Chapter 11

[Neophyte]

It's not known whether the Seanchan know anything at all about the Ways. They've been gone from Randland for over a thousand years, and even in Randland that knowledge is not that far spread. An invention like the Ways was not necessary on their end of the World, as the Ogier never developed the Longing. None of the major cities outside of Tar Valon and the Borderlands even realize they still have a Waygate within and if they do, they no longer remember what it is for. They probably know even less (if that's possible) of the Portal Stones and we know the Shadow can use those as well.

 

The Ways were well established before Artur Hawkwing - indeed, the peak of their use should have been about that time, since the corruption in the Ways didn't even start until the War of the Hundred Years, which was after Luthair and his expedition left for Seanchan. So, the folks who conquered Seanchan should have known all about the Ways - and would have known them as being uncorrupted.

 

Frankly, this struck me as a little odd. The educated folks among the Seanchan should have had information about the Ways, and should have been surprised to see them unusable/corrupted. I guess the knowledge could have disappeared over 1000 years or so - the common people of Seanchan would have no reason to know about them, certainly - but the High Blood and others with access to education should have retained some kind of knowledge about them. They were a feature of Randland for almost 2000 years; you'd think there'd be at least a hint about them. And you'd think that Hawkwing's followers might have at least brough it up with the Ogier in Seanchan.

[thisguy]

It's not known whether the Seanchan know anything at all about the Ways. They've been gone from Randland for over a thousand years, and even in Randland that knowledge is not that far spread. An invention like the Ways was not necessary on their end of the World, as the Ogier never developed the Longing. None of the major cities outside of Tar Valon and the Borderlands even realize they still have a Waygate within and if they do, they no longer remember what it is for. They probably know even less (if that's possible) of the Portal Stones and we know the Shadow can use those as well.

 

The Ways were well established before Artur Hawkwing - indeed, the peak of their use should have been about that time, since the corruption in the Ways didn't even start until the War of the Hundred Years, which was after Luthair and his expedition left for Seanchan. So, the folks who conquered Seanchan should have known all about the Ways - and would have known them as being uncorrupted.

 

Frankly, this struck me as a little odd. The educated folks among the Seanchan should have had information about the Ways, and should have been surprised to see them unusable/corrupted. I guess the knowledge could have disappeared over 1000 years or so - the common people of Seanchan would have no reason to know about them, certainly - but the High Blood and others with access to education should have retained some kind of knowledge about them. They were a feature of Randland for almost 2000 years; you'd think there'd be at least a hint about them. And you'd think that Hawkwing's followers might have at least brough it up with the Ogier in Seanchan.

That the people forget doesn't surprise me, that the Ogier do (or don't mention the ways - that we know of, at least) is surprising. Moiraine or Verin (i forget which one) actually mentions that since ogier live longer, knowledge is lost more slowly with them.

[Mulk]

Honestly, the peak usage of the Ways was probably far earlier in the Age. Recall, a number of the cities the Ogier built were ruined in some form or fashion during the Trolloc Wars, and many others were destroyed in the intervening years. The only current cities we are aware of that have accessible Waygates are Caemlyn, Tar Valon, Cairhien, Illian, Tear and perhaps Ebou Dar - those cities are all over two thousand years old to the best of my knowledge. Fal Dara is the only other one mentioned with one close and it's some distance away, in the ruins of the ancient city of Mafal Dadaranell. The other cities the Ogier mention as having Waygates are all so long dead that no one outside of the Brown Ajah and a few other Aes Sedai even remember that there was a city by that name. The majority of the Waygates that do not end at dead cities end at stedding, and people do not live in stedding.

 

The other thing to recall is that traveling the Ways just about requires an Ogier. The Ogier of Randland have long been reclusive at best, to the point that a lot of people think they are myths. We have no idea how much use if any Hawkwing put the Ways to, at least not to my knowledge. And if he didn't make use of them, it's perfectly normal to think the Seanchan have absolutely no clue what they are. Even if they DID know about them, it I highly believe that it would have fallen by the wayside as time went on.

[thisguy]

Think about it, if the Seanchen Ogier are unaware of the taint on the Ways, they could have suggested to the Emperess - or a general - to use them to spread their troops throught RandLand more quickly.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Think about it, if the Seanchen Ogier are unaware of the taint on the Ways, they could have suggested to the Emperess - or a general - to use them to spread their troops throught RandLand more quickly.

Why would the Seanchan Ogier know about the Ways? The Ways do not extend outside of the Westlands.

[Mulk]

I did think about it. To the best of our knowledge, and given what RJ said about the Ogier over in Seanchan, there is no dialogue between Seanchan Ogier and Randland Ogier and hasn't been since the Breaking. I don't know if that means there were multiple continents at the time or not as I've never seen a map of the AoL. If there were multiple continents, then it's entirely likely that the Seanchan Ogier never knew of the Ways, and so there was no knowledge to be lost.

 

I agree, it would be surprising if the Ogier in Seanchan had forgotten about the Ways. It would not be at all surprising (to me anyway) if they never knew about them. Maybe you feel differently, but I think that the armies Hawkwing sent across the ocean almost certainly contained no Ogier.

[thisguy]

Think about it, if the Seanchen Ogier are unaware of the taint on the Ways, they could have suggested to the Emperess - or a general - to use them to spread their troops throught RandLand more quickly.

Why would the Seanchan Ogier know about the Ways? The Ways do not extend outside of the Westlands.

Are the Seanchan Ogier from Randland? Did they go over with Luthair's armies or were they all recruited in Seandar?

[thisguy]

I did think about it. To the best of our knowledge, and given what RJ said about the Ogier over in Seanchan, there is no dialogue between Seanchan Ogier and Randland Ogier and hasn't been since the Breaking. I don't know if that means there were multiple continents at the time or not as I've never seen a map of the AoL. If there were multiple continents, then it's entirely likely that the Seanchan Ogier never knew of the Ways, and so there was no knowledge to be lost.

 

I agree, it would be surprising if the Ogier in Seanchan had forgotten about the Ways. It would not be at all surprising (to me anyway) if they never knew about them. Maybe you feel differently, but I think that the armies Hawkwing sent across the ocean almost certainly contained no Ogier.

AH! I assumed that they did. That changes everything.

[Sid]

Random thought: Mat notices that there are no Sea Folk ships in the harbor. Does this mean the Seanchan are using them as a fleet to invade somewhere? I don't recall anything mentioning them in the Seanchan PoV's, either. Where did they go?

[Suttree]

Random thought: Mat notices that there are no Sea Folk ships in the harbor. Does this mean the Seanchan are using them as a fleet to invade somewhere? I don't recall anything mentioning them in the Seanchan PoV's, either. Where did they go?

 

Didn't they all escape/get destroyed in the battle surrounding Mat springing the WFs?

[Mulk]

We know that the Sea Folk had a mass break out and escape due in part to Mat's freeing of a Sea Folk damane when he escaped Ebou Dar with Tuon and others in tow. We know that the Sea Folk escaped with what rakers they could, and took the large Seanchan greatships where they could not. We don't know how many Sea Folk vessels that left.

 

So, in answer to your question, most of those ships may have been destroyed in the Sea Folk escape, or the Seanchan may have sent a fleet off with those toward Illian or Tear or around toward Arad Doman, or they could have been put to use to aid in trading. We just don't know.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Random thought: Mat notices that there are no Sea Folk ships in the harbor. Does this mean the Seanchan are using them as a fleet to invade somewhere? I don't recall anything mentioning them in the Seanchan PoV's, either. Where did they go?

 

Didn't they all escape/get destroyed in the battle surrounding Mat springing the WFs?

 

Yes, they did. Those that didn't escape were destroyed by the Sea Folk who wanted to deny the Seanchan their use.

[Sid]

Ah yes, the scenes where they were rebuilding the ships were in WH, from Mat's PoV, which obviously occurred before the Sea Folk escape. That's what I get for throwing out random thoughts

 

There's so little to talk about in this chapter.

[Valley of Death]

What do you guys think have happened previously to this chapter?

I think its safe to assume the meeting with the monarchs of the world have already taken place

Which means Rand and Moraine have had their reunion, which I cannot wait for. This probably means Aviendha came back to warn Rand about her visions

I thinks its also safe to say that Mat has not made his trip to the WT to get the horn because he would have mentioned it in his POV (I am actually surprised that there has not been more talk of the horn in Egwenes POVs in the ToM)

Which means that Mat needs to get to the White Tower soon before the Last Battle can happen right? Or maybe Mat will come with the horn to save Caemlyn or to turn the tide in Blight.

 

Also what stuck out to me was how many Tinkers in the Seanchan Lands. I understand they want shelter, but they must know the LB is about to happen. And wouldn't it make sense for them to find the "song" near the Blight or where the LB is. They don't fight but they can help in the other aspects of the LB. As Perrin pointed out the Tinkers are not cowardly, but right now at Chapter 11 they are acting cowardly.

Also why is mat in Ebou Dar, if he needs information on the Seanchan why not go to one of their territories where Tuon and half the city know who he is?

[b3arz3rg3r]

I'd say the odds are fifty fifty that Egwene took the Horn with her to Merrilor. She is aaware that Mat is the only one who can use it. Since this is only an excerpt, Mat may have it tucked away somewhere and made mention of it at a different point of the chapter. She knows that Mat has to blow it and it's apparently central in the Seanchan prophecies. But even if he doesn't have it yet, that still doesn't mean that Mat has to get to the Tower to get it. Unless he goes there at the head of a Seanchan army, that is.

 

As for the Tinkers, there is no Song. It's just a myth they made up.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I did think about it. To the best of our knowledge, and given what RJ said about the Ogier over in Seanchan, there is no dialogue between Seanchan Ogier and Randland Ogier and hasn't been since the Breaking. I don't know if that means there were multiple continents at the time or not as I've never seen a map of the AoL. If there were multiple continents, then it's entirely likely that the Seanchan Ogier never knew of the Ways, and so there was no knowledge to be lost.

 

I agree, it would be surprising if the Ogier in Seanchan had forgotten about the Ways. It would not be at all surprising (to me anyway) if they never knew about them. Maybe you feel differently, but I think that the armies Hawkwing sent across the ocean almost certainly contained no Ogier.

AH! I assumed that they did. That changes everything.

I doubt Luthair could convince any Ogier to travel to a new continent. Westland Ogier suffer from the longing. An RJ quote tells us that Seanchan Ogier did not suffer from the longing, because they were able to find the Stedding fairly quickly during/after the breaking. We also know that the Talisman of Growing (or whatever it is called) is required to grow new Ways. This is in the Westlands (with no record of it disappearing across the seas).

[thisguy]

I did think about it. To the best of our knowledge, and given what RJ said about the Ogier over in Seanchan, there is no dialogue between Seanchan Ogier and Randland Ogier and hasn't been since the Breaking. I don't know if that means there were multiple continents at the time or not as I've never seen a map of the AoL. If there were multiple continents, then it's entirely likely that the Seanchan Ogier never knew of the Ways, and so there was no knowledge to be lost.

 

I agree, it would be surprising if the Ogier in Seanchan had forgotten about the Ways. It would not be at all surprising (to me anyway) if they never knew about them. Maybe you feel differently, but I think that the armies Hawkwing sent across the ocean almost certainly contained no Ogier.

AH! I assumed that they did. That changes everything.

I doubt Luthair could convince any Ogier to travel to a new continent. Westland Ogier suffer from the longing. An RJ quote tells us that Seanchan Ogier did not suffer from the longing, because they were able to find the Stedding fairly quickly during/after the breaking. We also know that the Talisman of Growing (or whatever it is called) is required to grow new Ways. This is in the Westlands (with no record of it disappearing across the seas).

Didn't know any of that about the Seanchan Ogier. Thanks. It's almost annoying how much we have to rely on things that RJ said that were not included in the books.

[Neophyte]

Yes, I was not thinking that the Seanchan Ogier would know of the Ways before the arrival of Luthair's armies, because the Ways never went to Seanchan. But it does surprise me that apparently no one thought to mention them once they got there.

 

Luthair: "Hey, you guys are Ogier, right? We've got Ogier where we came from too!"

 

Random Ogier: "Is that so, hasty people from across the Ocean?"

 

Luthair: "Yes, and they have these cool things called the Ways that help people get places faster. Say, you guys don't have anything like that here do you?"

 

Random Ogier: "Get places faster? Doesn't sound very Ogier to me ... our legs were always good enough. Why I remember ..."

 

Luthair: "Um, never mind. Want to be my really dangerous guards?"

 

Random Ogier: "Sure."

[Vardar]

Yes, I was not thinking that the Seanchan Ogier would know of the Ways before the arrival of Luthair's armies, because the Ways never went to Seanchan. But it does surprise me that apparently no one thought to mention them once they got there.

 

Luthair: "Hey, you guys are Ogier, right? We've got Ogier where we came from too!"

 

Random Ogier: "Is that so, hasty people from across the Ocean?"

 

Luthair: "Yes, and they have these cool things called the Ways that help people get places faster. Say, you guys don't have anything like that here do you?"

 

Random Ogier: "Get places faster? Doesn't sound very Ogier to me ... our legs were always good enough. Why I remember ..."

 

Luthair: "Um, never mind. Want to be my really dangerous guards?"

 

Random Ogier: "Sure."

 

HA! Epic.

 

I wonder why Ogier on this side of the ocean went all hippy peaceful?

[yoniy0]

I wonder why Ogier on this side of the ocean went all hippy peaceful?

They're peaceful by nature, I think, except when threatened. As Loial put it, when it's the Shadow that's to be fought, "their axes have always grown long handles."

In a tranquil environment, they can probably be persuaded to help preserve order, but the way Randland has been since the Breaking, they probably just had enough of humans.

[Bobaganoosh_30]

I enjoyed chapter 11. I enjoyed the bit about Tylin. Don't be a prude.

[TootThatHorn]

I'd say the odds are fifty fifty that Egwene took the Horn with her to Merrilor. She is aaware that Mat is the only one who can use it. Since this is only an excerpt, Mat may have it tucked away somewhere and made mention of it at a different point of the chapter. She knows that Mat has to blow it and it's apparently central in the Seanchan prophecies. But even if he doesn't have it yet, that still doesn't mean that Mat has to get to the Tower to get it. Unless he goes there at the head of a Seanchan army, that is.

 

As for the Tinkers, there is no Song. It's just a myth they made up.

 

Thank you. I've never felt there was a song either, I always thought it was a voice, which is a talent. Swear they mention that, "Have you the Voice?" or some such.

[TootThatHorn]

I wonder why Ogier on this side of the ocean went all hippy peaceful?

They're peaceful by nature, I think, except when threatened. As Loial put it, when it's the Shadow that's to be fought, "their axes have always grown long handles."

In a tranquil environment, they can probably be persuaded to help preserve order, but the way Randland has been since the Breaking, they probably just had enough of humans.

 

Is there mention that the Midnight Towers in Seanchan are made of SG rock as well? Seems I want to remember that, perhaps they are built near where the Ogier live and has corrupted them. Seems a possibility if I'm not wrong about the other stuff.

[yoniy0]

I enjoyed chapter 11. I enjoyed the bit about Tylin. Don't be a prude.

Hey Damer, glad to hear it. What were your favorite parts about it?

BTW how are you holding up waiting for AMoL?

 

EDIT:

Is there mention that the Midnight Towers in Seanchan are made of SG rock as well? Seems I want to remember that

No, you're thinking of the Black Tower.

[thisguy]

I'd say the odds are fifty fifty that Egwene took the Horn with her to Merrilor. She is aaware that Mat is the only one who can use it. Since this is only an excerpt, Mat may have it tucked away somewhere and made mention of it at a different point of the chapter. She knows that Mat has to blow it and it's apparently central in the Seanchan prophecies. But even if he doesn't have it yet, that still doesn't mean that Mat has to get to the Tower to get it. Unless he goes there at the head of a Seanchan army, that is.

 

As for the Tinkers, there is no Song. It's just a myth they made up.

 

Thank you. I've never felt there was a song either, I always thought it was a voice, which is a talent. Swear they mention that, "Have you the Voice?" or some such.

Why doesn't someone just ask the ogier about this? They're supposed to have long memories. The Aiel, and then the Aiel-Tinkers, are looking for the song while the world is still breaking, aren't they? They run into ogier in Rand's walk through the Rhuidean terangreal. You'd think the ogier could have told them - "It's not a song, it's the voice, silly." Or, "It starts in C minor, and here are the words."