[Full Prologue Spoiler] The Punishment of Cyndane

[MarkDiLillo]

The more I think about it, the more the entire dream sequence doesnt even make sense to begin with. Since when was Rand some kind of Dreamer that can sit in his own dreams fully consciously aware and just "hang out" there? Since when can any Dreamer do that? He wasn't in TAR, he wasn't in a dreamshard that he created, he wasn't in the mysterious limbo, he was just hanging out in his head at night. So I guess this is another Brandonism and trying to apply logic to figuring it out won't work. Brandonisms like this are what really irritate me because it destroys the entire WoT created universe. We can't even sit back and make logical guesses about the scene because he may well just be breaking all the rules for the convenience of his plot. So frustrating.

[MasterAblar]

The more I think about it, the more the entire dream sequence doesnt even make sense to begin with. Since when was Rand some kind of Dreamer that can sit in his own dreams fully consciously aware and just "hang out" there? Since when can any Dreamer do that? He wasn't in TAR, he wasn't in a dreamshard that he created, he wasn't in the mysterious limbo, he was just hanging out in his head at night. So I guess this is another Brandonism and trying to apply logic to figuring it out won't work.

 

Since he merged with LTT presumably. I'm pretty sure Brandon said that while not everyone can be taught to be a dreamer without a terangreal, there's a range between someone like Balthamel (who didn't have much talent) and someone like Egwene. So it's like Healing. Some are very talented, some have barely any talent at all.

[MarkDiLillo]

The more I think about it, the more the entire dream sequence doesnt even make sense to begin with. Since when was Rand some kind of Dreamer that can sit in his own dreams fully consciously aware and just "hang out" there? Since when can any Dreamer do that? He wasn't in TAR, he wasn't in a dreamshard that he created, he wasn't in the mysterious limbo, he was just hanging out in his head at night. So I guess this is another Brandonism and trying to apply logic to figuring it out won't work.

 

Since he merged with LTT presumably. I'm pretty sure Brandon said that while not everyone can be taught to be a dreamer without a terangreal, there's a range between someone like Balthamel (who didn't have much talent) and someone like Egwene. So it's like Healing. Some are very talented, some have barely any talent at all.

 

It's entirely possible, but we have no evidence to back that up. The main point I was trying to make though was that when have we ever seen Egwene or any other Dreamer just hangout in their own dreams with nothing happening? Just relaxing in their own created world inside their head pondering the universe? We've never seen anything liek that before and if you look back at Egwene's PoVs we have evidence suggesting that it may not even be possible. We are left to just assume LTT was a dreamwalker and is doing something that we've never seen done before. But in reality, Brandon just wanted to write a cool dream sequence that left a Mierin cliffhanger and this is the result.

 

The only options related to dreaming seem to be:

 

1) Goto the weird dream area where you can spy on others dreams, etc.

2) Goto TAR.

3) Dream normally, but half sleep so you can remember and record your dreams as they occur.

4) Sleep and dream normally.

 

When has "just hangout in your head at night" been an option?

[MasterAblar]

The more I think about it, the more the entire dream sequence doesnt even make sense to begin with. Since when was Rand some kind of Dreamer that can sit in his own dreams fully consciously aware and just "hang out" there? Since when can any Dreamer do that? He wasn't in TAR, he wasn't in a dreamshard that he created, he wasn't in the mysterious limbo, he was just hanging out in his head at night. So I guess this is another Brandonism and trying to apply logic to figuring it out won't work.

 

Since he merged with LTT presumably. I'm pretty sure Brandon said that while not everyone can be taught to be a dreamer without a terangreal, there's a range between someone like Balthamel (who didn't have much talent) and someone like Egwene. So it's like Healing. Some are very talented, some have barely any talent at all.

 

It's entirely possible, but we have no evidence to back that up. The main point I was trying to make though was that when have we ever seen Egwene or any other Dreamer just hangout in their own dreams with nothing happening? Just relaxing in their own created world inside their head pondering the universe? We've never seen anything liek that before and if you look back at Egwene's PoVs we have evidence suggesting that it may not even be possible. We are left to just assume LTT was a dreamwalker and is doing something that we've never seen done before. But in reality, Brandon just wanted to write a cool dream sequence that left a Mierin cliffhanger and this is the result.

 

The only options related to dreaming seem to be:

 

1) Goto the weird dream area where you can spy on others dreams, etc.

2) Goto TAR.

3) Dream normally, but half sleep so you can remember and record your dreams as they occur.

4) Sleep and dream normally.

 

When has "just hangout in your head at night" been an option?

 

Apparently something they knew could be done in the AoL. It's hardly the first thing, and it's not a giant leap either. Maybe it's Sanderson's creation and maybe it's not. Depends on what the notes said. Either way I'm not fussed about it. It fits with Rand's mind being at peace.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Note that Lanfear was the Daughter of the NIght. Her skill in TAR and all things TAR is extraordinary.

 

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

 

Moridin has shown similar faculty in TAR as Ishmael (remember what he did with the boys in EotW, and Rand until he was killed).

 

Add the link between the two, and the not so subtle foreshadowing where Rand actually appears in Moridin's dream, it is hardly a surprise.

 

Wherever Rand was at the time the ability from Lanfear and Ishamael isn't unexpected or without reason.

[MarkDiLillo]

Apparently something they knew could be done in the AoL. It's hardly the first thing, and it's not a giant leap either. Maybe it's Sanderson's creation and maybe it's not. Depends on what the notes said. Either way I'm not fussed about it. It fits with Rand's mind being at peace.

 

I agree, it does fit and didnt leap out as anything that was a Brandonism. However, upon closer examination, it seems to not make any sense. Either way, I'm still of the opinion that it was an accidental merge between Rand and Moridin and the Cyndane thing was legitimate even if it doesn't indicate that she wants to help Rand in any way.

[MarkDiLillo]

Note that Lanfear was the Daughter of the NIght. Her skill in TAR and all things TAR is extraordinary.

 

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

 

Moridin has shown similar faculty in TAR as Ishmael (remember what he did with the boys in EotW, and Rand until he was killed).

 

Add the link between the two, and the not so subtle foreshadowing where Rand actually appears in Moridin's dream, it is hardly a surprise.

 

Wherever Rand was at the time the ability from Lanfear and Ishamael isn't unexpected or without reason.

 

Good point - I forgot about the part where she invaded his dreams in the past.

[MasterAblar]

Apparently something they knew could be done in the AoL. It's hardly the first thing, and it's not a giant leap either. Maybe it's Sanderson's creation and maybe it's not. Depends on what the notes said. Either way I'm not fussed about it. It fits with Rand's mind being at peace.

 

I agree, it does fit and didnt leap out as anything that was a Brandonism. However, upon closer examination, it seems to not make any sense. Either way, I'm still of the opinion that it was an accidental merge between Rand and Moridin and the Cyndane thing was legitimate even if it doesn't indicate that she wants to help Rand in any way.

 

I think it was a merge too, though I'm not sure it was accidental. I think it's a trap, I'm just not sure if it's Moridin's with Cyndane being seriously tortured (which fits with Moridin refering to her as "the one most punished") and her plea is genuine, or if it's Cyndane's trap. She certainly wants him dead as we saw in the Slayer PoV in the prologue.

[MarkDiLillo]

It's a pretty crappy trap IMO if thats what it is. Like I said, may as well post Sammael or Demandred out on a stick and hope Rand goes to rescue them. Oh - and also put them in different bodies so he has no idea what they look like and just hope that he can recognize their soul through their eyes.

[yoniy0]

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

I think you're mistaken. She's threatened to break into his dreams, but haven't done so. She wasn't in his dreams after Asmodean taught him to Ward them. Nor has Moridin, until what happened in TGS (and that wasn't Moridin's doing; Rand invaded his dreams, if you will).

[MarkDiLillo]

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

I think you're mistaken. She's threatened to break into his dreams, but haven't done so. She wasn't in his dreams after Asmodean taught him to Ward them. Nor has Moridin, until what happened in TGS (and that wasn't Moridin's doing; Rand invaded his dreams, if you will).

 

I think he was simply pointing out that Lanfear appeared in Rands dreams at some point and did seem to have control over what was going on rather than being sucked into the dream and being powerless.

[makaveli422]

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

I think you're mistaken. She's threatened to break into his dreams, but haven't done so. She wasn't in his dreams after Asmodean taught him to Ward them. Nor has Moridin, until what happened in TGS (and that wasn't Moridin's doing; Rand invaded his dreams, if you will).

 

I think he was simply pointing out that Lanfear appeared in Rands dreams at some point and did seem to have control over what was going on rather than being sucked into the dream and being powerless.

 

The Aiel dreamwalkers have stated that it is possible to enter someone's dreams and still be in control of your self. But if you lose focus for even one second then you become just another part of their dream with no control. This happened to Egwene when she was learning and looked into Rhuarc's dream. Lanfear did invade Rand's dreams but it was before he learned how to ward them.

[Sharaman]

The more I think about it, the more the entire dream sequence doesnt even make sense to begin with. Since when was Rand some kind of Dreamer that can sit in his own dreams fully consciously aware and just "hang out" there? Since when can any Dreamer do that? He wasn't in TAR, he wasn't in a dreamshard that he created, he wasn't in the mysterious limbo, he was just hanging out in his head at night. So I guess this is another Brandonism and trying to apply logic to figuring it out won't work.

 

Since he merged with LTT presumably. I'm pretty sure Brandon said that while not everyone can be taught to be a dreamer without a terangreal, there's a range between someone like Balthamel (who didn't have much talent) and someone like Egwene. So it's like Healing. Some are very talented, some have barely any talent at all.

 

Mesaana's PoVs also indicate that dream ter'angreal were used as AoL teaching aids. Implies (or actually says) that any channeler can be taught to enter TAR without ter'angreal/ In the flesh and therefore to control their dreams to some degree of facility.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Brandon is the one who dismissed that and warned us against taking the TOM epilogue at face value. As others below seem to realize, you really have to stretch what Brandon said to maintain the idea that she has changed her mind. You can do that if you like; it makes little difference to me. But I think Brandon has settled this one.

 

The actual quote seems a lot less dispositive than you made out. For one, Brandon seems to be specifically talking about A Memory of Light, not any of the previous books, when referring to the trustworthiness once should place in Lanfear's POV and in scenes involving her when she is not the POV. Beyond that, it seems curious to hide (or refuse to confirm) the identity of the person Slayer meets with, if it just turns out to be Lanfear in the end.

[yoniy0]

I actually understand what he said as "when you think you got what she's after down, think again." I expect there will be a few surprises there, and Lightsiders might not be the only ones surprised.

 

Still, RJ did settle the question of her loving Rand long ago. Whatever she does, it won't be out of altruistic tendencies.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya, I never imagined she would actually want to do something for Rand's own good purely for the sake of being nice to him. I always thought it would be something along the lines of "well the shadow sucks and if these guys will accept me and need my knowledge of the bore maybe ill give the light another shot."

[Terez]

Brandon is the one who dismissed that and warned us against taking the TOM epilogue at face value. As others below seem to realize, you really have to stretch what Brandon said to maintain the idea that she has changed her mind. You can do that if you like; it makes little difference to me. But I think Brandon has settled this one.

 

The actual quote seems a lot less dispositive than you made out.

 

Yes, I already pointed that out myself. I did, after all, transcribe it.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Yes, I already pointed that out myself. I did, after all, transcribe it.

 

Fair enough. I actually think things will turn out as you suggest (despite my strong preference for another outcome) but what Brandon said doesn't seem like a very good confirmation nor does it settle the issue one way or another.

[Dollhouse]

2. Brandon says her POVs are reliable on how she thinks. That means she truly does want Rand dead, and we can't trust what we saw in the TOM epilogue. (Which many of us already assumed.)

It's shows us HOW she thinks but not always what she thinks. I.E it shows us that she is very overconfident and that she acts out on her emotions almost immediately. The POV that showed her wanting Rand dead was a while ago and if she was tortured... well, she would probably blame Rand but that doesn't mean that she could EASILY change her mind if she somehow got it into her head that he loved her. That is what her POV's show... that she's a bit insane with obsession/love.

 

3. RAFO on whether she was the one talking to Isam. But the main objection to it being her was this idea that she really wanted to make peace with Rand, which is clearly not true.

Sorry but no, we haven't (as far as we have been able to confirm) seen any POV's of her lately so she could have changed her mind. Also, one desire does not need to eliminate the other. For instance she could perfectly well both want to kill Rand/Lews AND make peace with him. We could even have a scenario where she helps Lews win the final battle and then kill him afterwards.

 

We know she always loved the association with LTT and that path to power that brought more than the man himself. RJ himself discounted her doing good for Rands sake long ago. It has always been about the power.

RJ had a tendency to lead readers astray by omitting somethings while hinting at other stuff. For instance RJ said (if I remember correctly) that Mierin loved the power that was associated with Lews Therin. He never said that she DIDN'T love the man himself. Why did't RJ say it outright that she didn't love Lews if this was the case? Why mention that she loved the power? He could simply have said: She didn't love Lews, she only loved his power. What I'm getting at here is that if you want to quote RJ, then you need to quote things that can't be interpritted so many many different ways.

 

Furthermore there is no evidence whatsoever that they could ever expect Rand to want to help her. He has never shown any indication that he would do anything but let her die.

But is that really true? I mean we know Rand/Lews has told Lanfear that he thinks she doesn't love him (doesn't make it true just because he says so) but he never said he had stopped loving her. The closest thing we get is him saying he could never love a woman that gave herself to the shadow, which seems pretty silly seeing as how love isn't really something that you 'decide'. Rather if he actually did love her, her working for the shadow would have been hurting him greatly, enough for him to try and force himself not to love her.

 

That being said, the dreamsequence where he sees Cyndane we see his thoughts and it is mentioned that her eyes are haunting him. I.E that whole sequence seem to confirm that he does love her still but that he has always tried to stop himself from doing so. Kind of he knows that she is "evil" so he shouldn't have feelings for her but he still does. That scene was hardly the first scene about his feelings concerning Mierin either. at least two times (as far as I can recall) when he was shown thinking about her, RJ had Rand thinking of her somewhat "fondly".

 

I'm not saying that it is a trap, but Elorian being the master philosopher he is probably realized long ago that Lews never had stopped loving Mierin.

 

Chances are Cyndane woke up and assumed that Rand was an invention of Moridin during his torture because it would have literally been impossible for Rand to appear in that dream unless she was intimiately aware of Rand and Moridins link.

Dreamwalkers DRAW dreams towards them if the feelings between them are strong enough. This was shown with Egwene and it seems that as a Dreamwalker you can't do anything about it no matter how good you are at tel'aranriod. So it actually might be as you just said... the whole thing might have been something that happened without Cyndane realizing it was real... I mean if it was a trap why appear in her new body and not disguise herself as Lanfear?

 

Note that Lanfear was the Daughter of the NIght. Her skill in TAR and all things TAR is extraordinary.

 

In fact, Lanfear has "invaded" Rand's dream and retained full control of herself in FoH.

Full control? I doubt this is what actually happened. Either she snatched him into Tel'aranriod or what happened in the dream was something she was prepared for. For instance She knew Rand wanted her and she wanted Rand... there was NEVER any need to control things... all she had to do was sex him up and enjoy it. Rand certainly wouldn't have balked.

 

Then Asmodean appeared. Perhaps a dream has less power of people if there are more than one dreamwalker in it? Still, I'd say the appearance of Asmodean suggests that Lanfear snatched him in to Tel'aranriod.

 

RJ did settle the question of her loving Rand long ago. Whatever she does, it won't be out of altruistic tendencies.

Sorry but no, RJ didn't settle anything about her loving Lews. As for altruistic? What does altruism have to do with being in love? Love at its core is a VERY selfish feeling. Altruism is the love for your fellow man and is NOT being in love.

[Suttree]

We know she always loved the association with LTT and that path to power that brought more than the man himself. RJ himself discounted her doing good for Rands sake long ago. It has always been about the power.

RJ had a tendency to lead readers astray by omitting somethings while hinting at other stuff. For instance RJ said (if I remember correctly) that Mierin loved the power that was associated with Lews Therin. He never said that she DIDN'T love the man himself. Why did't RJ say it outright that she didn't love Lews if this was the case? Why mention that she loved the power? He could simply have said: She didn't love Lews, she only loved his power. What I'm getting at here is that if you want to quote RJ, then you need to quote things that can't be interpritted so many many different ways.

 

What was said was that LTT left her because "she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself".

 

Further this myth that RJ frequently gave AS answers is hugely overstated. In fact that rarely happened, he usually answered straight out or gave a RAFO. In the case of Lanfear it was very straight forward:

 

RJ

And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love—not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted—wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

[Neophyte]

Love at its core is a VERY selfish feeling.

 

I disagree with the statement in the strongest possible terms, though it is a commonly held opinion. It is a matter of definitions, of course - some of the things that many people call being "in love" are in fact quite selfish (which is why, in my opinion, so many relationships are damaged and damaging). But for a long time now my functional definition of love has been "caring more about someone else's benefit/happiness than my own." The degrees can vary, but the essence doesn't - the essence of being "in love" is the same as the essence of "love your fellow men."

 

For other those emotions often conflated with "love," I choose words like desire, attraction, infatuation, etc.

 

Using that as a standard, what Mierin Eronaile felt for Lews Therin Telamon does not appear to ever have been love.

[thisguy]

Love at its core is a VERY selfish feeling.

 

I disagree with the statement in the strongest possible terms, though it is a commonly held opinion. It is a matter of definitions, of course - some of the things that many people call being "in love" are in fact quite selfish (which is why, in my opinion, so many relationships are damaged and damaging). But for a long time now my functional definition of love has been "caring more about someone else's benefit/happiness than my own." The degrees can vary, but the essence doesn't - the essence of being "in love" is the same as the essence of "love your fellow men."

 

For other those emotions often conflated with "love," I choose words like desire, attraction, infatuation, etc.

 

Using that as a standard, what Mierin Eronaile felt for Lews Therin Telamon does not appear to ever have been love.

The ancient Greeks had many words for love, I think the problem is that we use on word for a very shaded emotion.

 

Anyway, I think you're both right.

 

I think Lanfear's real punishment was to come back as a punk rock chick. Not her style. ;)

[Sharaman]

BTW what did Lanfear ask the foxes for?

That might have some bearing on her punishment.

[MarkDiLillo]

BTW what did Lanfear ask the foxes for?

That might have some bearing on her punishment.

 

It is very possible that the answer to this question is going to be as important as the answer to Moiraine's demands.

[dwn]

BTW what did Lanfear ask the foxes for?

That might have some bearing on her punishment.

 

This question has two facets: what did she ask for, and in what sort of twisted way did the *Finn respond to it?

 

Once upon a time I postulated that Lanfear asked something along the lines of, "I want Lews Therin to love me," and that the *Finn responded by giving her a good long look at herself--sort of like a moral detox program, if you will. It's the sort of hair-brained question I could see Lanfear asking. For their part, the *Finn certainly can do wiggy mind stuff--as they did with Mat--and we've seen several ter'angreal that work along similar lines. Now, it wouldn't necessarily change her (at least not quickly), but it could be a first small step along a redemption path. it would also be a deep, if accidental, betrayal of the Shadow and a very good reason for her present chastisement.

 

On a meta-story level, though, I'm not sure there's really enough time for any redemption arc to play out well.

 

-- dwn