Rand vs Cadsuane

[thisguy]

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid. He could use Choden Kal, which lanfear thinks they can challenge the creator with. He can weave multiple weaves. If he shoots lightning bolts at her with either sa'angreal, she's a goner. They do not use direct weaves. He can chop balefire in half with callandor.

 

Anywho, goodnight.

[Shig]

He could use Choden Kal, which lanfear thinks they can challenge the creator with.

 

 

He gone darn broked it

[fionwe1987]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

[atlas74]

then he smashes her nose with his nub and drives Justice through her black AS heart...I win again Cadsuane...HAHAHA,

 

Bwahaha great post atlas!

 

Thanks man! Lol.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

[FarShainMael]

That interaction between Rand and Cads reminds me irresistably of Captain Picard and Q. Not that Picard ever spanked Q, but he kept him off-balance in a similar way.

[Vardar]

Yes his taveren nature would be the difference. Without that though Cads w/her Paralis-Net would give him all he could handle. She has a version of Mat's medallion after all in her hair pieces. Rands first strike not working could be taken advantage of. For all that he would be better trained by far than the others channelers, she has taken down more men than any 20 other reds combined including Logain.

You can very certainly call me a Rand fanboy, and I no that you Suttree are a Cadsuane fanboy. Now i mean this to be taken seriously with out trying to pick a fight with you, but if cadsuane is the most powerful being on earth why doesnt she start takeing out the forsaken, or challenge the DO herself. Or if she is so interested in saving the world why was she in her retreat mode growing roses when she could have been out doing a service to the side of the light... It stands to reason that if she could beat rand so simpily she should take his place... I am getting angrey even typing about her i hate her that much.... but i have read everything that you have wrote and argued about cads looking for a flaw and trying to exploit it, your very thorough, but beyond all the facts and proof could your love for her and hate for rand be making her out to be just a little to powerful?

 

For the record, I've been saying that for months since I was told that one of her Terangral stops direct weaves totally. It makes 0 sense in the context of the book. I've asked about 10 people I know who read the stories, yet don't access the forums or RJ quotes and they all agree that not only does it make no sense, but it kinda ruins a part of the book for them.

 

Lanfear's surprise when she assaults Alvi shows that the forsaken knew of no such items as that, thus the very idea that she's not out and about slaying forsaken at will is crazy! (And now people run forward and say that the forsaken would recover quickly, however even a minor pause should be enough to allow Cads to destroy them utterly).

 

To this day, this still pisses me off more than anything about this series.

[Vardar]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

 

That's how you see this going? Rand and Cads get into a one power battle. He has no idea that she has an item of power that blocks direct weaves, he knows he is the more powerful channeler and yet despite that he is going to risk using a flawed item of power(which has gone disastrously wrong before) in order to drop a mountain on her head as his first attack ...errmmm...scratches head. Don't think Vegas would have the greatest odds on that being how it plays out.

 

In addition to address this odd notion that brute force trumps all. As the brilliant Pat Rothfuss said:

 

What I did find oddly galling were some of the comments along the lines of, “Bast could never win against X. X has a power level of 9000!!!1!....

 

But vastly more irritating to me is the odd opinion that strength/power is the key factor when two people come into conflict.

 

The truth is, I find that sentiment more than irritating, I find it troubling. It means a lot of you haven’t been paying attention to the books I know you must have read.

 

If power is the only important thing, then Frodo loses against Sauron. Hell, if power’s the only important thing then Gandalf loses against Sauron. If magic is the deciding factor of a fight, then four plucky kids from England get their asses turned to stone by the White Which.

 

So yeah, Rake can turn into a dragon, but the point of fairy tales is that they teach us that dragons can be beaten.

 

You said in another thread that experience trumps that Ter'Angreal. You, Luckers, Ares, etc all said this when I claimed Lanfear should have died to Aliv, who barely escaped with her life. Rand's experience with channeling would certainly trump Cads. Aliv had hundreds of years being a weapon and fighting against other channeling weapons, if Lanfear can beat her arse with the Terangreal; Rand certainly can destroy Cads.

[MasterAblar]

Rand. Even without his taveren influence, the knowledge, experience, and skill of LTT make it pretty uneven, and it also helps that he's quite a bit stronger than her. The only thing Cadsuane has going for her is her terangeal. But that's not enough. Rand may be suprised by it but there's no reason he should completely lose his ability to defend himself. Lanfear certainly didn't against Alivia, and Alivia has been a damane longer than Cadsuane has been alive. I don't think there is any third age channeller, apart from Rand more proficient in destruction weaves than her. Rand has plenty of advantages over Cadsuane, and while she's definitely no slouch, if she doesn't beat him right after he's put off balance by his weave unraveling, then I don't see her having any chance of winning. But really Cadsuane is the best of the third age I should think (although to be fair we've yet to see what Taim is fully capable of), so that's hardly a hit on her. I just think there's to much of a difference between the Third Age and the Age of Legends, and LTT was the best the AoL has to offer.

 

Now, pre-VoG is different. I believe Rand himself said that he wouldn't relish having to fight her. However even then LTT knowledge tended to slip through when it mattered most. In fact I don't believe Rand has ever been beaten in a straight up fight of the One Power (Rahvin was about to beat him but it was in TAR). Sammael came the closest. Of course Rand being Taveren can explain that, but LTT help certainly came in handy.

 

What I did find oddly galling were some of the comments along the lines of, “Bast could never win against X. X has a power level of 9000!!!1!....

 

But vastly more irritating to me is the odd opinion that strength/power is the key factor when two people come into conflict.

 

The truth is, I find that sentiment more than irritating, I find it troubling. It means a lot of you haven’t been paying attention to the books I know you must have read.

 

If power is the only important thing, then Frodo loses against Sauron. Hell, if power’s the only important thing then Gandalf loses against Sauron. If magic is the deciding factor of a fight, then four plucky kids from England get their asses turned to stone by the White Which.

 

So yeah, Rake can turn into a dragon, but the point of fairy tales is that they teach us that dragons can be beaten.

 

While strength certailny doesn't win everything, I do remember RJ saying that Balthamel would have had no chance against Aginor. And yet Aginor was not a particularly good fighter, and while he was very strong, Balthamel was pretty strong as well. Strength is what would have made the difference between those two. Were they of the same strength, I would bet on Balthamel.

[Suttree]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

[Knivy]

I wouldnt give Cads a chance of winning. Id give her a chance of surviving. Just because Rand's attacks fail, doesnt mean he would automatically stop defending himself. And the simplest thing for him to do would be just to call lightning, which isnt stopped by the ter'angreal.

 

Any thoughts on what being surrounded by power-flames would do to Mat or Cads? Id assume they (the fires) still give off heat and suck away oxygen. (I know that isnt a realistic battle strategy, but still)

[Kamin_Majere]

I always thought Cads Paralis-net worked like the copied Fox Head medallions? It gives her a good bit of protection but wouldn't stop everything like Mats does, but on the up side her's has a range to it and can disrupt weaves at a distance (like disrupting the mask of mirrors on Semi)

[Vardar]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

 

Just a quesiton, what does experience with her net have to do with anything? It's not like it takes practice to be immune to direct weaves. (this is a serious question, nothing sarcastic)

[Vardar]

I always thought Cads Paralis-net worked like the copied Fox Head medallions? It gives her a good bit of protection but wouldn't stop everything like Mats does, but on the up side her's has a range to it and can disrupt weaves at a distance (like disrupting the mask of mirrors on Semi)

 

Nope, it's the exact same thing. Full protection apparently. The disrupt thing was another item in her net specifically target to disrupt other weaves.

[thisguy]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

ok. either way - LTT or CK, he wins.

[Master of the Anvil]

Does the ter'angreal affect shielding? It seems like it wouldn't and I would think Rand's first move would be to try and slam a shield in. I'm not sure how much more powerful than someone you have to be to throw a shield in when they're already embrassing the source, but it seems possible.

 

Regardless of being able to shield her, i don't think Cads ever wins. I don't think she'd be able to hit him with anything. She is the only non-forsaken, non-taim character(not sure he has a chance, we haven't seen much) that would even put up a fight though.

[thisguy]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling. Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

[Kamin_Majere]

Nope, it's the exact same thing. Full protection apparently. The disrupt thing was another item in her net specifically target to disrupt other weaves.

Ah I guess I missed that. I've always thought it was a weakened version.

 

If she really does have all that then, yeah she should be out there hunting down and wholesale slaughtering the Chosen and the BA, why even deal with the Dragon is you can just make his over all job a cake walk by clearing out the rubble now. I mean I know she had to be there for the "laughter and tears" part, but now that's over it should be hunting time for evil channelers.

 

Back to the topic at hand... I still think Mat would win :p

On the other hand Rand would probably beat her. He's stronger than she is, has the reflexes and strength of youth going for him, and he's shown a huge aptitude with thinking on his feet. Plus he's high enough above her to simply cut her off from the True Source and then just walk over and stab her. Cads is no push over and would give him a fight to be remembered, but he has to many advantages over her and she really only had the Paralis-Net on her side now.

 

Pre VoG it might have went differently, but now I don't think it would be that close of a fight... she'd make him earn the win, but it wouldn't be very close.

[Suttree]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

 

Just a quesiton, what does experience with her net have to do with anything? It's not like it takes practice to be immune to direct weaves. (this is a serious question, nothing sarcastic)

 

Sorry was just typing fast. I meant she is the most experience channeler of this age and has the net. But practice wih it would matter. Each piece serves a different function(some we don't know yet btw) and it was obviously constructed as a complete piece at a time when there were many powerful male channelers rampaging. Someone experienced with its uses and how to create a strategy on how best to use them would make a difference.

[Vardar]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

 

Just a quesiton, what does experience with her net have to do with anything? It's not like it takes practice to be immune to direct weaves. (this is a serious question, nothing sarcastic)

 

Sorry was just typing fast. I meant she is the most experience channeler of this age and has the net. But practice wih it would matter. Each piece serves a different function(some we don't know yet btw) and it was obviously constructed as a complete piece at a time when there were many powerful male channelers rampaging. Someone experienced with its uses and how to create a strategy on how best to use them would make a difference.

 

IDK about that. AS, yes. Channeler? Naw. I think when it comes to fighting, Aliv should have her beat. She's older, and does nothing but battle other channelers.

 

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

[Vardar]

Nope, it's the exact same thing. Full protection apparently. The disrupt thing was another item in her net specifically target to disrupt other weaves.

Ah I guess I missed that. I've always thought it was a weakened version.

 

If she really does have all that then, yeah she should be out there hunting down and wholesale slaughtering the Chosen and the BA, why even deal with the Dragon is you can just make his over all job a cake walk by clearing out the rubble now. I mean I know she had to be there for the "laughter and tears" part, but now that's over it should be hunting time for evil channelers.

 

Back to the topic at hand... I still think Mat would win :p

On the other hand Rand would probably beat her. He's stronger than she is, has the reflexes and strength of youth going for him, and he's shown a huge aptitude with thinking on his feet. Plus he's high enough above her to simply cut her off from the True Source and then just walk over and stab her. Cads is no push over and would give him a fight to be remembered, but he has to many advantages over her and she really only had the Paralis-Net on her side now.

 

Pre VoG it might have went differently, but now I don't think it would be that close of a fight... she'd make him earn the win, but it wouldn't be very close.

 

She has that Angreal too, which at her power level should make her stronger than him, so no shielding. And (Per quotes again) she has a well, which can be accessed while shielded, meaning he can't even shield her if he managed too.

 

I'm not saying Rand wouldn't win, I'm saying the way the books set Cads up is horrible. She should be GOD in this world.

[thisguy]

Why is there even a debate? Of course Rand would win, Rand is several times stronger than she is. It is doubtful whether she could shield him on her own even with her angreal. Next people are going to make a thread about who would win in a fight between Olver and Lan.

 

Have people even read the actual posts? I don't believe that one person has said Cads would actually win. What has been said is take away his taveren nature and it would be a very close thing. You have Rand with all his experience/power(now thisguy has to make up his mind, does Rand get LTT memories or the CK, you obviously can't have both) v. Cads being the most experienced of current channelers with her Paralis-net which stops direct weaves and was specifically made during the Breaking to protect against male channelers. As has been mentioned any unbiased analysis should show it would be a close run thing but in the end I and Fionwe I believe as well have given the edge to Rand. Apparently even that is not good enough.

 

To have any chance she would need to capitalize on the initial surprise of his weaves not working.

 

Just a quesiton, what does experience with her net have to do with anything? It's not like it takes practice to be immune to direct weaves. (this is a serious question, nothing sarcastic)

 

Sorry was just typing fast. I meant she is the most experience channeler of this age and has the net. But practice wih it would matter. Each piece serves a different function(some we don't know yet btw) and it was obviously constructed as a complete piece at a time when there were many powerful male channelers rampaging. Someone experienced with its uses and how to create a strategy on how best to use them would make a difference.

 

IDK about that. AS, yes. Channeler? Naw. I think when it comes to fighting, Aliv should have her beat. She's older, and does nothing but battle other channelers.

 

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

I'd like to know when the medallions and nets were created - at the very end of the war? You'd think everybody would be wearing one.

[Suttree]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

[thisguy]

Although I wondered why Rand/LTT knew what her net was, yet Lanfear had never heard of a Ter'Angreal that blocked channeling. I mean you would think it would have come up during the war. One of the first things.

 

While Paralis-Nets were around in the AoL they all served different functions based on what thy were for. The individual piece that disrupts weaves was invented during the breaking. It did not exist yet in the AoL

thanks. That answers my question.

[Vardar]

Brute force would matter because he could just drop a mountain on her.

And Cadsuane being blind would wait for the mountin to fall rather than escaping via Gateway?

 

He is at least 3 times more powerful than her without aid.

 

He's no such thing. He may be thrice as strong as Daigian, who's the weakest Aes Sedai. Rand is about twice as strong as Moiraine and Cadsuane is 60-65% of his strength.

 

Thrice as strong indeed!

Even if we went your way, a person 35% stronger than another person would always beat them arm wrestling. Where do you get your numbers from, by the way? Or, is this just your opinion?

 

 

There's a number chart out there. Women go 1 to 21, 21 being the max. Men go a few levels about that, so to 25 or 26. Rand is 25/26, Lanfear 21 (Til she was beat down) Cads being a 14. However I don't think it's a linear thing.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart

 

Interesting read regardless.