CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[MasterAblar]

In regards to Tarna and others at the BT. I have assumed for a while that females who have undergone the 13 x13 conversion would be turned by 13 males and 13 fades. I do not remember reading this anywhere so I perhaps this is wrong. Can anyone clarify?

 

If a circle is necessary you'd need at least 7 women (1 more than there are men), seeing as men cannot link on their own.

[XoMeltdownoX]

In regards to Tarna and others at the BT. I have assumed for a while that females who have undergone the 13 x13 conversion would be turned by 13 males and 13 fades. I do not remember reading this anywhere so I perhaps this is wrong. Can anyone clarify?

 

If a circle is necessary you'd need at least 7 women (1 more than there are men), seeing as men cannot link on their own.

I missed that.

Is it a circle for sure? I assume you are correct. I guess I was thinking about how the opposite sex should be used. Then again a circle of women channeling through 13 fades (which are male) gives the gender balance.

[MasterAblar]

In regards to Tarna and others at the BT. I have assumed for a while that females who have undergone the 13 x13 conversion would be turned by 13 males and 13 fades. I do not remember reading this anywhere so I perhaps this is wrong. Can anyone clarify?

 

If a circle is necessary you'd need at least 7 women (1 more than there are men), seeing as men cannot link on their own.

I missed that.

Is it a circle for sure? I assume you are correct.

 

I'm not sure, but considering that there was carriage going by with 13 black sisters in it in the prologue (from what I understand as I don't have actually have it), I would image that a circle is necessary. I could be wrong though.

[Neophyte]

This is what we know of the procedure, per Sheriam who informed us (by telling Egwene) of this method to start with. Sheriam's credibility credentials re: Shadowy processes have since been confirmed.

 

In TDR ch 22

 

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things.” Egwene shuddered. “Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know - Light send it has not been done! - since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow.”

 

“Thirteen,” Egwene said in a tiny voice. “The same number who left the Tower. Liandrin,

and twelve more.”

 

Sheriam’s face hardened. “That is nothing for you to dwell on. You will forget it.”

 

So, we don't know (at least, I haven't seen it confirmed) that a circle is necessary or not. It seems likely, though. Whether the circle has to be mixed or not is also unknown, though Egwene's comment and Sheriam's reaction seem to imply that 13 female channelers would do just fine.

 

(Note: remember that the term "Dreadlords" can apply to female channelers as well as males. Technically, you could probably call members of the Black Ajah "Dreadlords." I guess "Dreadladies" just didn't sound quite right.)

[MarkDiLillo]

I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

I doubt it would be easy to hid the presence of 13 Myrddraal from non-turned channelers, even somewhere as large as the BT grounds. Moving them to a remote location (town) makes some sense if they're trying to keep it on the sly.

 

Two quick comments about that:

 

1) You're right - if BS remembered that channelers can actually feel the presence and taint of shadowspawn. It would be near impossible to hide this unless Taim used some type of shielding that we arent aware of.

 

2) On the other hand, Fades can basically teleport around the world it seems like with their shadow porting abilities so it may not be a big issue to get 13 of them to the black tower.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: Don't worrry, irrelevant

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

I doubt it would be easy to hid the presence of 13 Myrddraal from non-turned channelers, even somewhere as large as the BT grounds. Moving them to a remote location (town) makes some sense if they're trying to keep it on the sly.

 

Two quick comments about that:

 

1) You're right - if BS remembered that channelers can actually feel the presence and taint of shadowspawn. It would be near impossible to hide this unless Taim used some type of shielding that we arent aware of.

 

2) On the other hand, Fades can basically teleport around the world it seems like with their shadow porting abilities so it may not be a big issue to get 13 of them to the black tower.

 

A third point would be that most Asha'man are ignorant of anything not related to battle. Add the point and who among them would question a weird feeling and think it had to be Shadowspawn.

[David Selig]

Could anyone explain why Egeanin decided to go all the way to Caemlyn if she wanted to meet Elayne? She was right in Caemlyn after all, and Mat was just about to have an audience with Elayne when she left. The whole thing seems contrived.

 

I liked the prologue overall, though the presence of only 4 Kin women in Caemlyn really stretches plausibility. And why didn't the one Kinwoman who survived simply open a small gateway and scream through it for help or throw a letter through, anything to draw the attention of those at Merrilor?

 

Taimandred is officially dead and buried now based on the books only. About time. ;)

[Neophyte]

Could anyone explain why Egeanin decided to go all the way to Caemlyn if she wanted to meet Elayne? She was right in Caemlyn after all, and Mat was just about to have an audience with Elayne when she left. The whole thing seems contrived.

 

I liked the prologue overall, though the presence of only 4 Kin women in Caemlyn really stretches plausibility. And why didn't the one Kinwoman who survived didn't open a gateway and scream through it for help or throw a letter through, anything to draw the attention of those at Merrilor?

 

Taimandred is officially dead and buried now based on the books only. About time. ;)

 

It does seem contrived, although she wasn't looking specifically for just Elayne, she was looking for Elayne or Nynaeve, in connection with Aes Sedai stuff - so going to Tar Valon isn't completely unreasonable.

 

Also, you're right - opening a small gateway to pass a message through does seem like the obvious thing to do.

[David Selig]

Rereading this part, It does seem that Egeanin isn't even aware that Elayne is the Queen of Andor, which would be just silly. Domon at least should know very well who Elayne Trakand is and her rank in Andor and besdies both Egeanin should've asked Thom and Mat for more info on Elayne back in Caemlyn since she wanted so much to meet her.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Also, you're right - opening a small gateway to pass a message through does seem like the obvious thing to do.

 

It was explained, she wasn't strong enough to weave gateways. It is true that the stronger the channeller, the larger the gateway, but you must have a certain level of power to open a gateway at all.

 

I don't know, I am of two minds with Elayne's decision. One, she needs every channeller she has, she thinks that they will go to the Last Battle and fight in the borderlands. She certainly never expected an attack on Caemlyn. The Gateway was thought to be secure, if Elayne even recalls it.

 

On the other hand, only having four, who can only make a gateway while linked in ANY situation seems pretty weak. Even without the threat of a massive shadowspawn invasion from inside, all it takes -as we see - is the disabling of the Kin (which is quite easy. Doesn't have to be death, it could be forkroot or kidnapping etc.) and contact is completely cut off.

[TootThatHorn]

So I mentioned in my first post about Moggy seeing a sun for the first time in TAR (ya I know it's a "dreamshard" but it is tied to TAR) in a long time. I'm curious if this actually is Moridin's doing to begin with, I'm sure it is but it would be neat if it was a reflection of say Rand's persona, and no one is mentioning it.

 

Mainly though I'm curious what people think of that having to do with "twice dawns the day" and whatnot. No one has said anything about it and really it seems pretty huge.

[Neophyte]

Also, you're right - opening a small gateway to pass a message through does seem like the obvious thing to do.

 

It was explained, she wasn't strong enough to weave gateways. It is true that the stronger the channeller, the larger the gateway, but you must have a certain level of power to open a gateway at all.

 

I don't know, I am of two minds with Elayne's decision. One, she needs every channeller she has, she thinks that they will go to the Last Battle and fight in the borderlands. She certainly never expected an attack on Caemlyn. The Gateway was thought to be secure, if Elayne even recalls it.

 

On the other hand, only having four, who can only make a gateway while linked in ANY situation seems pretty weak. Even without the threat of a massive shadowspawn invasion from inside, all it takes -as we see - is the disabling of the Kin (which is quite easy. Doesn't have to be death, it could be forkroot or kidnapping etc.) and contact is completely cut off.

 

Opening a gateway the size of a salad plate should not have been beyond the strength of someone who, when linked with three others, can open a man-sized or larger gateway. The "explanation" is pretty weak.

 

And the amount of difference that ten or fifteen Kinswomen could make at Tarmon Gai'don (or the Field of Merrilor for that matter) is far outweighed by the benefit of having a truly secure line home. Elayne knows for a fact that an attack is planned on Caemlyn, because Chesmal told her in ToM chapter 23 when she was impersonating a Forsaken. Also, she didn't bring the dragons to the Field of Merrilor, so she must be planning to at least stop back by Caemlyn at some point, or to not use them in the Last Battle.

 

No, this was a real blunder by Elayne.

[Damer Sedai]

I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

I doubt it would be easy to hid the presence of 13 Myrddraal from non-turned channelers, even somewhere as large as the BT grounds. Moving them to a remote location (town) makes some sense if they're trying to keep it on the sly.

 

Two quick comments about that:

 

1) You're right - if BS remembered that channelers can actually feel the presence and taint of shadowspawn. It would be near impossible to hide this unless Taim used some type of shielding that we arent aware of.

 

 

As early as The Great Hunt, we know that Shadowspawn presence can be warded by a channeler: Moiraine is nearly killed by a Draghkar when visiting Vandene and Adeleas, and she never sensed it until too late (saved by Lan last minute) - the Aes Sedai quickly came to the conclusion that the creature had been warded by Black Ajah.

[David Selig]

Also, you're right - opening a small gateway to pass a message through does seem like the obvious thing to do.

 

It was explained, she wasn't strong enough to weave gateways. It is true that the stronger the channeller, the larger the gateway, but you must have a certain level of power to open a gateway at all.

 

I don't know, I am of two minds with Elayne's decision. One, she needs every channeller she has, she thinks that they will go to the Last Battle and fight in the borderlands. She certainly never expected an attack on Caemlyn. The Gateway was thought to be secure, if Elayne even recalls it.

 

On the other hand, only having four, who can only make a gateway while linked in ANY situation seems pretty weak. Even without the threat of a massive shadowspawn invasion from inside, all it takes -as we see - is the disabling of the Kin (which is quite easy. Doesn't have to be death, it could be forkroot or kidnapping etc.) and contact is completely cut off.

 

Opening a gateway the size of a salad plate should not have been beyond the strength of someone who, when linked with three others, can open a man-sized or larger gateway. The "explanation" is pretty weak.

 

And the amount of difference that ten or fifteen Kinswomen could make at Tarmon Gai'don (or the Field of Merrilor for that matter) is far outweighed by the benefit of having a truly secure line home. Elayne knows for a fact that an attack is planned on Caemlyn, because Chesmal told her in ToM chapter 23 when she was impersonating a Forsaken. Also, she didn't bring the dragons to the Field of Merrilor, so she must be planning to at least stop back by Caemlyn at some point, or to not use them in the Last Battle.

 

No, this was a real blunder by Elayne.

Elayne knew there was an attack planned on Andor, not caemlyn specifically.

 

Still silly and contrived, though, given that there are hundreds of Kinwomen available to Elayne, many of which quite strong.

[Suttree]

Elayne knew there was an attack planned on Andor, not caemlyn specifically.

 

Still silly and contrived, though, given that there are hundreds of Kinwomen available to Elayne, many of which quite strong.

 

Exactly, this can not really be chalked up as a mistake on her part. Hard to think this couldn't have been handled in a more realistic manner.

[MasterAblar]

Also, you're right - opening a small gateway to pass a message through does seem like the obvious thing to do.

 

It was explained, she wasn't strong enough to weave gateways. It is true that the stronger the channeller, the larger the gateway, but you must have a certain level of power to open a gateway at all.

 

I don't know, I am of two minds with Elayne's decision. One, she needs every channeller she has, she thinks that they will go to the Last Battle and fight in the borderlands. She certainly never expected an attack on Caemlyn. The Gateway was thought to be secure, if Elayne even recalls it.

 

On the other hand, only having four, who can only make a gateway while linked in ANY situation seems pretty weak. Even without the threat of a massive shadowspawn invasion from inside, all it takes -as we see - is the disabling of the Kin (which is quite easy. Doesn't have to be death, it could be forkroot or kidnapping etc.) and contact is completely cut off.

 

Opening a gateway the size of a salad plate should not have been beyond the strength of someone who, when linked with three others, can open a man-sized or larger gateway. The "explanation" is pretty weak.

 

And the amount of difference that ten or fifteen Kinswomen could make at Tarmon Gai'don (or the Field of Merrilor for that matter) is far outweighed by the benefit of having a truly secure line home. Elayne knows for a fact that an attack is planned on Caemlyn, because Chesmal told her in ToM chapter 23 when she was impersonating a Forsaken. Also, she didn't bring the dragons to the Field of Merrilor, so she must be planning to at least stop back by Caemlyn at some point, or to not use them in the Last Battle.

 

No, this was a real blunder by Elayne.

Elayne knew there was an attack planned on Andor, not caemlyn specifically.

 

Still silly and contrived, though, given that there are hundreds of Kinwomen available to Elayne, many of which quite strong.

 

Honestly she should be in regular contact with Caemlyn in the first place. Send a messenger every hour or so as a precaution. Especially since she's expecting an attack which might be on Caemlyn.

[mbuehner]

Opening a gateway the size of a salad plate should not have been beyond the strength of someone who, when linked with three others, can open a man-sized or larger gateway. The "explanation" is pretty weak.

 

There is a minimum strength required to open a gateway (recall Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weave). It would seem from all available evidence that if you have that minunum strength to open a gateway, you also have the minumum strength for a person sized gateway. IE- you need a strenght of '5' to open it. You need a strenghth of '5' to make it human sized. Hence if you are only strong enough to open a plate sized gateway you cant open any gateway. Look at it like pulling open a stuck window, you need more strength to get it moving than you do to move it once its unstuck. Once you can get a gateway to form at all, making it size up to a normal gateway size is easy, getting larger gets progressively harder.

And the amount of difference that ten or fifteen Kinswomen could make at Tarmon Gai'don (or the Field of Merrilor for that matter) is far outweighed by the benefit of having a truly secure line home. Elayne knows for a fact that an attack is planned on Caemlyn, because Chesmal told her in ToM chapter 23 when she was impersonating a Forsaken. Also, she didn't bring the dragons to the Field of Merrilor, so she must be planning to at least stop back by Caemlyn at some point, or to not use them in the Last Battle.

 

Amen to that. The entire Field of Merrilor conept is ridiculous. Egwene is going to intimidate Rand by bringing the worlds armies togethers? When they are met or dwarfed by Rand's own forces? Not to mention... what are they going to do attack him? The whole idea is ludicrious and a waste of resources. Or, a plot contrivance anyway. They could have set a table for 20 in the middle of the field and had the same discussion, come the time.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Opening a gateway the size of a salad plate should not have been beyond the strength of someone who, when linked with three others, can open a man-sized or larger gateway. The "explanation" is pretty weak.

 

There is a minimum strength required to open a gateway (recall Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weave). It would seem from all available evidence that if you have that minunum strength to open a gateway, you also have the minumum strength for a person sized gateway. IE- you need a strenght of '5' to open it. You need a strenghth of '5' to make it human sized. Hence if you are only strong enough to open a plate sized gateway you cant open any gateway. Look at it like pulling open a stuck window, you need more strength to get it moving than you do to move it once its unstuck. Once you can get a gateway to form at all, making it size up to a normal gateway size is easy, getting larger gets progressively harder.

And the amount of difference that ten or fifteen Kinswomen could make at Tarmon Gai'don (or the Field of Merrilor for that matter) is far outweighed by the benefit of having a truly secure line home. Elayne knows for a fact that an attack is planned on Caemlyn, because Chesmal told her in ToM chapter 23 when she was impersonating a Forsaken. Also, she didn't bring the dragons to the Field of Merrilor, so she must be planning to at least stop back by Caemlyn at some point, or to not use them in the Last Battle.

 

Amen to that. The entire Field of Merrilor conept is ridiculous. Egwene is going to intimidate Rand by bringing the worlds armies togethers? When they are met or dwarfed by Rand's own forces? Not to mention... what are they going to do attack him? The whole idea is ludicrious and a waste of resources. Or, a plot contrivance anyway. They could have set a table for 20 in the middle of the field and had the same discussion, come the time.

Amen

[Neophyte]

 

There is a minimum strength required to open a gateway (recall Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weave). It would seem from all available evidence that if you have that minunum strength to open a gateway, you also have the minumum strength for a person sized gateway. IE- you need a strenght of '5' to open it. You need a strenghth of '5' to make it human sized. Hence if you are only strong enough to open a plate sized gateway you cant open any gateway. Look at it like pulling open a stuck window, you need more strength to get it moving than you do to move it once its unstuck. Once you can get a gateway to form at all, making it size up to a normal gateway size is easy, getting larger gets progressively harder.

 

 

I understand the concept of a sort of "critical mass" in the strength level, but I didn't know it was set at around the amount of Power needed to open a person-sized gate. Is that ever actually stated in the books or by one of the authors, or is that just a seeming consensus conclusion?

 

If that is the case, then Elayne is even more stupid than I thought. What if one of the ones she left behind just plain got sick, or fell down some stairs? If all four were needed to form any gateway at all, then ... wow ... Elayne and Birgitte both need to be taken behind the shed, figuratively speaking. They just got a whole bunch of their people killed through sheer incompetence.

[TootThatHorn]

There is a minimum strength required to open a gateway (recall Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weave). It would seem from all available evidence that if you have that minunum strength to open a gateway, you also have the minumum strength for a person sized gateway. IE- you need a strenght of '5' to open it. You need a strenghth of '5' to make it human sized. Hence if you are only strong enough to open a plate sized gateway you cant open any gateway. Look at it like pulling open a stuck window, you need more strength to get it moving than you do to move it once its unstuck. Once you can get a gateway to form at all, making it size up to a normal gateway size is easy, getting larger gets progressively harder.

 

 

I understand the concept of a sort of "critical mass" in the strength level, but I didn't know it was set at around the amount of Power needed to open a person-sized gate. Is that ever actually stated in the books or by one of the authors, or is that just a seeming consensus conclusion?

 

If that is the case, then Elayne is even more stupid than I thought. What if one of the ones she left behind just plain got sick, or fell down some stairs? If all four were needed to form any gateway at all, then ... wow ... Elayne and Birgitte both need to be taken behind the shed, figuratively speaking. They just got a whole bunch of their people killed through sheer incompetence.

 

It boggles my mind as well, given that any ruler would kill to have constant communication with their kingdom when they are gone. That is a huge advantage, more so during times of war.

[mbuehner]

Taimandred is officially dead and buried now based on the books only. About time. ;)

 

Well... lol. Ok, here me out- What if, now just WHAT IF, we have some body switching going on. I'm just saying, all the sudden Demandred is acting like Sammael... ok maybe not. Taimandred is dead and his corpse has been cold for years. But at least Taimoridan is dead, Guybondred, is dead, and i have to think Roedrandred is on life support (for all the same reasons it was a bad idea to begin with btw. Its just too petty of a role for our man). We're really running out of armies of suffient size to fit the evidence for Demandred. Its got to be either Shara, a new fleet from Seanchan, or- ah, here's one i havent heard before... Lunal Galgandred. Actually i think the best answer is that he's in charge of the trolloc hordes. Its a big job, paticularly if they are using portal worlds as trolloc breeding grounds.

[mbuehner]

I understand the concept of a sort of "critical mass" in the strength level, but I didn't know it was set at around the amount of Power needed to open a person-sized gate. Is that ever actually stated in the books or by one of the authors, or is that just a seeming consensus conclusion?

 

Well, there is definately a minimum required strength to open a gateway, thats a given. And we have probably many or most channelers below that threshold, and then the ones we know of above that threshold who can ALL open human sized gates and larger. We just have never seen anyone ONLY able to open a small gateway (Sorilia wasnt able to do so to instruct Cadsuane for instance, if the scaling theory were true she could at least open a pinprick or somethine you would think). In this case i think that absense of evidence is a pretty good argument for evidence of absense.

 

If that is the case, then Elayne is even more stupid than I thought. What if one of the ones she left behind just plain got sick, or fell down some stairs? If all four were needed to form any gateway at all, then ... wow ... Elayne and Birgitte both need to be taken behind the shed, figuratively speaking. They just got a whole bunch of their people killed through sheer incompetence.

 

Well... its Elayne. Thats kinda what she does.

[Neophyte]

Elayne knew there was an attack planned on Andor, not caemlyn specifically.

 

Still silly and contrived, though, given that there are hundreds of Kinwomen available to Elayne, many of which quite strong.

 

Come on ... Chesmal is working with a group of Darkfriends in Caemlyn, the seat of Elayne's power, preparing for an invasion of Andor, and Elayne thinks it is coming where, to Four Kings?

 

And she knew it was coming soon, because Chesmal told her that "the deadline nears."

 

There's really just no excuse for Elayne here.

[fionwe1987]

Could anyone explain why Egeanin decided to go all the way to Caemlyn if she wanted to meet Elayne? She was right in Caemlyn after all, and Mat was just about to have an audience with Elayne when she left. The whole thing seems contrived.

 

I liked the prologue overall, though the presence of only 4 Kin women in Caemlyn really stretches plausibility. And why didn't the one Kinwoman who survived simply open a small gateway and scream through it for help or throw a letter through, anything to draw the attention of those at Merrilor?

Two very good points here. And the removal of the entire Kin is baffling to me. In ToM, the Kin agreed to make Caemlyn their home in exchange for Healing and Traveling. If you have four women who need to link to Travel at all meeting all the Gateway needs, how're they supposed to handle Healing?

 

Rereading this part, It does seem that Egeanin isn't even aware that Elayne is the Queen of Andor, which would be just silly. Domon at least should know very well who Elayne Trakand is and her rank in Andor and besdies both Egeanin should've asked Thom and Mat for more info on Elayne back in Caemlyn since she wanted so much to meet her.

 

Egeanin knew Elayne was Daughter Heir of Andor as far back as TSR. Her forgetting this is just one of those continuity snafus we have to expect with RJ not writing the final books, I think.

 

There is a minimum strength required to open a gateway (recall Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weave). It would seem from all available evidence that if you have that minunum strength to open a gateway, you also have the minumum strength for a person sized gateway. IE- you need a strenght of '5' to open it. You need a strenghth of '5' to make it human sized. Hence if you are only strong enough to open a plate sized gateway you cant open any gateway. Look at it like pulling open a stuck window, you need more strength to get it moving than you do to move it once its unstuck. Once you can get a gateway to form at all, making it size up to a normal gateway size is easy, getting larger gets progressively harder.

Not true. We've been told of Aes Sedai who can only make Gateways large enough to put their hand through, but two such can link to make one large enough to for humans to pass through. Cadsuane also says her well has only enough power to make a knee-high Gateway you have to crawl through.

 

Amen to that. The entire Field of Merrilor conept is ridiculous. Egwene is going to intimidate Rand by bringing the worlds armies togethers? When they are met or dwarfed by Rand's own forces? Not to mention... what are they going to do attack him? The whole idea is ludicrious and a waste of resources. Or, a plot contrivance anyway. They could have set a table for 20 in the middle of the field and had the same discussion, come the time.

Its definitely a contrivance. Even though Egwene isn't even contemplating a military use for those armies against Rand, she wants every one of them there? Totally idiotic.

 

If Sanderson had thought about it more, he could have come up with a better explnation. Say, have Egwene contrive it this way so that the various national armies could be fused under a unified command for the LB, and sent packing to the Blight border straight after the meeting; and Merrillor is her staging ground to make this alliance. It would have taken an extra sentence or two to make it this way, so the lack of effort is even more disappointing.