Potential Forsaken Death Scences

[jburkal'hard]

Long time browser of this wonderful forum and first time poster. Anywho, how do you guys and gals think the Forsaken plots will progress and end? Will they all die by the time the Last Battle is at an end or will some survive after?

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

Moridin- Fights Rand at the end of it all. I have no evidence to support it but I think the link between Rand and Moridin will make him succumb to Rand's Light Logic. I think in a last moment epiphany he gives Rand knowledge to help seal the Bore or secret Callandor flaw knowledge.In the blast from the Bore he dies. I think this will happen in the last few chapters of the book.

 

Lanfear/Cyndane- will draw Rand in to TAR and do something to try and capture him. Perrin, and possibly Egwene, will save him and Rand will defeat her. My thoughts are this happens early in the book

 

Demandred - I think a duel between him and Rand has been foreshadowed pretty heavily. As the general for the Shadow though he'll do some damage to the Lights armies before confronting Rand in an abmush. Rand will defeat him while giving Arnold Schwarzenegger level one- liners. I think this will happen in the mid-late portion of the book.

 

Moghedien- This will come down to Nynaeve and her. Sets a trap for Nynaeve, and dies in the fight between the two of them. I also think she might be the most likely to survive the Last Battle. It'll happen during in the middle book.

 

Graendal- She is the hardest for me to figure out because we aren't sure how the Great Lord sees her. I think she'll be in his doghouse and in an effort will try get out she attempt to kill Perrin again. I think she'll succeed in killing Faile or Perrin;perhaps both in some elaborate scheme of hers. I think she'll die in the fighting at Shayol Ghul by one of the Lights channelers, in my opinion its Egwene.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if one of these deaths was "off screen" but I think the Forsaken have played too much of a role in the series for that to happen.

[Luckers]

Long time browser of this wonderful forum and first time poster.

 

Hi! Welcome to the board!

 

Moridin- Fights Rand at the end of it all. I have no evidence to support it but I think the link between Rand and Moridin will make him succumb to Rand's Light Logic. I think in a last moment epiphany he gives Rand knowledge to help seal the Bore or secret Callandor flaw knowledge.In the blast from the Bore he dies. I think this will happen in the last few chapters of the book.

 

I proposed the theory that Moridin and Rand would swap bodies and that Alivia would help Rand-in-Moridin's body kill Moridin-in-Rand's body, allowing Rand to be both dead and alive at the same time as per Nicola's foretelling. Mind you I'm not sure I like this theory myself, but it does fit the prophecies the closest (though as always I do admit that the Nynaeve pulling Rand from the Dream post death does fulfill them all pretty nicely, though only issue being the concurrency of him being both dead and alive, and even that being surmountable).

 

Either way I've always liked the idea of Moridin living post TG for a time, reflecting bitterly on what he has lost before being found out and killed--a way to do Harry Potter's Nineteen years later without it being so cheesy--especially because he was the Shadow's one true believer.

 

I also used to love the idea of Noal/Jain Farstrider killing him, *sigh*

 

Lanfear/Cyndane- will draw Rand in to TAR and do something to try and capture him. Perrin, and possibly Egwene, will save him and Rand will defeat her. My thoughts are this happens early in the book

 

Egwene may be knocked down by Cyndane. I've speculated that the Dark Prophecy actually refers to Cyndane not to Lanfear. Consider--The Daughter of the Night, she walks again (as Cyndane), the ancient war, she yet fights (a warning that her presentation to Rand was false and a trap), who shall serve her, and die, yet serve still (notably, Rand is going to be in a position to do something, die, and then continue to do it. Certainly this never occurred whilst she was Lanfear). (and, here is the point I was making about Egwene) the shinning walls shall kneel (which could either be literal about the assault on Tar Valon, or could be metaphorical about Cyndane humbling Egwene in some way.

 

Otherwise, I want Min to kill her. :D

 

I'll be back in a bit.

 

Edit: Back.

 

Demandred - I think a duel between him and Rand has been foreshadowed pretty heavily. As the general for the Shadow though he'll do some damage to the Lights armies before confronting Rand in an abmush. Rand will defeat him while giving Arnold Schwarzenegger level one- liners. I think this will happen in the mid-late portion of the book.

 

I kinda like the idea of Taim killing him. Has... poetry.

 

Moghedien- This will come down to Nynaeve and her. Sets a trap for Nynaeve, and dies in the fight between the two of them. I also think she might be the most likely to survive the Last Battle. It'll happen during in the middle book.

 

Your probably right, though I do want to see a cour'souvra broken. Perhaps Puppet-Moghedien fights Nynaeve--though the other thing is I do feel that Moiraine deserves another chosen for her belt. Moghedien could fit.

 

Graendal- She is the hardest for me to figure out because we aren't sure how the Great Lord sees her. I think she'll be in his doghouse and in an effort will try get out she attempt to kill Perrin again. I think she'll succeed in killing Faile or Perrin;perhaps both in some elaborate scheme of hers. I think she'll die in the fighting at Shayol Ghul by one of the Lights channelers, in my opinion its Egwene

 

I'm wondering if Graendal may not change sides. It's been mentioned that she would if her interest and self-preservation lay in that direction, and events may well be in a place that they do thanks to Shadar Haren. To be honest, though, I worry about Graendal. She was always the best Forsaken because she, unlike any of the other, never dismissed the dangers of the Third Age. She even manages to survive Rand's blitzkrieg attack... and then launches a plan to attack Perrin that looks like a two year-old drew it up in crayon. A two year-old that wanted Perrin to win. It'd take a lot for her ending to be satisfying after that build up then let down.

 

So yeah, maybe she swaps sides and survives TG. Or switches sides and does some damage for the Light before being killed by the Shadow, or even by one of the Light knowing she's just playing them. I could see Cadsuane doing this--her skill for reading people would likely make her the best opponent for Graendal amongst the Light.

[Maleshub]

Just a wild swing, but here goes ....

 

Demandred is the Shadow's top general; and he will start AMoL in a triumphant position with his armies outmaneuvering Rand. Parallel to Rand's Strike on Shayol Ghul, Mat (Son of Battles) will lead the Seanchan armies and Rand's armies (good Ashaman included) to counter Demandred's gains and free Randland from Shadowspawn. If Logain happens to lead the Ashaman under Mat, he might end up killing Demandred and "stepping over" his body.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nice stuff, nice topic to post off first, welcome!

 

I'll put my own vague theories out there. Mind you, these are the ones that I would like to happen, not necessarily the most likely. Although all of them are possible, they are probably not the most likely.

 

 

Moridin: I would like to think that Moridin survives in some form. Not in his Moridin-body, or alive in the basic sense of the word (living soul in a body), but perhaps the Wise One's mantra about going into TAR in the flesh might play out a bit, I can see Moridin, going in, in the flesh, and end up destroying his body because of whatever "evil" side effects. In any case, I can see everyone thinking Moridin is dead, his body destroyed, but his soul in a wraith form popping up whispering in people's ears from time to time, "I win again, LTT" and the like.

 

Lanfear: I like Luckers' Cyndane/prophecy theory, and I think this incident, the "kneeling" of the White Tower, will spark either a) Rand himself or B) one or a combination of Rand's 3 women to kill her. As it is at the moment, Rand seems unlikely to kill her easily, what with her begging him for help and all. Even if she is genuine about it, I still think she will be forced to fight for the Shadow, there isn't much way around the Mindtrap.

 

Graendal: Hard to say, since we don't know what state she is in right now, she could be mindtrapped, or she could be dead already, for all we know (although I highly doubt it, the DO is more lenient with faliure to preserve the Chosen) I think she will destroy herself in the end. Her endless machinations and indulgence will be the end of her, so she will end up trapped and nowhere to run to.

 

Moggy: I have a feeling she will kill Lan to piss Nynaeve off. You do the math from there.

 

Demandred: I have a semi-serious theory that Demandred will abandon the Shadow, if not exactly turn back to the Light, he will fight the Shadow. Nearly every chapter with Demandred in it, the possibility of betrayal is brought up.

 

In Lord of Chaos prologue, the DO asks him if he would use balefire, which we see reluctance and musing on the weakness of the DO (in regards to information). When we go to Mesaana, she wonders if Demandred would be sworn to the Shadow if LTT were not born. Winter's Heart, Graendal taunts the male Forsaken that if the Taint is cleansed, the DO will mistrust them. (Yes, it is all of them, but from Demandred's point of view). tGS, Graendal muses that Demandred may have been the Dragon (political title, not the Champion of Light) if not for LTT.

 

So anyway, my theory is that Demandred kills Rand, something that has been a major point with Demandred, that's all he wants to do. So, he kills Rand, and finds that it wasn't that great. Doubt he would abandon the Shadow just at that, but I can see 3 options.

1. Moridin is pissed off and tries to punish him, which Demandred won't be keen on, so he goes renegade.

2. He start's losing, via Mat's great ability, and decides there is no point in fighting for the Shadow any longer, and just bails. ( a weak move, but possible, although I hope not)

3. Rand comes back to life as prophesied, and Demandred is all like "oh come on, I am sick of this. I'm out. Or Rand makes him see that his hatred was pretty pointless in the end.

 

 

Unlikely, so here is the alternate, non-betraying-the-Shadow option.

 

Again, two ways I see it, I can't decide yet.

 

1. Kills Rand, or thinks he kills Rand, and is all triumphant and such, but Rand comes back and kills him in his moment of glory.

2. Demandred is so obsessed with killing Rand, while he is fighting to kill him so badly, he blocks out anything else, and someone takes him by surprise. Two people I can see doing it, I would prefer it be Logain, and his glory be saving Rand from Demandred, or Mat, which I don't particularly like, however, the parallels are too big to ignore.

[Niniel]

Moridin: I hope he dies. He isn´t interested in living. Who will kill him? I think Padan Fain or Rand.

 

Demandred: I hope it will be Mat or maybe Logain. It could be Graendal though.

 

Graendal: I hope she will get the time to be Nae´bliss before she dies. Even though it didn´t end good for her in ToM I hope she will become powerful again. On her way to the top she could kill Demandred. Not very likely but it would be fun if she killed another forsaken. lol Aviendha hasn´t killed any forsaken yet. Maybe she will be the one killing Graendal?

 

Cyndane: I hope Moriraine gets to deal with her. Or Min.

 

Moghedien: The best ending would be if everyone thought she was dead but then in the last chapter (or even pages) we will see her hiding behind a corner.

[Aqua Weaver]

One of the things that has always struck me about the surviving Forsaken is that Cyndane and Moghedien's fates seem to be linked with Moridin's due to the fact that their mindtraps are held by him. Therefore, I can't see either of them surviving the last battle or in Cyndane's case defecting. That said, I think both of them will be killed before Moridin dies.

 

I have a funny feeling that Demandred's obsession with killing Rand will be his undoing. I suspect he will fataly injury Rand and Moridin will kill him in retaliation.

 

I concur with what seems to be the growing consensus that Graendal's fate will be difficult to determine. For reasons stated above I doubt that she will be mindtrapped or otherwise the death of one Forsaken, Moridin, will spell the demise of three of the remaining four (assuming Moridin perishes first). I agree that she may turn on Demandred, especially if he injures Rand, as doing so would undoubtedly cause her to regain favour with both Moridin and the Dark One. I think she will actually survive and retreat to Seanchan and would have been the main antagonist of the Outrigger novels.

 

Aqua

[Luckers]

One of the things that has always struck me about the surviving Forsaken is that Cyndane and Moghedien's fates seem to be linked with Moridin's due to the fact that their mindtraps are held by him. Therefore, I can't see either of them surviving the last battle or in Cyndane's case defecting. That said I think both of them will be killed before Moridin dies.

 

I have a funny feeling that Demandred's obsession with killing Rand will be his undoing. I suspect he will fataly injury Rand and Moridin will kill him in retaliation.

 

I concur with what seems to be the growing consensus that Graendal's fate will be difficult to determine. For reasons stated aobve I doubt that she will be mindtrapped or othertherwise the death of one Forsaken, Moridin, will spell the demise of three of the reamining four (assuming Moridin perishes first). I agree that she may turn on Demandred especially if he injurs Rand as doing so would undoubtedly cause her to regain favour with both Moridin and the Dark One. I think she will actually survive and retreat to Seanchan and would have been the main antagonist of the Outrigger novels.

 

Aqua

 

I like that idea about the Outriggers, though again after TofM if that's to be the case then she'd going to need to recover a lot of cred in aMoL. Simply surviving would not put her in a credible position to be the main antagonist.

[elric]

Morridin -> rand

 

Demandred -> Logain

 

Moghedein -> Nynaeve

 

Graendeil -> personally i dont like that main chars do EVERYTHING in a story , i hope that Paulin+ Theodorin will kill her (cycle ambush) or Alivia

 

Lanfear -> hopefully Min backstab her while she fight a cycle of Elain+ Avienda -> wives vs mythological Ex fight :))

[TristanWebb]

Demandred killing whichever forsaken kills Rand the first time is something that has been foreshadowed a bit and I really like the idea.

[TootThatHorn]

Demandred killing whichever forsaken kills Rand the first time is something that has been foreshadowed a bit and I really like the idea.

 

That sounds interesting, what foreshadows that?

[Maleshub]

Demandred killing whichever forsaken kills Rand the first time is something that has been foreshadowed a bit and I really like the idea.

 

That sounds interesting, what foreshadows that?

 

This might be the foreshadowing:

 

TGS:

 

 

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

 

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill."

 

"And what say you of this, Demandred?" Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

 

"I want Lews Therin," Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. "Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she'd killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al'Thor. Nobody but me."

 

[TootThatHorn]

Demandred killing whichever forsaken kills Rand the first time is something that has been foreshadowed a bit and I really like the idea.

 

That sounds interesting, what foreshadows that?

 

This might be the foreshadowing:

 

TGS:

 

 

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

 

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill."

 

"And what say you of this, Demandred?" Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

 

"I want Lews Therin," Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. "Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she'd killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al'Thor. Nobody but me."

 

 

Ya that seems pretty dang good right there.

[thisguy]

One of the things that has always struck me about the surviving Forsaken is that Cyndane and Moghedien's fates seem to be linked with Moridin's due to the fact that their mindtraps are held by him. Therefore, I can't see either of them surviving the last battle or in Cyndane's case defecting. That said, I think both of them will be killed before Moridin dies.

 

I have a funny feeling that Demandred's obsession with killing Rand will be his undoing. I suspect he will fataly injury Rand and Moridin will kill him in retaliation.

 

I concur with what seems to be the growing consensus that Graendal's fate will be difficult to determine. For reasons stated above I doubt that she will be mindtrapped or otherwise the death of one Forsaken, Moridin, will spell the demise of three of the remaining four (assuming Moridin perishes first). I agree that she may turn on Demandred, especially if he injures Rand, as doing so would undoubtedly cause her to regain favour with both Moridin and the Dark One. I think she will actually survive and retreat to Seanchan and would have been the main antagonist of the Outrigger novels.

 

Aqua

It's funny that Rand will be going to Shayol Ghul with Nyna and Moiraine isn't it, when Moridin will be with Cyndane and Moghedien. The three are matched with their opposites.

[FarShainMael]

VERY good catch!!!

[WMTom]

One of the things I thought was pretty big but have not heard a lot of was the tower dream Egwene had. Thirteen towers, some falling, one starts to fall but catches and rises higher than all the others. The timing seemed to me to be more associated with the present. Right now, only Graendal seems to be falling. I do not have my books infront of me now but I seem to recall several mentions of the Forsaken being encouraged to fight and even kill each other to ensure only the strongest survived. Graendal's plot line has been ambiguous from the beginning. I like her for taking over Nae'blis after the fall of Mordin.

[Danjaman]

Very interesting discussion from everyone, I love reading this stuff.

 

Morridin: I always liked the body swap theory, if for the quirkyness alone - though i didn't believe in it fully. However, in tGS (after Luckers wrote up the theory) there was the prophecy "in his hands shall he hold a blade of light and the three will become one", keyword being hands, not hand. After that, I was swayed, I would be fine if that's how he died.

On top of this, I think Ishamael was way to intelligent and philosophical to just be blasted away with the OP. I hope that before his death he has a ten minute speech that echoes tEotW prologue. (The battle has been fought a thousand times! For 3000 years I ruled the world! etc.)

 

Demandred: I really haven't the slightest idea.

 

Moghedien: I really want to see her survive, but i don't think she will. She's the spider, and one would think that she would wait out TG in the shadows, but what I like the most about her character is that she gives in to her hatred for Nynaeve too easily. I expect she'll reveal herself as she did in aCoS, and die for it.

 

Greandal: I don't like her nearly as much as Moghy, but if anyone will suvive TF, it's her.

 

Cynfear/Landane: I generally don't like the idea of straight, head-on, 1 vs. 1 rivalry battles, but if Moiraine could kill her once, she can do it again.

 

@WMTom: Graendal as Nae'blis would be pretty cool, but I doubt the FS would go so far as to kill Morridin. More than anything, I get a sense of awe - if not fear - from the forsaken POVs, when they're with him. If I was the DO, I'd say (in caps) "alright guys, competion is great - let the LoC rule and all that jazz - but seriously, killing Nae'blis is going too far'.

[matisawesome]

Personally I want Demadrad to survive reason; not much against him except that he's evil and doesn't want to survive, also the rest of the foresaken joined the dark for power, he joined because honestly his life sucked