The White Tower And Oaths of Fealty

[Agitel]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

 

I think you've hit on to something that hasn't been discussed in the thread. The oaths of fealty sworn by the old oaths are most likely obselete since the first thing the BA purge did was free an AS of all previous oaths. So the situation stands today that there is no one bound to Egwene by an oath of fealty. She corrected that mistake.

 

Nice catch!

 

Everyone's still just as bound by their oaths of fealty as they were before, considering that none of those oaths of fealty were bounded by the oath rod in the first place. That's not to say the oaths of fealty were the right or moral thing to do, but we've been over this. The only effective constraint put on the Aes Sedai who made the oath are their own moral compasses. It had nothing to do with Binding.

[Knivy]

Youre correct here, but her thoughts tend to lead me to believe her more simple minded. Id actually prefer the one who is after power since there would be a rational progression in their thoughts.

You think Egwene is simple-minded? Ooookayyy...

As a matter of fact, I do.

She is smart enough in a personal sense and is excellent bullying/blackmail, which makes her dangerous, but she is too easily convinced to be trusted to not see something shiny and get distracted from her previous path, so long term plans, say goodbye. She has gotten lucky so far and every time she does this it ends up well, but i wouldnt trust that luck to hold out forever.

Name one instance where interest in something new has interfered with her ability to plan ahead.

]

Not plan ahead, but follow through with that plan.

I wasnt trying to explain her motivation, just her patterns of action.

Except that is somewhat pointless. When you know both motivation and action, but ignore the motivation and just look at the actions, you can hardly expect to come to right conclusions.

Patters of action are actually a much better judge than motivations, and a greater predictor of future action. Even if the character tries to deceive themselves or convince themselves that they arent doing it for this reason or that reason, but there is an underlying reason, that is most likely unattractive to even the character them self. Which is why they bury and hide it. We only know what the characters think, and unlike Nynaeve, who gets obviously irrational in her thoughts when in situations like this, Egwene is able to rationalize everything and convince herself of it.

 

If we judged on motivation, I could say I killed that man because he was threatening that woman down the street, while i actually did it because i covet his wife. It doesnt have to be a conscious thought for it to be the actual motivation. I wouldnt have killed another man in the same situation, but because of his wife, i did.

[sleepinghour]

Patters of action are actually a much better judge than motivations, and a greater predictor of future action. Even if the character tries to deceive themselves or convince themselves that they arent doing it for this reason or that reason, but there is an underlying reason, that is most likely unattractive to even the character them self. Which is why they bury and hide it. We only know what the characters think, and unlike Nynaeve, who gets obviously irrational in her thoughts when in situations like this, Egwene is able to rationalize everything and convince herself of it.

 

An example of this can be found in TGH where Moiraine confronts Lan about having helped Rand in Fal Dara. Lan says he was pulled along by Rand's ta'veren powers, while Moiraine thinks he was unconsciously influenced by Nynaeve's loyalties. I think it was probably the latter, as well as Lan seeing much of himself in Rand and feeling sorry for him. Also, as seen in NS, he's always had a low opinion of Aes Sedai, and I don't think that went away entirely even after he became a Warder. That much was clear in TEotW already when Lan talked about Elyas. But the other motivations would be harder for Lan to admit to, even to himself.

 

Point being, all characters are flawed and sometimes delude themselves, so their motivations aren't always as simple and pure as they proclaim or believe them to be. Egwene doesn't want anyone or anything to control her, which is an entirely understandable reaction to her captivity, but that has also led to her becoming too controlling of others and every situation she's in. Her relationship with Gawyn is not one of equals, and although Egwene may point at her being the Amyrlin and he a Warder, I don't think that's the real or only reason. I don't believe she will ever release her sworn Aes Sedai, not because she's power-hungry in the traditional sense but because it'd mean giving up some of her control of her surroundings. She wants control, not power.

 

That need to be in control shapes every scene she's in, but particularly the meeting with Rand. When Rand arrives, she asks him if he's come to "surrender himself to the White Tower's guidance" (i.e., Egwene's guidance) and loses her temper not when he announces that he's going to break the seals, but when he speaks of "his terms" and turns his back on her, which takes away her control of her situation. Like Egwene, I can't tell if Rand mocks her for that or not.

 

"Your terms?" Egwene demanded.

"You will see," he said, turning as if to leave.

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!" [...]

He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not.

[BFG]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

 

I think you've hit on to something that hasn't been discussed in the thread. The oaths of fealty sworn by the old oaths are most likely obselete since the first thing the BA purge did was free an AS of all previous oaths. So the situation stands today that there is no one bound to Egwene by an oath of fealty. She corrected that mistake.

 

Nice catch!

 

Everyone's still just as bound by their oaths of fealty as they were before, considering that none of those oaths of fealty were bounded by the oath rod in the first place. That's not to say the oaths of fealty were the right or moral thing to do, but we've been over this. The only effective constraint put on the Aes Sedai who made the oath are their own moral compasses. It had nothing to do with Binding.

 

Thinking baout it yesterday, I think you might be right, the oath rod would release the ferrets but not the ones that swore to Egwene. Unless there's something in the wording used in the release. Presumably they didn't ask to be released from lying, etc, as that wouldn't effect BA. Surely they must have said something along the lines of 'release me from all oaths' and then resworn? I don't know if this would include oaths made not on the rod or not?

[Agitel]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

 

I think you've hit on to something that hasn't been discussed in the thread. The oaths of fealty sworn by the old oaths are most likely obselete since the first thing the BA purge did was free an AS of all previous oaths. So the situation stands today that there is no one bound to Egwene by an oath of fealty. She corrected that mistake.

 

Nice catch!

 

Everyone's still just as bound by their oaths of fealty as they were before, considering that none of those oaths of fealty were bounded by the oath rod in the first place. That's not to say the oaths of fealty were the right or moral thing to do, but we've been over this. The only effective constraint put on the Aes Sedai who made the oath are their own moral compasses. It had nothing to do with Binding.

 

Thinking baout it yesterday, I think you might be right, the oath rod would release the ferrets but not the ones that swore to Egwene. Unless there's something in the wording used in the release. Presumably they didn't ask to be released from lying, etc, as that wouldn't effect BA. Surely they must have said something along the lines of 'release me from all oaths' and then resworn? I don't know if this would include oaths made not on the rod or not?

 

When they were released of their oaths on the oath rod they were released of ALL of their oaths on the oath rod. The oaths of fealty to Egwene were not Binding oaths (capital letter 'b'). They never were. The day after they made them they could have broken those oaths if they felt like it. An hour after. Ten seconds after. The only influence the Three Oaths had on those oaths of fealty was that those Aes Sedai could only speak those oaths if they meant it at that moment.

[SuperFade]

Patters of action are actually a much better judge than motivations, and a greater predictor of future action. Even if the character tries to deceive themselves or convince themselves that they arent doing it for this reason or that reason, but there is an underlying reason, that is most likely unattractive to even the character them self. Which is why they bury and hide it. We only know what the characters think, and unlike Nynaeve, who gets obviously irrational in her thoughts when in situations like this, Egwene is able to rationalize everything and convince herself of it.

 

An example of this can be found in TGH where Moiraine confronts Lan about having helped Rand in Fal Dara. Lan says he was pulled along by Rand's ta'veren powers, while Moiraine thinks he was unconsciously influenced by Nynaeve's loyalties. I think it was probably the latter, as well as Lan seeing much of himself in Rand and feeling sorry for him. Also, as seen in NS, he's always had a low opinion of Aes Sedai, and I don't think that went away entirely even after he became a Warder. That much was clear in TEotW already when Lan talked about Elyas. But the other motivations would be harder for Lan to admit to, even to himself.

 

Point being, all characters are flawed and sometimes delude themselves, so their motivations aren't always as simple and pure as they proclaim or believe them to be. Egwene doesn't want anyone or anything to control her, which is an entirely understandable reaction to her captivity, but that has also led to her becoming too controlling of others and every situation she's in. Her relationship with Gawyn is not one of equals, and although Egwene may point at her being the Amyrlin and he a Warder, I don't think that's the real or only reason. I don't believe she will ever release her sworn Aes Sedai, not because she's power-hungry in the traditional sense but because it'd mean giving up some of her control of her surroundings. She wants control, not power.

 

That need to be in control shapes every scene she's in, but particularly the meeting with Rand. When Rand arrives, she asks him if he's come to "surrender himself to the White Tower's guidance" (i.e., Egwene's guidance) and loses her temper not when he announces that he's going to break the seals, but when he speaks of "his terms" and turns his back on her, which takes away her control of her situation. Like Egwene, I can't tell if Rand mocks her for that or not.

 

"Your terms?" Egwene demanded.

"You will see," he said, turning as if to leave.

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!" [...]

He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not.

 

This is a very good post. I've seen far too many arguments on this forum where someone will post a quote of a character saying something or thinking something and simply take it at face value in order to further their points. Characters in this series routinely delude themselves into believing things about themselves that aren't true - one need only look at Nynaeve for a walking example of such behavior.

[yoniy0]

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

The day after they made them they could have broken those oaths if they felt like it. An hour after. Ten seconds after. The only influence the Three Oaths had on those oaths of fealty was that those Aes Sedai could only speak those oaths if they meant it at that moment.

Ahm, they swore those oaths by their hopes of rebirth and salvation. I very much doubt an oath so given could be shaken off so easily. You'd have to convince yourself that the oath had a reason for not applying anymore (and, indeed, that's exactly what Beonin did; what's more, having that line of reasoning dismantled seemingly forced her back into obedience).

[metalisticpain]

Surely due to the ousting of the BA, all oaths of fealty have been removed anyway?

 

I think you've hit on to something that hasn't been discussed in the thread. The oaths of fealty sworn by the old oaths are most likely obselete since the first thing the BA purge did was free an AS of all previous oaths. So the situation stands today that there is no one bound to Egwene by an oath of fealty. She corrected that mistake.

 

Nice catch!

 

Everyone's still just as bound by their oaths of fealty as they were before, considering that none of those oaths of fealty were bounded by the oath rod in the first place. That's not to say the oaths of fealty were the right or moral thing to do, but we've been over this. The only effective constraint put on the Aes Sedai who made the oath are their own moral compasses. It had nothing to do with Binding.

 

Thinking baout it yesterday, I think you might be right, the oath rod would release the ferrets but not the ones that swore to Egwene. Unless there's something in the wording used in the release. Presumably they didn't ask to be released from lying, etc, as that wouldn't effect BA. Surely they must have said something along the lines of 'release me from all oaths' and then resworn? I don't know if this would include oaths made not on the rod or not?

 

When they were released of their oaths on the oath rod they were released of ALL of their oaths on the oath rod. The oaths of fealty to Egwene were not Binding oaths (capital letter 'b'). They never were. The day after they made them they could have broken those oaths if they felt like it. An hour after. Ten seconds after. The only influence the Three Oaths had on those oaths of fealty was that those Aes Sedai could only speak those oaths if they meant it at that moment.

 

It could have if they convinced themselves it did. If they believe that unseating all oaths on the rod removed their oaths of fealty, then it does.

[thisguy]

Those oaths weren't binding oaths in a sense because they weren't sworn on the oath rod but since one of the oaths they swore as AS is to not lie, their oath to Egwene is binding by default. That is, aside from those who hadn't sworn on the Rod already and those who were DFs.

[Suttree]

Those oaths weren't binding oaths in a sense because they weren't sworn on the oath rod but since one of the oaths they swore as AS is to not lie, their oath to Egwene is binding by default.

 

It has already been discussed how that can be worked around. In fact we have already seen one person do it in text. An oath of fealty not made on the oath rod isn't on the same level.

[thisguy]

Those oaths weren't binding oaths in a sense because they weren't sworn on the oath rod but since one of the oaths they swore as AS is to not lie, their oath to Egwene is binding by default.

 

It has already been discussed how that can be worked around. In fact we have already seen one person do it in text. An oath of fealty not made on the oath rod isn't on the same level.

I'm sure there are holes, just like there are holes in the oaths themselves. Saying you can call me "Insert Name" when it is not your name isn't exactly a lie but it skirts the truth.

Still, an oath of fealty made by someone who has sworn not to tell a lie has to be a stronger oath than an oath made on its own.

[Agitel]

Those oaths weren't binding oaths in a sense because they weren't sworn on the oath rod but since one of the oaths they swore as AS is to not lie, their oath to Egwene is binding by default.

 

It has already been discussed how that can be worked around. In fact we have already seen one person do it in text. An oath of fealty not made on the oath rod isn't on the same level.

I'm sure there are holes, just like there are holes in the oaths themselves. Saying you can call me "Insert Name" when it is not your name isn't exactly a lie but it skirts the truth.

Still, an oath of fealty made by someone who has sworn not to tell a lie has to be a stronger oath than an oath made on its own.

 

The only affect is that it guarantees the oathtaker intends to keep the oath at the time they made it. It doesn't do anything for after.

 

 

The day after they made them they could have broken those oaths if they felt like it. An hour after. Ten seconds after. The only influence the Three Oaths had on those oaths of fealty was that those Aes Sedai could only speak those oaths if they meant it at that moment.

Ahm, they swore those oaths by their hopes of rebirth and salvation. I very much doubt an oath so given could be shaken off so easily. You'd have to convince yourself that the oath had a reason for not applying anymore (and, indeed, that's exactly what Beonin did; what's more, having that line of reasoning dismantled seemingly forced her back into obedience).

 

I'm not arguing the ethics of the situation, I'm just talking about the influence of the Three Oaths on the oaths of fealty, which was basically nothing other than demonstrating that the Aes Sedai weren't swearing the oaths with the intent to be false at the time. The Three Oaths had no influence over whether or not the Aes Sedai would or could keep them. All that matters is whether they believed in the sanctity of those oaths.