Chapter 11

[Damer Sedai]

They arent any more special than the Borderlanders who abandoned their posts at the blight, the Red Ajah bonded to men who can channel, or the Aiel who refuse to put off gaishan white, or Aes Sedai who are happy as lapdogs to the Adam.

No they aren't, and in each and every one of these cases we don't hear the end of people wondering at the oddity of it all, having to compose themselves in the face of change. Not here; it's like everything and everyone takes this behavior as the norm.

 

You are right. I can argue that the HIgh Blood now feel free to plot against the Imperial family, I can justify that Tuon would now expect it as a matter of course... but I just dont see why a pair of innkeepers know and are blase about it. I think I even noted this discrepancy in an earlier post... I suppose one could stretch credulity and speculate that they are Listeners (or even Seekers) and suprisingly well informed, and that these secrets are pulled out of them by Matt's Ta'vaereness, but thats pretty weak sauce.

[shortkut]

Indeed, Sid has the right of it. Really surprised this is even being debated...

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

weird, I thought almost every search an we met has had their place in society changed

 

Tuon becomes empress

Selucia elevated with her

Leilwin got demoted

Suroth got demoted

Beslan was not even seanchan and he got promoted to blood or high blood

 

I'm sure there are more but I'm at work and can't check

[Suttree]

Indeed, Sid has the right of it. Really surprised this is even being debated...

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

weird, I thought almost every search an we met has had their place in society changed

 

Tuon becomes empress

Selucia elevated with her

Leilwin got demoted

Suroth got demoted

Beslan was not even seanchan and he got promoted to blood or high blood

 

I'm sure there are more but I'm at work and can't check

 

Well aside from the fact that you are naming all extraordinary people in a time like the return which is a single moment in history that would offer high reward. One must also keep in mind...

 

Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class.

 

Tuon is of the royal family so she is scheming against her brothers and sisters to win the throne. Beslan is a noble so he can be made of blood. People can be punished, people can be rewarded. But a commoner rewarded will never make high blood and it is a very rare thing for anyone to be raised. Much like Galgan is outside the top rank and it is unthinkable that he would reach in. Power struggles are between "members of the same class". The royal family are a class above. Sid did a fine job explaining it in his post above.

[shortkut]

Indeed, Sid has the right of it. Really surprised this is even being debated...

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

weird, I thought almost every search an we met has had their place in society changed

 

Tuon becomes empress

Selucia elevated with her

Leilwin got demoted

Suroth got demoted

Beslan was not even seanchan and he got promoted to blood or high blood

 

I'm sure there are more but I'm at work and can't check

 

Well aside from the fact that you are naming all extraordinary people in a time like the return which is a single moment in history that would offer high reward. One must also keep in mind...

 

Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class.

 

Tuon is of the royal family so she is scheming against her brothers and sisters to win the throne. Beslan is a noble so he can be made of blood. People can be punished, people can be rewarded. But a commoner rewarded will never make high blood and it is a very rare thing for anyone to be raised. Much like Galgan is outside the top rank and it is unthinkable that he would reach in. Power struggles are between "members of the same class". The royal family are a class above. Sid did a fine job explaining it in his post above.

then why do the books mention the possibility of people being promoted into the imperial family? We were talking about galgan, not common folk

[yoniy0]

shortkut, they can be promoted, and then compete within the new class. Emphasis on the chronology. One doesn't compete with members of a different class.

[Barid Bel Medar]

shortkut, they can be promoted, and then compete within the new class. Emphasis on the chronology. One doesn't compete with members of a different class.

 

You know, that could be an interesting point. IIRC, Tuon thinks to herself that she might just raise Galgan to the Imperial Family.

 

Edit: yeah, in ToM:47 she thinks she may just do it for his opposition of Suroth.

 

It could be that she has done so in the meantime. (perhaps it is mentioned later in the chapter)

[shortkut]

shortkut, they can be promoted, and then compete within the new class. Emphasis on the chronology. One doesn't compete with members of a different class.

since when does speculation become fact?

[yoniy0]

It could be that she has done so in the meantime. (perhaps it is mentioned later in the chapter)

That might explain the populace's attitude, but not Tuon's expectations of him, and there's still the question of whether the Empress herself is in the same class as the rest of the family.

 

since when does speculation become fact?

For one, I was explaining the quote you've asked about, and for another, the BWB -- when coupled with direct quotes from RJ -- doesn't qualify as 'speculation'.

[shortkut]

The bwb has lots if misinformation as members like to point out all the time... Unless lab fear really is the second strongest forsaken

[JakeBarnes]

Lanfear is the second strongest of the Forsaken. Look at the confrontation between her and Rand in TFOH for prrof of her strength.

[MasterAblar]

Lanfear is the second strongest of the Forsaken. Look at the confrontation between her and Rand in TFOH for prrof of her strength.

 

The BWB says that she's possibly the second strongest, something that is made rather doubtful since there are several levels of strength between the strongest woman and the strongest man, and that Aginor was very close behind Ishamael and LTT in strength. Several levels is about the same difference between Nyneave and Egwene, and I don't think anyone would claim Egwene is very close behind Nyneave. It just seems very unlikely that not one of the male Forsaken (not counting Ishamael), is in the interval between Ishamael and Lanfear.

 

That said this isn't the thread for this, and there's already one like it here.

[Suttree]

Lanfear is the second strongest of the Forsaken. Look at the confrontation between her and Rand in TFOH for prrof of her strength.

 

The BWB says that she's possibly the second strongest, something that is made rather doubtful since there are several levels of strength between the strongest woman and the strongest man, and that Aginor was very close behind Ishamael and LTT in strength. Several levels is about the same difference between Nyneave and Egwene, and I don't think anyone would claim Egwene is very close behind Nyneave. It just seems very unlikely that not one of the male Forsaken (not counting Ishamael), are in the interval between Ishamael and Lanfear.

 

That said this isn't the thread for this, and there's already one like it here.

 

Yeah it says she is the strongest female and then speculates that "possibly" she is second to Ishy. It never actually states she is. Regardless short can't look at the BWB Seanchan quote in a vacuum. As Yoniy0 points out it is supported by the text and RJ's quotes. It has been explained by numerous people why Galgan would scheme within his own rank, but would not reach two levels above himself unless he was promoted(a very rare occurrence).

 

As an aside I find it funny that people only call the BWB into question when it doesn't support their views. 99% of it is correct and yet it is claimed to be wrong so often you would think not a word in it was true. The key is to back things up with RJ and the text from the books. In this case you can check all three off the list.

[yoniy0]

Frankly, I can't find the RJ quote I thought I was referring to in this case. I did find a few other quotes regarding stratification in the Seanchan culture where RJ apparently contradict himself (all verbatim), but in none of them does he speak about how one would move between the classes, and very interestingly even when he claims a high potential for social mobility, he's careful to exclude the actual position of the Empress from that rule:

AOL Chat (Oct 18th, 1996)

Question

Just curious, but what culture(s) were the Seanchan based on?

 

Robert Jordan

A good deal of Japan, of the Shogunites, Imperial China, and in general a good many rigid hierarchical stratified societies. Too many to list really, I suppose.

 

 

Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein (Apr 7th, 2001)

Question

Which cultures are in the Seanchan? (based on things in the Guide)

 

Robert Jordan

The Seanchan also are the melting of things that have come from many different human cultures to make their culture. There have been many rigid stratified, rigidly hierarchical cultures. It's a very human thing. The concept of being able to climb above your station is a relatively new one in human culture. You were born where you were born for a reason, and that is the place you will stay, that has been the norm for human culture, for most of history.

 

 

Radio Dead Air Interview (Sep, 2005)

Ross

What do you see yourself doing next? Do you have any ideas?

 

Robert Jordan

Yes. I will be helping out my wife a little bit on a project that she will be doing--she's already signed the contract for it--she will be the major writer on an encyclopedia of the Wheel of Time. And then, when we've gotten that out of the way--actually, before we've gotten that out of the way--I will begin work on a trilogy called Infinity of Heaven set in a different world, in a completely different universe. There will be a different magic analog--not the One Power; not magic either, but a different magic analog--and the closest linking to the Wheel of Time will be that in one of the books--not the first one; it was at first intended to be the first book--but in one of the books we will encounter a society that will be as close to the Seanchan Empire as it is possible to get without being the Seanchan Empire, except that it is even more rigidly stratified, both horizontally and vertically, than the Seanchan Empire, which if people actually look, they'll realize has a very porous stratification; it's a place where it's possible to move from the lowest level to the highest, short of becoming the Empress.

[shortkut]

Galgan was aiming for the throne in kod when RJ was still writing. Why give it up after Tuon is alive? Also did no one remember when I pointed out greandal mentioning she was working on something with the seanchan? Compulsion could work as well. Besides, I was not looking at the quote in a vacuum or at all; I was dismissing it because of evidence in the book. Galgan at the end of kod and suroth's pov from earlier in the thread. Many of these points have been argued from both sides fairly well, but no one wants to admit that another theory could be correct or even have a chance of being true. They use BWB as canon until it is used against them (referring to other threads) then claim it is not a valid source since it is unofficial.

 

For a site that is strict with their code of conduct, members have little to no issue telling new members that their opinions are wrong based on other opinions and they turn threads about theories into arguments based on speculation and their own opinions while ignoring or twisting evidence they don't agree with

 

Sorry for the run-on sentences

[Suttree]

Galgan was aiming for the throne in kod when RJ was still writing. Why give it up after Tuon is alive?

 

Aiming for the throne when the entire royal family is thought dead and gone is far different than reaching above with an Empress in place which is simply not done outside the royal family.

 

Also curious short, what evidence are you referring to from the book? All I have seen in this thread is a number of people providing evidence for why it isn't done. Was there some posted on the other side that I am missing? Could you refer me to the post #? Thanks!

[yoniy0]

shortkut, you've already asked about this, and I (with some support) already answered that it's the way his actions are perceived as normal by both high and low that is conflicting with what we know of the society. So no, we didn't ignore your point; in fact, I think you are ignoring ours.

 

Let me repeat, however, that the BWB shouldn't be taken as canon in a vacuum, or when conflicting with other evidence, but with supporting evidence it's fairly certain. For reasons explained above, I don't accept Galgan's actions when Tuon was presumed dead (although only speculated on by Suroth), nor if he'd kept at it afterwards, and surly not Suroth's PoV, as conflicting with my position here.

And again, if anyone can find a quote of RJ's that I've missed, whatever it says, I'd very much appreciate it.

[shortkut]

My point is this:

 

Suroth's pov is not evidence either way. I believe it was theodril and I, amongst others who saw it one way and you saw it another. There is nothing to break the tie there. I found it ambiguous at best for your side while you thought it was definitive. Let's call it a wash and drop it in terms of evidence.

 

We are left with turak (dinosaur hunter) on your side and galgan at the end of kod for the other side.

 

For both, the evidence comes from a second party who has no reason to lie to themselves. We also have conflicting RJ quotes on the mobility of people.

 

In all walks of life there are ambitious people and people who are loyal. Turak is loyal and Galgan is ambitious. He saw an opportunity when Tuon was missing and cannot unsee it.

 

All we are left with is BS writing that Galgan is trying to have Tuon assassinated.

 

The only unbelievable part of the chapter relating to the assassination attempts are the two fans who were inserted in to the book. I find what Galgan is doing more in line with seanchanness than the blade master. I also find it easily believable that RJ would have one sentence in the notes that Galgan was to be emperor

[yoniy0]

1. If one side thinks that a piece of evidence is definitive, and another maintains it might've been misunderstood or that the context invalidates it, then that isn't a wash. A wash would be if you could actually make a case for that evidence to support your argument.
   
2. In like manner, RJ's statements are conflicting as to the presence of social mobility, not the manner in which it is achieved (which is what we're actually debating here), and in any case they explicitly don't apply to usurping the throne.
   
3. In presence of evidence (even if that evidence wouldn't suffice on its own), the BWB cannot be so easily discarded.
   
4. And, again, there's a wide breadth between what Galgan would do due to Tuon's absence (even if she returns, you certainly can't present a case for his trying for the throne unless she's been taken away; as things are, you only have Suroth's beliefs to suggest he tried at all, and her perspective was colored by what Semirhage had her do) and what is considered the norm in Seanchan (as reflected in Tuon's expectations and the attitude of the masses).
   

You've addressed none of that, but I certainly am willing to call it quits. I think it's fairly clear at that point that neither of us is going to accept the other's position, and I for one am only repeating myself lately.

[Suttree]

And, again, there's a wide breadth between what Galgan would do due to Tuon's absence (even if she returns, you certainly can't present a case for his trying for the throne unless she's been taken away; as things are, you only have Suroth's beliefs to suggest he tried at all, and her perspective was colored by what Semirhage had her do) and what is considered the norm in Seanchan (as reflected in Tuon's expectations and the attitude of the

 

 

This is the key for the "evidence". One can not use Galgan's actions(or what Suroth thought his actions might be) when he thought the entire royal family was dead. That would be a power vacuum situation and utterly different from the normal reality.

[The Fisher King]

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!

 

:-)

 

 

Fish

[putts]

Quick Analysis ...

 

1. Didn't like how Mat seemed to have positive reflections of his time with Tylin. She basically made him her sex slave to the point that he had to plan his escape. He may feel guilt toward her and some general fondness of someone you were that "close" to ... but that is about as far as I would think it goes.

 

2. His general positive nature. Mat always found ways to see the black cloud to the silver lining. Yes, he's a man of "luck" but he's also a man who's been stricken with the evil of SL, hanged alive, basically tricked into marriage (even if he now has feelings for her) and had an eyeball ripped out of his head. He doesn't just stroll through town happy-and-go-lucky with only nice, pleasant thoughts in his head for all these people from his past.

 

3. I did like his reminiscing of Ebou Dar, the city itself. Since early on in the books, Mat has enjoyed his time in taverns and the different cities around Randland. They have become almost as much a part of him as Edmond's Field.

 

4. The fact that there's a Seanchan blademaster working as bouncer is believable (imo) because of the general weirdness of the times. We've heard over and over of strange things happening or people falling deeply in love, etc. Such an event could happen between a barkeeper and a blademaster. Jame has a keen eye and a general distrust for armed men - signs of someone who knows what he is about when it comes to a fight. Even if it's a weird place for a blademaster to be, he carries himself as a blademaster and we can strike up his new station in life to the Rand/DO effect ... or to the author giving props to his crew. Either or, I'm fine with it.

 

5. I did find it strange that he didn't even get a raised eyebrow for the use of the word "Tuon" in public like that.

 

6. I would have liked to see Mat at least grumble a bit at the end about women getting him in trouble all the time before just storming off to save the day. Maybe his new found love for Tuon has conquered his bitterness ... seems too much in too short a time ... but it is book 14 and unless we want to wait for book 16 then I suppose we must just agree to allow some of the "character building" to be cut in order to speed things along.

 

 

In general, I liked the feel of it. Can't wait for the release :)

[Maleshub]

I agree that the last book will cut considerable "fat" and be rather fast-paced and event blunt. I'll take it like that. But the problem with chapter 11 excerpt is that the "filler" or "fat" material in it just feels "off." For the first time in WoT, I read about an innkeeper who bullied her patrons into eating.

[shortkut]

1. If one side thinks that a piece of evidence is definitive, and another maintains it might've been misunderstood or that the context invalidates it, then that isn't a wash. A wash would be if you could actually make a case for that evidence to support your argument.
   
2. In like manner, RJ's statements are conflicting as to the presence of social mobility, not the manner in which it is achieved (which is what we're actually debating here), and in any case they explicitly don't apply to usurping the throne.
   
3. In presence of evidence (even if that evidence wouldn't suffice on its own), the BWB cannot be so easily discarded.
   
4. And, again, there's a wide breadth between what Galgan would do due to Tuon's absence (even if she returns, you certainly can't present a case for his trying for the throne unless she's been taken away; as things are, you only have Suroth's beliefs to suggest he tried at all, and her perspective was colored by what Semirhage had her do) and what is considered the norm in Seanchan (as reflected in Tuon's expectations and the attitude of the masses).
   

You've addressed none of that, but I certainly am willing to call it quits. I think it's fairly clear at that point that neither of us is going to accept the other's position, and I for one am only repeating myself lately.

1. Your evidence is no stronger, and I brought up how contextual clues can point to a different conclusion than you came up with. Other members pointed out other instances where suroth was thinking more of her life than other issues

2. He was not talking about social mobility through murder and subterfuge, but through normal means like being raised to the blood. Usurping the throne, by definition is not through the normal means. To quote terez, distinctions matter

3. Rj's conflicting quotes also disprove the bwb. What other proof is needed?

4. Tuon expects to be murdered. Suroth, a seanchan excepts Galgan to try it, is weak evidence. Fain, an outsider does not expect turak to try, so he is a trust worthy source

[TootThatHorn]

Are you sure you wrote number 4 right?

[shortkut]

Are you sure you wrote number 4 right?

i meant it as sarcasm expressed via sentence fragments. Fain's guess at what turak was thinking is being given more credibility than suroth's views on galgan