doesn't think it's silly she thinks it's reckless and far too dangerous.

Yeah sorry, that was Elayne in ToM.

I don't think Egwene can go up against the ta'veren influence.

She has done so twice. In LoC, she embraced saidar and avoided his influence. In ToM, she alone could speak to him while the entire Hall was silenced by his ta'veren influence. And Tuon has also resisted him, when he was actively trying to use it to force her to bend. It seems clear that strong personalities can resist the influence of ta'veren.

Judging from what Rand said to Perrin he's willing to compromise to some degree, meaning he's willing to extend the deadline to create unity, but that's all. The question is how long he'll be willing to extend it and since the seals are in his hand and not Egwene's once that deadline is up and there is still no better way found. He'll go do the dangerous thing he alluded to in this chapter and Egwene will have to get out of the way or run over.

He'll take her advice and wait, I think.

It would make for an epic scene. Rand covered in wounds that can't be healed as the Last Battle ravages the world having delayed for days because he promised those days to Egwene while Egwene, Min and everybody else is frantically looking for an alternative and if Rand dies the world gets destroyed though I guess the DO still wouldn't be free.

Dunno if that makes sense. If the DO can simply kill him by chipping away at the world, then this battle was lost long ago.

[fionwe1987]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

I agree. I think a lot of it is just for literary tension purposes. You could also argue that Rand did it to make sure Egwene and the Tower forces would show up where he wanted them to.

 

 

Exactly, which is what makes the whole thing annoying. The story and characters are purposely compromised to manipulate the reader into false assumptions for a little bit of extra tension - which will lead to a huge let down or characters acting totally out of character.

 

That he didn't, and that he clearly didn't have a plan for the aftermath of Breaking the Seals is clearly what makes Egwene believe this is a crackbrained scheme.

 

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

[thisguy]

Maybe Moridin will give him an idea of what to do. It's been said throughout the books that the DR has gone to the Darkside before but it's never mentioned if Ish has ever gone over.

[MasterAblar]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

 

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

 

When did Rand ever tell Egwene he was going to face the DO without a plan?

[thisguy]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

 

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

 

When did Rand ever tell Egwene he was going to face the DO without a plan?

 

Never. I agree. He just told her he was going to break the seals, if I remember right. Not when, how, why, etc.

[Thrasymachus]

I don't understand why Perrin still seems to be trying to hide his Wolfbrotherliness from Rand. Why not just say "smell," instead of "...seem?" I mean, he's already outed himself to his entire army, from Two Rivers folks to Whitecloaks, so why not just get it out in the open with Rand?

[Barid Bel Medar]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

 

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

 

When did Rand ever tell Egwene he was going to face the DO without a plan?

 

He didn't, he led her to believe he would.

 

He says he would go to SHayol Ghul in a months time, and slips in that he hasn't yet come up with a plan.

 

Considering what he knows about how Egwene thinks about him a lot, he knows she would assume the worst. (if only to prepare for the worst case scenario as Amyrlin)

 

He doesn't think he would break the seals tomorrow in his dream. He thinks that he will submit his "terms". (Implying the seals were not the intention of his meeting)

 

Then as an addition to the thought, he thinks that he will break the seals, no matter what arguments came up. Not that he was going to break them the very same day.

[thisguy]

I don't understand why Perrin still seems to be trying to hide his Wolfbrotherliness from Rand. Why not just say "smell," instead of "...seem?" I mean, he's already outed himself to his entire army, from Two Rivers folks to Whitecloaks, so why not just get it out in the open with Rand?

That's a good question. Especially, when your childhood friend just explained to you that he's insane.

 

I mentioned this recently on the boards - this is one of my gripes throughout the entire series - the good guys almost never share information with the other good guys.

I cleansed saidar - nope

killed a forsaken - sometimes nope

can cure taint induced madness - nope

 

etc - nope

[Amandera]

Whatever Egwene's original intention, whatever Rand's original intention, the Pattern is going to be trying to guide them towards common ground. Rand may have been intending to immediately break the Seals, Egwene may have intended that no Seal breaking should ever occur. If neither if those is what the Pattern needs, neither is likely to happen, and they'll find the middle ground that they're already leaning towards.

I don't know about this. I think preserving unity is entirely up to the people. Look at LTT's arrogance and despair, and Latra Posae Decume's dogged insistence in a stupid plan in the Age of Legends. They split the Light's forces right in the middle. It's possible to happen again, even though I don't think it will this time.

 

That's actually one of the best arguments for how the Pattern subtly pushes people to where they need to go.

 

LPD opposed LTT's plan, and her opposition meant that only one side of the One Power was tainted. Her alternative strategy meant that in the next age the tools to fix the Taint were on hand. The way in which the Taint drove Rand insane might have been a benefit to the Light overall, as Rand himself thinks. The Pattern is basically outplaying the Dark One every step of the way, playing a long game.

 

Egwene's position will be what it needs to be. Rand's will be what it needs to be. The Pattern will make sure that that's the case.

Hmm, makes sense.

 

On the other hand, there were two plans and two sides. LPD's faction believe LTT's plan is reckless, LTT's believe LPD's plan is implausible. LTT lets his plan go for a time when he is rejected but LPD never abandons hers even when the access keys fall into Sammael's possession and all the attempts to recapture them fail. They are on the brink of annihilation, Bore is getting bigger. The Light can't continue the war for a long time, and they can't win it by continuing fighting the same way. Someone needs to take initiative. LTT does and while his plan goes horribly wrong in a way no one expected it gives them the chance to fight another day. With all these facts, they still don't consider they must get together, reforge their unity, and formulate a third plan. Why if the Pattern should be driving them toward unity?

 

Fate plays a huge part in the universe, but there is still room for free will I think. In that war, humanity failed and the result was the taint.

 

Then 3000 years pass, and all this time Pattern sets the pieces for a second chance for humanity. Rand is given his mantle and burden at a really young age, so he doesn't succumb entirely to the taint which is why the books take place in only 2 years. Taint gives Rand access to LTT so he can learn from his mistakes and learn the Power and leadership in a really short time.

 

So, I think Pattern doesn't take sides. DO presses for destruction while creation, for better or worse, tries to fight back. Pattern gives the people tools they need to achieve balance but leaves it up to them to fight back.

[MasterAblar]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

 

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

 

When did Rand ever tell Egwene he was going to face the DO without a plan?

 

Never. I agree. He just told her he was going to break the seals, if I remember right. Not when, how, why, etc.

 

Exactly, he told her that he believed saidin and saidar needed to be used, but that he didn't have all the answers yet. Then a couple paragraphs down he tells her he will go to Shayol Ghul in one month. It's a pretty big leap from "doesn't have all the answers yet" to "he means to break the seals without a plan", considering Rand is giving himself a month time. Not to mention Egwene later shows complete confidence in his ability to seal the DO later on in the book.

[fionwe1987]

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

But he did. When Egwene said, "We must talk about this. Plan", he said. "That's why I came to you. To let you plan." That's a straight out admission that he doesn't have a plan.

I don't understand why Perrin still seems to be trying to hide his Wolfbrotherliness from Rand. Why not just say "smell," instead of "...seem?" I mean, he's already outed himself to his entire army, from Two Rivers folks to Whitecloaks, so why not just get it out in the open with Rand?

Exactly. He also keeps his access to Tel'aran'rhiod a secret. At this point, I'm not sure Rand even knows the extent of Egwene's talents there, let alone what Perrin can use it too. Which is absurd in the extreme.

[thisguy]

This chapter actually made me more excited for the release of the book! Can't wait.

[fionwe1987]

Then as an addition to the thought, he thinks that he will break the seals, no matter what arguments came up. Not that he was going to break them the very same day.

However, the day before Merrilor, he tells the Borderland rulers that he plans to go to Shayol Ghul in two days (?) to break the Seals.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think this chapter may have given us the answer. There is that prophecy of the land being one with the Dragon and this chapter he felt that earthquake like a muscle spasm. Apparently that prophecy is to be taken literally since I think Rand is feeling the effect the DO has on the world on his own body. Rand felt the Last Battle coming and he may actually know or a atleast a very good guess at how long he and the world can survive the Last Battle even if the Dark One doesn't break free from his prison.

Yes, but the world will be able to survive a lot less if the Seals are removed. That's Egwene point. Do it if you have to, but right before you seal him back. Why give the world more scars than necessary?

 

Actually, Egwene's way the world will be getting more scars. Each day Rand delays the Last Battle will continue to break the world. Rand's way is basically all or nothing. If he breaks the seals immediately he'll either succeed and the damage will be minimized or he'll fail and the DO breaks free. What Egwene doesn't like are the odds. She wants the odds of Rand's failure to be as close to zero as possible. A very understandable desire of that there is no doubt.

 

I think that could actually be a really cool idea. Rand mirroring the wounds the world is taking, I mean. The wound in his side is the equivalent of the wound Shayol Ghul is on the world. And as the earth gets ravaged Rand gets more and and more injuries. Somewhere in Shinar the earth breaks open and Rand gets a cut on his face, Tar Valon sinks and he gets a wound on his chest etc. It would be a fitting price to pay for the incredible power he's wielding right now.

I don't think we'll see physical wounds. But I do think he'll feel pain, and be scarred mentally each time something like this happens.

 

There are all those prophecies about his blood washing away the sins of man and his blood on shayol ghul etc so I think actual physical wounds would be fitting. And physical wounds are just more vivid to the imagination than emotional scars. Rand dying the death of a thousand cuts is a far stronger image than Min or Aviendha telling us how much pain he is in and which as usual he'll refuse to show.

 

I don't think Egwene can go up against the ta'veren influence.

She has done so twice. In LoC, she embraced saidar and avoided his influence. In ToM, she alone could speak to him while the entire Hall was silenced by his ta'veren influence. And Tuon has also resisted him, when he was actively trying to use it to force her to bend. It seems clear that strong personalities can resist the influence of ta'veren.

 

Only once. In TOM Egwene did exactly what Rand wanted. She was allowed to speak because the Pattern wanted for her to speak. And as for Tuon I think she was only able to resist him because Rand was almost at his darkest there and the ta'veren effect actually worked against him because of that.

 

Judging from what Rand said to Perrin he's willing to compromise to some degree, meaning he's willing to extend the deadline to create unity, but that's all. The question is how long he'll be willing to extend it and since the seals are in his hand and not Egwene's once that deadline is up and there is still no better way found. He'll go do the dangerous thing he alluded to in this chapter and Egwene will have to get out of the way or run over.

He'll take her advice and wait, I think.

 

And the world will pay the price for each day.

 

It would make for an epic scene. Rand covered in wounds that can't be healed as the Last Battle ravages the world having delayed for days because he promised those days to Egwene while Egwene, Min and everybody else is frantically looking for an alternative and if Rand dies the world gets destroyed though I guess the DO still wouldn't be free.

Dunno if that makes sense. If the DO can simply kill him by chipping away at the world, then this battle was lost long ago.

 

Only after VOG has Rand truly become one with the land. So what happened before wouldn't count. And besides according to RJ there are degrees of victory. If the DO destroys the world he may still be unable to break free from his prison, so naturally he won't want that. The DO needs to face the Dragon and overcome him to break free, but the weaker the Dragon the better for him. This also fits with Rand's imagery of running extra laps before facing the DO he told Nynaeve. The more energy he expends before he confronts the DO the harder the battle will be.

[MasterAblar]

For what reason would he go to Shayol Ghul if not to confront and seal the Dark One? Rand certainly never told her he would go without a plan. And Egwene has never once believed that he would. The simplest explanation is that she does not realize that he intends to seal the Dark One immediately.

I don't know for what reason. He thinks in the ToM epilogue that he was going to break the Seals tomorrow no matter what. Now, in Chapter 1, he still doesn't have a plan. So you're obviously wrong when you say he'll only go to SG when he has a plan. His thoughts reveal something very much to the contrary.

 

I'm speaking from Egwene's PoV. Yes, we know that he doesn't have a full plan. Egwene on the other hand does not. Rand never told her that he was going to go to Shayol Ghul without a plan, and there's no reason for her to assume that he would.

 

Nar, her assumptions were correct. Rand told her he didn't have a plan.

 

She thought exactly what he wanted her to, and rightly so. He wanted her to think he was crazy and soften her up afterwards so she would not be too pissed at him when they met.

 

It is extremely obvious that the whole thing was a ploy and he never had any intention of randomly breaking the seals without a plan. Making everyone think that he would, however, is a great way to get Egwene to gather everyone for him to unify everyone.

 

When did Rand ever tell Egwene he was going to face the DO without a plan?

 

He didn't, he led her to believe he would.

 

He says he would go to SHayol Ghul in a months time, and slips in that he hasn't yet come up with a plan.

 

Considering what he knows about how Egwene thinks about him a lot, he knows she would assume the worst. (if only to prepare for the worst case scenario as Amyrlin)

 

He doesn't think he would break the seals tomorrow in his dream. He thinks that he will submit his "terms". (Implying the seals were not the intention of his meeting)

 

Then as an addition to the thought, he thinks that he will break the seals, no matter what arguments came up. Not that he was going to break them the very same day.

 

That doesn't fit with what Egwene tells Elayne and Nyneave. She tells them that surely Rand can seal the DO without breaking the seals. Now the part about him not needing to break the seals magically disappeared between the two books, but why believe that she thinks he means to precede without a plan, rather than believe that she thinks he means to break the seals and not confront the DO immediately? One of those two got retconed but why believe the first rather than the second, considering the second would require Egwene make a leap from "not having all the answers yet" to "facing the DO without a plan?