The Fate of Padan Fain

[athrian]

It has been my theory that Rand would somehow stuff Fain down the bore-hole to keep the Dark One occupied while he (Rand) sealed up the bore. The logic was that Fain (mortal) and the Dark One (immortal) would be attracted to each other until such time as Fain's substance/energy burnt out, allowing Rand sufficient time to do whatever he needs to do. Given that Fain represents the chaotic independent-source evil of free men, that could take a while.

 

Based on the above comments, I'm now starting to wonder something different.

 

Perhaps Fain's evil will be attracted, not to the Dark One, but to the bore itself. Rand stuffs Fain down the bore, Fain makes contact with the boundaries of the bore, and the attraction/negation causes the bore to collapse on itself. Both the bore and Fain get negated from existence. The Dark One's prison boundaries are once again whole and unblemished, and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

If the bore is not unique to this turning of the wheel, that's pretty much the way it has to go. The bore is created in one age, eliminated (NOT mended - there's a difference) in the next age, and the Wheel turns onward with the prison intact until the next complete turning when the bore is created anew.

 

I'm not sure that Rand is thinking of anything this complicated. I think his line of thought of doing something 'more permanent' is simply that he thinks he can kill the DO, and thus end the cycle of prison/bore/patch/etc.

[Alonin]

_{One of my top theories involving Alivia helping kill rand, body-swap, and Fain. Enjoy.}

 

_{At the bore, t'averan and Perrin and Egwene's TAR control will keep Shayol Ghul from killing them all. Rand is then linked with Alivia and Nynaeve. Alivia somehow gets control, possible for weapon reasons, or maybe she's weaving the sealing or fighting Moridin. Fain comes out of the darkness. Alivia decides to devote her energy to what she's doing. Since Rand is missing his hand and is no longer a master swordsman, Fain kills him, fulfilling his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul shall free them from the shadow, and due to Alivia not helping Rand kill Fain, she helps him die. Mat, who is nearby, attacks and kills Fain, managing to resist the SL daggers power due to his buffer to it. Now, because of Rand's balefire link to Moridin, he then takes over Moridin's body. Rand then confronts shadar Haran. Using his new body which has both hands and his remembered swordsmaster skills, he kills shadar haran which possible shakes the dark one. Then using his dead shadar Logoth tainted body as a buffer and mat somehow using the dagger as well, Rand links with the two women again and then seals the DO away.}

[Kestrel]

_{At the bore, t'averan and Perrin and Egwene's TAR control will keep Shayol Ghul from killing them all. Rand is then linked with Alivia and Nynaeve. Alivia somehow gets control, possible for weapon reasons, or maybe she's weaving the sealing or fighting Moridin.}

 

One flaw in this scenario: Michael Whelan's cover.

 

Rand is entering Shayol Ghul linked to Nynaeve and Moraine, not Nynaeve and Alivia. Since the prophecy says three become one, not four, we can rule out Alivia being part of the circle but hiding behind a pillar.

[Alonin]

But in the cover, how can we be sure that Rand is currently linked? In all descriptions of callandor being channeled through, it glows. It is not even glowing at that point. Also, has anyone officially stated that those two people are Nynaeve and Moraine?

[Suttree]

Also, has anyone officially stated that those two people are Nynaeve and Moraine?

 

Yes.

[thisguy]

_{At the bore, t'averan and Perrin and Egwene's TAR control will keep Shayol Ghul from killing them all. Rand is then linked with Alivia and Nynaeve. Alivia somehow gets control, possible for weapon reasons, or maybe she's weaving the sealing or fighting Moridin.}

 

One flaw in this scenario: Michael Whelan's cover.

 

Rand is entering Shayol Ghul linked to Nynaeve and Moraine, not Nynaeve and Alivia. Since the prophecy says three become one, not four, we can rule out Alivia being part of the circle but hiding behind a pillar.

It's a possibility, though. Two ways - one is if the cover doesn't show everyone there. The other is if Perrin and Egwene go to Shayol Ghul in TAR while Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve go in the waking world. I'm not saying I agree with Alonin's assessment, just saying there's a way around that. We're all just guessing. :)

[Lacanos]

Alonin, can I just say I really dislike it when people make their text larger - all it does is give the impression you feel that your opinion is simply more valid than anyone else's. I'm sure that's not actually what you think, but I otherwise don't understand it?

 

As for your theory, I'm afraid it doesn't stand up. Mat isn't permanently buffered from exposure to the dagger again - all they did in TDR was break down his current bond to it (the one that was killing him).

 

Also, how does control of TAR & being ta'veren protect from Shayol Ghul (whatever that means?)

 

Ultimately, such theories come across as really fanfic-y. I do actually rather like the idea that a tainted body could work as a buffer in some way, I think that's inventive and has some merit in itself, but the rest is either not new, or not plausible,

[Alonin]

Sorry about the font. I accidentally changed it and I tried to pick the one that seemed to be the right size.

 

For the TAR part, I have a slight theory that the area around Shayol Ghul is somewhat a mixture of the real world and TAR, which is why the reality there is like clay in the DO hand. So that means the light needs dreamwalkers to prevent the DO from killing them all the moment they arrive there.

 

And I have seen more "fanfic-y" theories than mine.

[Finnssss22]

I think people should get anything to do with the Bore or "Bore hole" out of their minds.

 

There will be no patching, no fixing/sealing of the Bore. The Bore will be irrelevent.

The DO's prison needs to be made whole again. Herid Fel was torn apart for for his theories on this to Rand and Rand hinted at this in ToM and it the previews from aMoL that we have seen (Rand talking to Perrin about blacksmithing, repairing a broken or shattered piece of metal).

 

The problem is that completely destroying the DO's prison would completely set him free, something that has never happened. Even in the AoL, the DO was only partially free through the open Bore.

 

This, IMO, is where Fain or the Dagger comes into play. Something is needed to distract/counter/fight the DO after Rand not only breaks the Seals but also shatters the prison itself so that Rand can some how make a new prison.

That something is Fain or the Dagger.

 

I say "or the Dagger" because I believe Perrin will kill Fain before this event, leaving the Dagger to be used by Rand. Most likely "infecting" the DO through Shadar Haran. This is when Rand makes the new prison.

 

That's my theory anyway but either way forget about the Bore or anything to do with a solution having to do with it.

[athrian]

I think people should get anything to do with the Bore or "Bore hole" out of their minds.

 

There will be no patching, no fixing/sealing of the Bore. The Bore will be irrelevent.

The DO's prison needs to be made whole again. Herid Fel was torn apart for for his theories on this to Rand and Rand hinted at this in ToM and it the previews from aMoL that we have seen (Rand talking to Perrin about blacksmithing, repairing a broken or shattered piece of metal).

 

The problem is that completely destroying the DO's prison would completely set him free, something that has never happened. Even in the AoL, the DO was only partially free through the open Bore.

 

This, IMO, is where Fain or the Dagger comes into play. Something is needed to distract/counter/fight the DO after Rand not only breaks the Seals but also shatters the prison itself so that Rand can some how make a new prison.

That something is Fain or the Dagger.

 

I say "or the Dagger" because I believe Perrin will kill Fain before this event, leaving the Dagger to be used by Rand. Most likely "infecting" the DO through Shadar Haran. This is when Rand makes the new prison.

 

That's my theory anyway but either way forget about the Bore or anything to do with a solution having to do with it.

 

If the ages are cyclical, then this issue with the Bore has come up before, meaning in past turnings of the Wheel, the Dragon faced the same issue of having to make a new prison for the DO. So while the method might not be the same every time, either freeing the DO completely has happened before, or there is a way to remake the prison without having to free him.

[Finnssss22]

I think people should get anything to do with the Bore or "Bore hole" out of their minds.

 

There will be no patching, no fixing/sealing of the Bore. The Bore will be irrelevent.

The DO's prison needs to be made whole again. Herid Fel was torn apart for for his theories on this to Rand and Rand hinted at this in ToM and it the previews from aMoL that we have seen (Rand talking to Perrin about blacksmithing, repairing a broken or shattered piece of metal).

 

The problem is that completely destroying the DO's prison would completely set him free, something that has never happened. Even in the AoL, the DO was only partially free through the open Bore.

 

This, IMO, is where Fain or the Dagger comes into play. Something is needed to distract/counter/fight the DO after Rand not only breaks the Seals but also shatters the prison itself so that Rand can some how make a new prison.

That something is Fain or the Dagger.

 

I say "or the Dagger" because I believe Perrin will kill Fain before this event, leaving the Dagger to be used by Rand. Most likely "infecting" the DO through Shadar Haran. This is when Rand makes the new prison.

 

That's my theory anyway but either way forget about the Bore or anything to do with a solution having to do with it.

 

If the ages are cyclical, then this issue with the Bore has come up before, meaning in past turnings of the Wheel, the Dragon faced the same issue of having to make a new prison for the DO. So while the method might not be the same every time, either freeing the DO completely has happened before, or there is a way to remake the prison without having to free him.

 

 

Pretty much what Herid Fel said. The prison must be made whole again, as if it was never bored into in the first place. He also talks about clearing away the rubble (the old prison) first to do it.

 

Like I said, I don't think the issue is whether or not the DO will be completely free, he will be. It's how the DO is held at bay while the new prison is built.

 

Just like I don't believe the "Twice dawns the day" prophecy has anything to do with eclipses, time moving backwards or anything like that.

It will be the DO being free turing the sky dark just like it happened in Rand's vision in Rhuiden when he witnessed the original drilling of the Bore. That darkness clearing will be the second dawn IMO.

[Jong]

Going back to the OP, Brandon's presumed statement (reference please?) that he wants to distance Fain from a Gollum type character would seem to indicate that Fain's fate is ultimately not to serve as a prophylactic protecting the one power from the Dark one's taint.

 

Indeed, if all that were needed was to push Fain down the bore before caulking it up, then why would Saidin and Saidar both be needed to seal it up?

 

Is Fain mentioned in the Prophecies anywhere? The prophecies lay out what is needed to win. If he isn't mentioned, then he probably isn't needed. I suppose its possible that refrences are made to Fain the Prophecies and we just don't know about them or no one figured out what they mean.

 

Rand seems to be focused on improving on LTT's plan. Using Fain does not seem to enter into that.

 

Even if Rand wanted to use Fain, its also not obvious how Rand would control Fain long enough to use him. The only way I can see Rand manipulating Fain to do anything would be to give Fain what he wants - run into the Bore himself and then when Fain Chases him, seal himself and Fain inside, then die.

 

This is also complicated by the fact that the bore is not a physical hole that you can walk into, it's a hole in the pattern, described as existing everywhere and nowhere.

 

IMO Fain represents a much more random element who might just add to the chaos, but not serve a truly constructive purpose on either side. I am not sure that Fain wouldn't be able to taint the OP just as the DO did.

[plague fiend]

Funny that BS said that he wanted to distance Fain from Gollum. I think in the end, it will be a combination of Fain and Rand dieing together in the right palce that will seal the DO prison. What better seal than one that will fight against the DO, and does so remarkedly well. Two guys, fighting in a volcano one falls in. However, I think it will be both falling in. Not literally of course.

[Tensai0211]

While reading through this thread i was hit with a crazy idea about the "three become one" prophesy. I've seen people posit the idea of the three different powers or the three Ta'veren becoming one but i got to thinking what is the dark one's prison? could it be that the three in the prophesy is the Pattern, TAR and whatever reality the dark one's prison is? yes i know crazy idea.

[putts]

Just a couple things ...

 

From the wiki:

Robert Jordan has confirmed rumors suggesting that he may be something entirely new, an entity or amalgamation never seen before in the Pattern.

 

 

There's no estimating what Padan can or can't do. He is a brand new entity. Nothing like him was alive when LTT tried to seal the DO the first time.

 

Also, you can't take "Mashadar vs Taint" as any sort of predecessor. Mashadar was a force that resulted from what Mordeth did to SL. It is not Mordeth. It's a side effect of Mordeth's existence. In the same sense, the Taint was a side effect of the DO. So who is to say that the DO would ultimately destroy Fain in a second? I expect that's no more true than saying the DO can swat aside Rand without blinking an eyelash.

 

Who's to say that Rand won't try to use Fain in some way against the DO? If he is trying to improve upon LTT's original plan, then he needs access to something that LTT didn't have. What better than using the Shadow against itself ... which is what the people of SL originally meant to do in the first. Whatever that attempt was, it seems that it's represented in the form of Mordeth. So, we can probably assume he is the embodiment of that intent.

[Suttree]

Just a couple things ...

 

From the wiki:

Robert Jordan has confirmed rumors suggesting that he may be something entirely new, an entity or amalgamation never seen before in the Pattern.

 

Just a heads up putts, the Wiki isn't an excepted source. Althoght this piece is pretty spot on there are far too many mistakes and assumptions overall. Best to pull the direct quote from the Interview database...

[putts]

I tried to find it but without any exact wording, I wasn't able to find it at the time. If people are really desperate for the quote then I'll try to find it later, but that seems to properly reflect what we know of Fain.

[Finnssss22]

I tried to find it but without any exact wording, I wasn't able to find it at the time. If people are really desperate for the quote then I'll try to find it later, but that seems to properly reflect what we know of Fain.

 

I think you're referring to the quote where RJ says that Fain is unique to this age. A quote which some took as meaning he was unique, never before seen period but that is not what he said.

 

Question

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

[ozimandias]

I tried to find it but without any exact wording, I wasn't able to find it at the time. If people are really desperate for the quote then I'll try to find it later, but that seems to properly reflect what we know of Fain.

 

I think you're referring to the quote where RJ says that Fain is unique to this age. A quote which some took as meaning he was unique, never before seen period but that is not what he said.

 

Question

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

While I agree with what I think is your point that 'unique to this particular age' might be taken as this particular section of the turning of the wheel, and something like him has maybe been seen before in what some call the 3rd age. But the rest of that quote such as 'you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the pattern' seems to lean towards the 'never before seen' side of the coin to me.

[putts]

I tried to find it but without any exact wording, I wasn't able to find it at the time. If people are really desperate for the quote then I'll try to find it later, but that seems to properly reflect what we know of Fain.

 

I think you're referring to the quote where RJ says that Fain is unique to this age. A quote which some took as meaning he was unique, never before seen period but that is not what he said.

 

Question

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

While I agree with what I think is your point that 'unique to this particular age' might be taken as this particular section of the turning of the wheel, and something like him has maybe been seen before in what some call the 3rd age. But the rest of that quote such as 'you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the pattern' seems to lean towards the 'never before seen' side of the coin to me.

 

+1