Chapter 11

[Sid]

I agree with what you said, Neophyte except for the word 'slightly'. I fear I'm just going to have to accept this paint-by-numbers version of the end of the Wheel of Time or go mad. Sadly, I get the feeling that if RJ could read what came of his epic after he passed he would have made a different decision at the end.

[Luckers]

Just quickly, because it may have got lost in the flurry of editing I did, but yes Neophyte we know this is the first Mat POV in the book--Linda from the 13th Depo stated that this was revealed at the reading on her blog.

 

In addition, guys, a Q&A was put up on Tor. Here: http://www.tor.com/b...agoncon-preview

 

In particular, there was this....

 

“Aviendha and Tuon are the ones I worked the hardest on, but I expected them to be hard. I wasn't expecting Mat to be hard. That blindsided me.” Brandon explained that in general the Andoran characters are the easiest for him to write as, “They feel like friends from high school.” So it surprised Brandon when he sat down to write Mat and discovered that he didn't have an immediate grasp on him. Brandon eventually realized it was because, unlike the other characters, “Mat is an untrustworthy narrator. He doesn't always believe what he says and he doesn't even always believe the thoughts in his own head. He's a character I've struggled to write but I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get.” (The positive reaction to the Mat chapter he read certainly put weight to this statement.)

 

I get the distinct impression that someone has led Brandon to believe that he's perfected Mat--the whole fact that this was the sample chosen, thus exposing it to the specific detailed critique in a vacuum that results from early samples, all strikes me as an attempt to show off the new Mat and say 'see, I can get him'.

[Sid]

I can't think even he believes that. Unless he truly sees Mat's previous escapades through some kind of strange funhouse-mirror type window. It might be they chose that chapter simply because of the person on the dais with him, or that none of the other chapters would work properly by themselves.

[nwash_10]

80 POVs in a single chapter! Did I really read that right?

 

What's below is from BS's Q and A at Dragoncon...

 

"The discussion of multiple viewpoints prompted one audience member to ask about the growing amount of secondary viewpoints in the series itself, most notably in the prologues. Brandon pointed that Jordan himself began that trend in the prologues; “Embers Falling on Dry Grass” being among Sanderson's favorite uses of that device, and revealed that readers should expect even more in the final volume.

 

How many more?

 

Upwards of 80. In a single chapter. That's around 70,000 words and which takes place near the end of A Memory of Light. (We're very curious to see if that chapter is titled “Tarmon Gai'don.”)"

[Luckers]

I can't think even he believes that. Unless he truly sees Mat's previous escapades through some kind of strange funhouse-mirror type window. It might be they chose that chapter simply because of the person on the dais with him, or that none of the other chapters would work properly by themselves.

 

Yeah, Barm pointed that out, and that Mat may be the only character whose plot is not inextricably wound up in larger storylines at Merrilor or Caemlyn--the Prologue might have fit, but they are likely holding most of that back for the sale.

 

I still get a wierd feel that this was to 'show us' the new Mat. Though, that itself may illuminate that it was a mistake--I meant any pre-release material will be subject to greater scrutiney, because, well, the fans have nothing better to do. Whether he got Mat right or not, exposing the most heavily critiqued character to that may not have been wise...

 

 

 

A few other wierd bits...

 

No, a good tavern was worn and used, like good boots. It was also sturdy, again like good boots. So long as the ale did not taste like good boots, you would have a winner. The best places for information were over in the Rahad, but his clothing was too nice to visit, and he did not want to run into whatever the Seanchan were doing there.

 

What obsession does Brandon think Mat has with boots? Between this and TofM it's becoming evident that Mat has a veritable footware fetish.

 

The Borderlanders were baffling, and so were the Aiel—that went without saying. The Cairhienin and their strange games, the Tairens and their ridiculous hierarchies, the Seanchan and their...Seanchan-ness.

 

Ugh. Wasn't saidared enough?

 

 

80 POVs in a single chapter! Did I really read that right?

 

You did. I was wondering how the heart of Tarmon Gai'don might be handled without dedicating whole books to it. This may well be a clever choice by Brandon.

[TyphoonBlade]

Just quickly, because it may have got lost in the flurry of editing I did, but yes Neophyte we know this is the first Mat POV in the book--Linda from the 13th Depo stated that this was revealed at the reading on her blog.

 

In addition, guys, a Q&A was put up on Tor. Here: http://www.tor.com/b...agoncon-preview

 

In particular, there was this....

 

“Aviendha and Tuon are the ones I worked the hardest on, but I expected them to be hard. I wasn't expecting Mat to be hard. That blindsided me.” Brandon explained that in general the Andoran characters are the easiest for him to write as, “They feel like friends from high school.” So it surprised Brandon when he sat down to write Mat and discovered that he didn't have an immediate grasp on him. Brandon eventually realized it was because, unlike the other characters, “Mat is an untrustworthy narrator. He doesn't always believe what he says and he doesn't even always believe the thoughts in his own head. He's a character I've struggled to write but I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get.” (The positive reaction to the Mat chapter he read certainly put weight to this statement.)

 

I get the distinct impression that someone has led Brandon to believe that he's perfected Mat--the whole fact that this was the sample chosen, thus exposing it to the specific detailed critique in a vacuum that results from early samples, all strikes me as an attempt to show off the new Mat and say 'see, I can get him'.

 

I just read the Q&A link and idk I have a very hard time believing that RJ wrote the majority of Mat in TGS and TOM. Especially since the majority of his scenes seemed off and to much of his change in character points to BS.

 

BTW lol sorry for pointing out Mat's third person thing I don't know how often it was done before TOM (maybe RJ was more subtle with it) but once I noticed Mat was doing it consistently in TOM I started to realize how cringe worthy it was.

 

 

[Luckers]

I just read the Q&A link and idk I have a very hard time believing that RJ wrote the majority of Mat in TGS and TOM. Especially since the majority of his scenes seemed off and to much of his change in character points to BS.

 

BTW lol sorry for pointing out Mat's third person thing I don't know how often it was done before TOM (maybe RJ was more subtle with it) but once I noticed Mat was doing it consistently in TOM I started to realize how cringe worthy it was.

 

That quote is wrong--or rather, the writer missed a distinction. Brandon's spoken about this many times before. What he was saying was that RJ wrote alot of Egwene in tGS, whilst Brandon wrote a lot of Rand, and then, that RJ wrote a lot of Mat in TofM, and Brandon a lot of Perrin.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Just quickly, because it may have got lost in the flurry of editing I did, but yes Neophyte we know this is the first Mat POV in the book--Linda from the 13th Depo stated that this was revealed at the reading on her blog.

 

In addition, guys, a Q&A was put up on Tor. Here: http://www.tor.com/b...agoncon-preview

 

In particular, there was this....

 

“Aviendha and Tuon are the ones I worked the hardest on, but I expected them to be hard. I wasn't expecting Mat to be hard. That blindsided me.” Brandon explained that in general the Andoran characters are the easiest for him to write as, “They feel like friends from high school.” So it surprised Brandon when he sat down to write Mat and discovered that he didn't have an immediate grasp on him. Brandon eventually realized it was because, unlike the other characters, “Mat is an untrustworthy narrator. He doesn't always believe what he says and he doesn't even always believe the thoughts in his own head. He's a character I've struggled to write but I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get.” (The positive reaction to the Mat chapter he read certainly put weight to this statement.)

 

I get the distinct impression that someone has led Brandon to believe that he's perfected Mat--the whole fact that this was the sample chosen, thus exposing it to the specific detailed critique in a vacuum that results from early samples, all strikes me as an attempt to show off the new Mat and say 'see, I can get him'.

Not at all. Brandon just said "I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get" and means exactly that, nothing more.

 

He picked this section to read for a similar reason he picked the Mat chapter for 2010's Great Hunt: He likes Mat, and knows Mat is a fan favorite and people like reading Mat scenes.

[Luckers]

Just quickly, because it may have got lost in the flurry of editing I did, but yes Neophyte we know this is the first Mat POV in the book--Linda from the 13th Depo stated that this was revealed at the reading on her blog.

 

In addition, guys, a Q&A was put up on Tor. Here: http://www.tor.com/b...agoncon-preview

 

In particular, there was this....

 

“Aviendha and Tuon are the ones I worked the hardest on, but I expected them to be hard. I wasn't expecting Mat to be hard. That blindsided me.” Brandon explained that in general the Andoran characters are the easiest for him to write as, “They feel like friends from high school.” So it surprised Brandon when he sat down to write Mat and discovered that he didn't have an immediate grasp on him. Brandon eventually realized it was because, unlike the other characters, “Mat is an untrustworthy narrator. He doesn't always believe what he says and he doesn't even always believe the thoughts in his own head. He's a character I've struggled to write but I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get.” (The positive reaction to the Mat chapter he read certainly put weight to this statement.)

 

I get the distinct impression that someone has led Brandon to believe that he's perfected Mat--the whole fact that this was the sample chosen, thus exposing it to the specific detailed critique in a vacuum that results from early samples, all strikes me as an attempt to show off the new Mat and say 'see, I can get him'.

Not at all. Brandon just said "I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get" and means exactly that, nothing more.

 

He picked this section to read for a similar reason he picked the Mat chapter for 2010's Great Hunt: He likes Mat, and knows Mat is a fan favorite and people like reading Mat scenes.

 

Lol, you mean I was reading into things that weren't there. NEVER!

 

Heh. Fair enough and thanks for letting us know.

[TyphoonBlade]

I just read the Q&A link and idk I have a very hard time believing that RJ wrote the majority of Mat in TGS and TOM. Especially since the majority of his scenes seemed off and to much of his change in character points to BS.

 

BTW lol sorry for pointing out Mat's third person thing I don't know how often it was done before TOM (maybe RJ was more subtle with it) but once I noticed Mat was doing it consistently in TOM I started to realize how cringe worthy it was.

 

That quote is wrong--or rather, the writer missed a distinction. Brandon's spoken about this many times before. What he was saying was that RJ wrote alot of Egwene in tGS, whilst Brandon wrote a lot of Rand, and then, that RJ wrote a lot of Mat in TofM, and Brandon a lot of Perrin.

 

Oh okay thanks for the clarification:)

[TheAngryDruid]

I've not been a fan of Mat in the last few books. Whether BS wrote it or RJ. They over the top hyperbole to be the Jester. The silly handwriting in the letter to Elayne that he didn't possess earlier. And I'm a bit worried about AMOL because of this chapter reading. Most on here do blame Brandon, but RJ, I believe, wrote a lot of it.

 

First, I find it odd that Mat would get all upset that someone is trying to kill Tuon. Especially since it seems that they aren't trying to succeed. He knows that Tuon and the Seanchan try to bump each other off. She's told him about it. So for him to suddenly say, "I"m off to get Galgan, to heck with my disguise" because someone tells him someone is trying (none too hard) to kill Tuon is kind of silly.

 

Second, this bit about the colors not swirling, him riding Pips and not thinking of Merrilor or Caemlyn or the Band was kind of disappointing. One the one hand, it is just an excerpt, so I'm sure BS didn't want to give too much away about those plot lines. I worry that we may have more continuity issues. I guess we'll find out.

 

Third, more about boots. Barf.

 

Still, it is difficult for me to conceive of a scenario where Mat rides to Ebou Dar without going to Merrilor or Caemlyn or Tar Valon first. He can't get there w/out Traveling, riding would take too long, and he has Pips.

 

It is also difficult for me to imagine a scenario where Mat, with access to channelers via Rand, Egwene, Perrin, or Rand, with Caemlyn under siege and the Band in battle, is sent, alone, to Ebou Dar. I'd think those situations must be resolved first. If not, the Light had decided to use it's best general as a messenger. If what Mat is doing is so important at this late stage, why go by himself? And if it is not important, why does he go?

[Suttree]

I've not been a fan of Mat in the last few books. Whether BS wrote it or RJ. They over the top hyperbole to be the Jester. The silly handwriting in the letter to Elayne that he didn't possess earlier. And I'm a bit worried about AMOL because of this chapter reading. Most on here do blame Brandon, but RJ, I believe, wrote a lot of it.

 

The only significant Mat portion by RJ in the books was the Tower of Ghenji sequence. Aside from that however we know Brandon handled the majority of the character.

[TootThatHorn]

Deep breath....I told myself right before I opened The Gathering Storm "It's not gonna be the way you would expect, but it's RJ's legacy and you've been waiting 20 years to finish it. The details might be off but the story is there, and just enjoy it."

 

Patience is a virtue.

[Terez]

Jame? Wrong series, I thought. Wouldn't Seg work better?

 

Jaim.

 

Lots of clearly deliberate references to the very things about Mat that long-time fans hated in TGS, things that Brandon later acknowledged were very real misinterpretations of Mat. There were a few of those in TOM too, but this seems more blatant. Why?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Still, it is difficult for me to conceive of a scenario where Mat rides to Ebou Dar without going to Merrilor or Caemlyn or Tar Valon first. He can't get there w/out Traveling, riding would take too long, and he has Pips.

 

It is also difficult for me to imagine a scenario where Mat, with access to channelers via Rand, Egwene, Perrin, or Rand, with Caemlyn under siege and the Band in battle, is sent, alone, to Ebou Dar. I'd think those situations must be resolved first. If not, the Light had decided to use it's best general as a messenger. If what Mat is doing is so important at this late stage, why go by himself? And if it is not important, why does he go?

 

Mat may have gone to Merrilor first he just may not have gotten a POV there. As for Caemlyn, according to the preview it may very well be that Caemlyn has already fallen completely in the prologue because it speaks of Caemlyn in trolloc hands as a fact and not as if it was in doubt.

 

The timeline may be something like this:

 

After the prologue things start of with Merrilor, Mat gets there through the gateway Grady promised to open for him at noon each day, Rand gets through most of his demands and it is decided that the assembled armies go to the north to save Lan.

Somewhere in the middle of this refugees from Caemlyn arrive. The Band, the surviving loyal Asha'man and Aes Sedai and whatever civilians they could evacuate. Everyone else is dead or worse and for all purposes after this Caemlyn will be wiped off the map. The dreamspike is stopping all travelling around Caemlyn so it can't be reached by the armies quickly and the army of trollocs in the north is so large that the forces of the light couldn't afford to split anyways.

Another force has to be found to deal with the trollocs occupying Caemlyn and the surroundings before they spread and wipe out another city and Mat volunteers or is volunteered to get the Seanchan to be that force.

 

Well, something like that.

[Terez]

We know Mat went to Merrilor because Mat was originally supposed to end up at Merrilor with everyone else at the end of TOM; they ended up moving some things to the beginning of AMOL. As for Caemlyn, there are essentially two possibilities: 1) the city has already fallen and is given up for lost, or 2) the dreamspike has been extended to cover the city and Mat can't get there without effort and Rand thinks it's more important for him to go to Ebou Dar because he has to go to Shayol Ghul, like, right now. (For some unknown yet relatively unsurprising reason.)

[Luckers]

There may well be a reasonable division of labour in that. Mat can't reach Caemlyn, ends up at Merrilor, revealing he can't reach Caemlyn. Perrin then explains why, so Rand assigns Caemlyn to him and Elayne. Mat, meanwhile he gives the other major pressing problem, the Seanchan, whilst he goes north.

 

A task for each of them.

[yoniy0]

Or, you know, they went to Caemlyn, Rand ended up dead, and now Everyone just goes to look for their loved ones for the reminder of the time they think they have

Puts a whole new angle on what Mat thinks Rand should've done....

 

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

 

EDIT:

In addition, guys, a Q&A was put up on Tor. Here: http://www.tor.com/b...agoncon-preview

Who wrote that thing, anyways? I can't imagine anyone was surprised by

Perhaps the biggest admission, and one that brought a hush over the crowd, was the reveal that Jordan wrote the chapter in The Gathering Storm where Verin reveals she is Black Ajah to Egwene and the sequence in Towers of Midnight where Moiraine is rescued by Mat. Two of the most important elements in these final books came directly from Jordan's hand.

[Luckers]

Or, you know, they went to Caemlyn, Rand ended up dead, and now Everyone just goes to look for their loved ones for the reminder of the time they think they have

Puts a whole new angle on what Mat thinks Rand should've done....

 

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

 

I don't either. *sigh*

[b3arz3rg3r]

Or, you know, they went to Caemlyn, Rand ended up dead, and now Everyone just goes to look for their loved ones for the reminder of the time they think they have

Puts a whole new angle on what Mat thinks Rand should've done....

 

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

 

The Crystal Throne, that's how. It's a ter'angreal that inspires reverence and wonder for the one who's sitting on it and Turak was high enough in the list of succession that he probably spend quite some time at court. Enough time for him to fall completely under its sway and really come to believe the Seanchan indoctrination at heart.

 

There may well be a reasonable division of labour in that. Mat can't reach Caemlyn, ends up at Merrilor, revealing he can't reach Caemlyn. Perrin then explains why, so Rand assigns Caemlyn to him and Elayne. Mat, meanwhile he gives the other major pressing problem, the Seanchan, whilst he goes north.

 

A task for each of them.

 

Rand already knows about the dreamspike at the Black Tower, Perrin doesn't need to tell him. Also I think you forget Min's Viewing of Perrin needing to be there twice or Rand would fail. So by necessity Rand should be keeping Perrin close at this point.

[Luckers]

Rand already knows about the dreamspike at the Black Tower, Perrin doesn't need to tell him. Also I think you forget Min's Viewing of Perrin needing to be there twice or Rand would fail. So by necessity Rand should be keeping Perrin close at this point.

 

Actually the viewing was that something bad would happen--like, you know, maybe Rand's death?

 

And how does Rand know about the dreamspike? Like as in, the specifics of it? There are other ways to block travelling, and Rand hasn't seen the Black Tower in TAR, so....

[Terez]

Rand already knows about the dreamspike at the Black Tower, Perrin doesn't need to tell him. Also I think you forget Min's Viewing of Perrin needing to be there twice or Rand would fail. So by necessity Rand should be keeping Perrin close at this point.

 

Actually the viewing was that something bad would happen--like, you know, maybe Rand's death?

 

I always figured that Rand's death would come as the red herring fulfillment of that viewing, while the real second time is when Slayer is trying to kill Rand after his death in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And how does Rand know about the dreamspike? Like as in, the specifics of it? There are other ways to block travelling, and Rand hasn't seen the Black Tower in TAR, so....

 

He doesn't, necessarily. He just knows that the blocked gateways are a sign that the Forsaken are involved at the Black Tower.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Rand already knows about the dreamspike at the Black Tower, Perrin doesn't need to tell him. Also I think you forget Min's Viewing of Perrin needing to be there twice or Rand would fail. So by necessity Rand should be keeping Perrin close at this point.

 

Actually the viewing was that something bad would happen--like, you know, maybe Rand's death?

 

Hmm true.

 

And how does Rand know about the dreamspike? Like as in, the specifics of it? There are other ways to block travelling, and Rand hasn't seen the Black Tower in TAR, so....

 

What ways are there to block travelling other than a dreamspike?

Rand knows that travelling isn't possible to the Black Tower and he has heard enough warnings to assume that it's infested by Asha'man turned to the DO. So why shouldn't he come to the conclusion that the Shadow has used a dreamspike to prevent anyone from interfering there? It's the most obvious one afterall.

[yoniy0]

The Crystal Throne, that's how. It's a ter'angreal that inspires reverence and wonder for the one who's sitting on it and Turak was high enough in the list of succession that he probably spend quite some time at court. Enough time for him to fall completely under its sway and really come to believe the Seanchan indoctrination at heart.

That's not it. Examine Suroth's aversion to assassinating Tuon (who never sat the Crystal Throne) when first confronted with the idea. Yes, she got over it, but to first think of it felt like sacrilege (and she's a DF). This attitude simply cannot live in a place where people ever consider such things.

[Terez]

What ways are there to block travelling other than a dreamspike?

 

We don't know, but RJ said there were 'ways', plural.