The Horn of valere and the dragon

[Knivy]

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

They seem to need three things to follow, the Dragon, the banner and the horn. So if a dark friend blew the horn, but had neither the Dragon or the banner, would they mill about aimlessly, fight for the horn-blower, or find the Dragon?

There was a requirement for Horn, Dragon and Banner at Falme. There is no real indication that these things are always needed - it could be just a one time requirement. It was needed then to announce the Dragon. So if a Drakfriend blew the Horn, and there were no further requirements, they should be able to command the Heroes.

 

actually im 100% sure that hawkings says something about that,

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

 

so that suggest that for atleast this age(or champion of the light vs DO war) all three must be required so this time the horn is directly associated with the dragon, but this raises another question, what would happen if ,as some of theories say that maybe rand will fight in the BT , then the horn would be useless ,as they have the horn maybe, the banner but no dragon, so they still would be held back

I take that to mean that if the banner and dragon are there, then they must follow the banner.

 

But Rand and the banner were in Tear at the time, then it would have worked just fine without the banner.

[lolguy26]

I don't think that's true all 3 must be there as that's sort of the rule for this age

[Knivy]

I don't think that's true all 3 must be there as that's sort of the rule for this age

Why?

[BFG]

I don't think that's true all 3 must be there as that's sort of the rule for this age

Why?

 

 

 

The horn summons them, so it has to be present.

 

But after they've been summoned, they follow Rand and not Mat, the battle's linked to Rand even though Mat blew the horn. It's possible that the banner was just necessary the one time to announce that Rand is the Dragon, or maybe it was needed as an indication that he accepted being the Dragon, either way for that one instance it seems necessary that all three were needed. Since it's now unlikely that the three will be at the Last Battle seperately it's more of a philosophical debate, since Rand (and his banners) will be at the last battle even if Perrin doesn't make it, and Mat must be there to blow the horn, otherwise the whole point is moot.

 

From a turn the wheel point of view it also works quite well. Right at the beginning of the story we're introduced to 3 young men from the Two Rivers, with great destinies, Rand, Mat and Perrin are tied together through Taveran and being the Dragon, Horn-blower and Banner-holder, all important roles independant of the fact that Rands got major power, Mat has major tactics and Perrin has a massive army - the fact that they all have multiple roles keeps things balanced.

 

(and off-topic, potentially Rand, Nyn and Eg in a circle with Callandor - although I'm not sure if Callandor is now Rands, or whether it was passed on. Nyn's agreed to go, but Eg hasn't and so I know there are a lot of points open to debate and I don't necessarily have a strong opinion on them, I just think it works quite nicely and thematically works well)

[Knivy]

I don't think that's true all 3 must be there as that's sort of the rule for this age

Why?

 

 

 

The horn summons them, so it has to be present.

 

But after they've been summoned, they follow Rand and not Mat, the battle's linked to Rand even though Mat blew the horn. It's possible that the banner was just necessary the one time to announce that Rand is the Dragon, or maybe it was needed as an indication that he accepted being the Dragon, either way for that one instance it seems necessary that all three were needed. Since it's now unlikely that the three will be at the Last Battle seperately it's more of a philosophical debate, since Rand (and his banners) will be at the last battle even if Perrin doesn't make it, and Mat must be there to blow the horn, otherwise the whole point is moot.

 

From a turn the wheel point of view it also works quite well. Right at the beginning of the story we're introduced to 3 young men from the Two Rivers, with great destinies, Rand, Mat and Perrin are tied together through Taveran and being the Dragon, Horn-blower and Banner-holder, all important roles independant of the fact that Rands got major power, Mat has major tactics and Perrin has a massive army - the fact that they all have multiple roles keeps things balanced.

 

(and off-topic, potentially Rand, Nyn and Eg in a circle with Callandor - although I'm not sure if Callandor is now Rands, or whether it was passed on. Nyn's agreed to go, but Eg hasn't and so I know there are a lot of points open to debate and I don't necessarily have a strong opinion on them, I just think it works quite nicely and thematically works well)

 

I agree that it might be necessary for that one time, but only because they were all there. Without Rand and the banner, they would have followed Mat.

[lolguy26]

I don't think that's true all 3 must be there as that's sort of the rule for this age

Why?

 

 

 

The horn summons them, so it has to be present.

 

But after they've been summoned, they follow Rand and not Mat, the battle's linked to Rand even though Mat blew the horn. It's possible that the banner was just necessary the one time to announce that Rand is the Dragon, or maybe it was needed as an indication that he accepted being the Dragon, either way for that one instance it seems necessary that all three were needed. Since it's now unlikely that the three will be at the Last Battle seperately it's more of a philosophical debate, since Rand (and his banners) will be at the last battle even if Perrin doesn't make it, and Mat must be there to blow the horn, otherwise the whole point is moot.

 

From a turn the wheel point of view it also works quite well. Right at the beginning of the story we're introduced to 3 young men from the Two Rivers, with great destinies, Rand, Mat and Perrin are tied together through Taveran and being the Dragon, Horn-blower and Banner-holder, all important roles independant of the fact that Rands got major power, Mat has major tactics and Perrin has a massive army - the fact that they all have multiple roles keeps things balanced.

 

(and off-topic, potentially Rand, Nyn and Eg in a circle with Callandor - although I'm not sure if Callandor is now Rands, or whether it was passed on. Nyn's agreed to go, but Eg hasn't and so I know there are a lot of points open to debate and I don't necessarily have a strong opinion on them, I just think it works quite nicely and thematically works well)

 

I agree that it might be necessary for that one time, but only because they were all there. Without Rand and the banner, they would have followed Mat.

 

it was necessary for this age and check that hawking does say that the he is tied to the banner, and the dragon , so that would show that both have to be there

[Knivy]

But the horn can be sounded at any time, and they are summoned.

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

This says that the presence of the banner and Rand are what hold him back from following Mat.

[Suttree]

But the horn can be sounded at any time, and they are summoned.

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

This says that the presence of the banner and Rand are what hold him back from following Mat.

 

You have the right of it Knivy. The "weave of this moment is set" refers to the situation at Falme not the entire age.

[lolguy26]

ooh well i guess that was as the wheel weaved

[Luckers]

The Horn can be sounded without the Dragon present, in which case they are simply bound to obey the Hornsounder. If the Dragon is present, they feel a binding to follow him as well as obey the Hornsounder--at Falme that was fine because Rand and Mat were in agreement, but if someone ever were to try and blow the Horn and command the Heroes against the Dragon it would create a rift in the pattern.

[Aulduron]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

No. The false Dragons could not have shared the same soul as Rand.

[lolguy26]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

No. The false Dragons could not have shared the same soul as Rand.

 

True

[b3arz3rg3r]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

No. The false Dragons could not have shared the same soul as Rand.

 

Who is to say that the current Dragon Soul is the original Dragon. It could be that the one who turned to the Shadow in a previous incarnation as the Dragon was Isha'mael or perhaps Demandred. Hundreds of lives down the wheel they were spun out as Dragon, turned and their replacement was Rand's soul.

[Suttree]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

No. The false Dragons could not have shared the same soul as Rand.

 

Who is to say that the current Dragon Soul is the original Dragon. It could be that the one who turned to the Shadow in a previous incarnation as the Dragon was Isha'mael or perhaps Demandred. Hundreds of lives down the wheel they were spun out as Dragon, turned and their replacement was Rand's soul.

 

Because RJ said Ishy wasn't lying when he claimed Rand's soul was turned. In text Ishy was referring to Rand, not some generic CoL. We also know that Rand and Ishy's soul are linke like Birgittte and Gaidal to frequently be woven together in this battle.

[lolguy26]

Hawkwing didn't look for the banner before moving out. That implies to me that it was unusual to need the banner.

 

Only Birgitte knows those song are about her. Rands soul may very well have many songs about him too. Some of the false dragons, particularly Guiarre, may have been him too.

No. The false Dragons could not have shared the same soul as Rand.

 

Who is to say that the current Dragon Soul is the original Dragon. It could be that the one who turned to the Shadow in a previous incarnation as the Dragon was Isha'mael or perhaps Demandred. Hundreds of lives down the wheel they were spun out as Dragon, turned and their replacement was Rand's soul.

 

Because RJ said Ishy wasn't lying when he claimed Rand's soul was turned. In text Ishy was referring to Rand, not some generic CoL. We also know that Rand and Ishy's soul are linke like Birgittte and Gaidal to frequently be woven together in this battle.

 

Adding to what you said i read that RJ that each turning of the wheel the had the same fight but everything else was different

[Pug]

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

so that means the horn is linked to the banner of the dragon

 

 

 

I always thought that the thing that held Hawking back was the fact that the Seanchan are descendants of his old empire.

[TristanWebb]

All through TGH Moiraine was certain that the Pattern would force Rand to proclaim himself, and it did so by not letting the Heroes loose without the banner. It in no way implies that the Heroes have to follow the banner on every summoning, just that particular one when the Pattern needed the Dragon. There is a certain panicy feel to the pattern in TGH throwing up false dragons left and right to try to not be unravelled and when it had a direct influence on events it made sure that it happened the right way.

[XoMeltdownoX]

All through TGH Moiraine was certain that the Pattern would force Rand to proclaim himself, and it did so by not letting the Heroes loose without the banner. It in no way implies that the Heroes have to follow the banner on every summoning, just that particular one when the Pattern needed the Dragon. There is a certain panicy feel to the pattern in TGH throwing up false dragons left and right to try to not be unravelled and when it had a direct influence on events it made sure that it happened the right way.

That is an excellent explanation of why the banner was needed.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I'm pretty sure RJ only said that the Dragon, not Rand's soul, had turned before, but he didn't elaborate on what happened afterwards from what I can remember.

[Suttree]

I'm pretty sure RJ only said that the Dragon, not Rand's soul, had turned before, but he didn't elaborate on what happened afterwards from what I can remember.

 

Nope RJ specifically said Ishy wasn't lying when he claimed Rand's soul had turned. The question was asked about a passage in text in which Ishy said "you have served" to Rand, not some generic CoL. Further Brandon has told us Ishy was correct in that him and Rand's souls continiously fight the battle and are spun out together like Birg and Gaidal.

 

RJ elaborated further in a different quote saying the result has been a draw in those instances.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I'm pretty sure RJ only said that the Dragon, not Rand's soul, had turned before, but he didn't elaborate on what happened afterwards from what I can remember.

 

Nope RJ specifically said Ishy wasn't lying when he claimed Rand's soul had turned. The question was asked about a passage in text in which Ishy said "you have served" to Rand, not some generic CoL. Further Brandon has told us Ishy was correct in that him and Rand's souls continiously fight the battle and are spun out together like Birg and Gaidal.

 

RJ elaborated further in a different quote saying the result has been a draw in those instances.

 

Well, in that case too bad. I would have liked the idea of Ishy having once been the Dragon and then becoming the no. 1 of the DO after he had failed.