Dark One: Thread in the Pattern or External Being?

[Alonin]

As I go through the series, I wonder how the Dark One can affect the world/pattern? My main conclusion is the the Dark One is apart of the pattern, just another thread, albeit a large one that is prevalent in at least two of the seven ages of the wheel.

 

Also, as an afterthought, would balefire do anything to the dark one? if he is a thread, he would burn out too, hypothetically. and even if he is external to the pattern, would balefire affect him?

[Suttree]

RJ has said the DO is outside of the pattern and that the amount of bale fire needed would destroy the world as well.

[Cybertrolloc]

I forget if there's anything to draw the other conclusion just from the books, don't think so. Author answers on those, which I think are not a thread and can't be balefired without nuking everything.

 

DO doesn't do much directly, his agents are part of the pattern.

[Zorlon]

I do not see how the DO can be considered as anything other than a part of the pattern.

 

As the OP said at least 2 of the ages of the Wheel are deeply intwined with the DO's actions.

 

Ok,maybe the DO isn't part of the pattern, but the pattern is surely still designed around the DO's involvement, no?

[Suttree]

I do not see how the DO can be considered as anything other than a part of the pattern.

 

Robert Jordan

 

 

The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither is affected by the Pattern.

[rand4747]

"The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither is affected by the Pattern."

 

It shows I think that the dark one can't even be harmed he can maybe be put back outside the pattern but theres nothing that can physically be done to him. People are part of the pattern therefore they can't affect him. Repairing the bore will stop him reaching in though.

[Zorlon]

Suttree, your Jordan quote just brings us back to:

 

Ok,maybe the DO isn't part of the pattern, but the pattern is surely still designed around the DO's involvement, no?

 

What else is the pattern but the weaving made by the threads of lives? And the threads of the 2nd and 3rd ages are deeply involved in dealing with the DO. Without the DO how does the 2nd age lead into the 3rd?

[TootThatHorn]

Suttree, your Jordan quote just brings us back to:

 

Ok,maybe the DO isn't part of the pattern, but the pattern is surely still designed around the DO's involvement, no?

 

What else is the pattern but the weaving made by the threads of lives? And the threads of the 2nd and 3rd ages are deeply involved in dealing with the DO. Without the DO how does the 2nd age lead into the 3rd?

 

There's the Creator and the Dark One. The Creator made the wheel. The wheel makes the pattern. The pattern would be made regardless of the DO existing. It isn't designed around the DO but is affected by him.

 

Although there are ages that are deeply affected by him, there are ages where he doesn't exist at all. If he were to cease to exist the pattern would still be weaved.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The DO is the ultimate anti-pattern.

 

The creator and DO exist together. The Creator created the Wheel and pattern. Being opposites, the DO seeks to destroy creation. The pattern is creation. The DO attempts to destroy the pattern completely, but can only reach in so far, since the shell of creation protects the pattern from the DO's touch(or the prison, if you want to see it that way).

 

The DO, because he has to act via humans to break through (lanfear etc.) the pattern reacts to the DO's orders to the shadow, who are still all a part of the Pattern. Similarly, the Pattern reacts to the external threat of the DO by using Ta'veren etc. to counter the threat.

 

What the Pattern cannot do is restrict the DO or predict the DO's actions. It can only react to what the DO has already done, and it makes it dangerously unpredictable, because the DO's influence is the only thing that an destroy the Pattern completely (since all internal threats can be predicted and fixed relatively easily).

 

We can see the effects of the DO on the Pattern. The TP basically destroys the Pattern, the essence of the DO. Shaidar Haran's presence (the shadowy form of the DO) literally blocks out the One Power (the driving force of the Pattern), not to mention the mere presence of the DO's influence disintegrates the Pattern via bubbles of evil and the destabilization we see happen.

[Master of the Anvil]

Ok, then I would wonder, if both the Creator and the DO are outside of the pattern then why/how can the dark one actually cause things to happen and the Creator can not? We see bubbles of evil, but no bubbles of good. We see the DO able to communicate with the forsaken, but the Creator does not communicate with the hero's or AS or anyone. And I know RJ said something along the lines of "the Creator will not intervene", but is this because he can not or will not? If he can not then there seems to be a huge difference in the Creator and the DO, but yet we still describe the two as "outside of the pattern". If he will not, then that fits that they are both outside of the pattern, but seems a little sad: This leaves us with the possibility that the creator is either 100% confident in the abilities of the people(threads) in the pattern that he created and knows that he has no need to intervene because they don't need help or that the creator just doesn't care if what he created is destoryed. Obviously the later of those two choices kinda sucks and if the former is true then there seems to be little point to the struggles occuring since the Creator intentionally made the (threads)pattern to be strong enough to defeat anything the DO could do.

 

Sorry for the long drawn out thought here, but it is something rather interesting to me. Summary: Are the DO and the creator equivalent(creator and destroyer)? If they are then why can/does the DO touch the pattern but not he creator?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Because the Creator does not interfere. Wether he can or not has not been established.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

Basically, my understanding is that being opposites, the Creator and the Dark One, the Creator only Creates, it is not a "good" God, but simply a force of Creation. So aside from the creation of the wheel and pattern, the creator has no other role.

 

The Dark One, however, being the destroyer, by nature strives to destroy all that the Creator has created.

 

Not that the creator doesn't care about creation, since that hasn't been established, just that the creator wont interfere because people have to do it themselves. It could be that the creator gets real sad when a Wheel is destroyed, we don't know. All we know is that the Creator does not interfere in events.

 

Edit: Here are some more quotes that may be useful.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

 

INTERVIEW: May 12th, 2010

JordanCon: Interview with Alan Romanczuk by Richard Fife (Verbatim

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

 

So the Wheel does not have a specific purpose. It does not have a motivation. It is not a conscious being. The Wheel is just there, operating as an organizing principle of the world. Jim played down the religious aspects of all this. There is a creator, but there is not even a notion that the creator is God. The creator, of course, is God, but it is the creator. And the creator is not given much of a personality in these books. The creator is a stand-back kind of entity, less so than the Dark One, which opposes thecreator and everything the creator has created, which is mankind.

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 17th, 1995

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

[Master of the Anvil]

Hmm. Interesting. So the creator is just a creator not a “Good One” for lack of a better term. I hadn’t considered that. That’s understandable I suppose.

 

So both the creator and the DO are outside of the pattern. The DO can and does touch the patter. We don’t know if the creator can(although it makes sense that could touch it since he created it), but we know that he simply does not. From your RJ quote we know the creator doesn’t touch the world because it would be to admit imperfection in his creation and therefore imperfection in him. Of course if the DO succeeds in destroying the world then that would also make the creator imperfect because it would mean his creation is imperfect. So ultimately the struggle that the pattern is fighting defines the creator. If they succeed then he remains perfect, if they fail then he has failed. That’s interesting. Further more, we can probably say that since the creator is defined by the success of this pattern then he probably hasn’t created any other pattern or at least an other pattern that has failed because that would have defined him as imperfect and then break the concept of him not touching the pattern because of his perfection.

 

Hats off to you if you could follow that. I’m definitely not the best writer and I tend to let my thoughts run a bit wild. Summary: Both are outside the pattern. Creator doesn’t touch the pattern. Creator only creates. No pattern(world) created has failed(possibly no other world created). Failure in this world(or any) would break the definition of the creator because it would equal imperfection in his creation and therefore imperfection in him.

 

Well that was fun :) :) Thank you very much for the quotes Barid!!!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Basically, although one thing I would add.

 

The fact that humans have messed things up themselves.

 

A pattern being destroyed does not mean that a creation was imperfect. By itself, the DO cannot destroy the Pattern. The Creator's original design was perfect. However, the humans (who have free will) decided, unwillingly or not, to break the Pattern, allowing the DO to touch the world.

 

So the Creator lets them sort it out themselves, because essentially they created the problem themselves by reaching out to the Dark One in the first place. The Creator and the DO being equal, neither is more powerful, thus it means that humans are the only ones that can tip the balance one way or another. The Creator who makes the rules, has apparently given people the free will to choose, thus the ability to make the wrong decision and allow the DO to destroy the Pattern. Since the rules allow this to happen (by choice, or because the DO is equal to the Creator) the Creator can shift the blame, since it wasn't imperfection, but an act of free will on the peoples behalf.

[Agitel]

The Dark One also can only touch the Pattern and influence because of the Bore that men created. There was no knowledge of him before the Bore.

[Zorlon]

There's the Creator and the Dark One. The Creator made the wheel. The wheel makes the pattern. The pattern would be made regardless of the DO existing. It isn't designed around the DO but is affected by him.

 

Although there are ages that are deeply affected by him, there are ages where he doesn't exist at all. If he were to cease to exist the pattern would still be weaved.

You're not actually explaining anything relevant to my point.

 

We know the second age ends in fire from a war against the DO, we know the third age is one of decline and ends in a battle against the DO.

 

That is the pattern of those ages, every second and third age. Whatever else changes about those ages from turn to turn we know the big picture stays the same.

 

Interview: Nov 30th' date=' 2000[/b']

 

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

 

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

 

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

The big picture of every age stays the same every time, and the DO is a core part of the picture in ages 2 and 3.

 

And here's the kicker, the DO only gets involved because people drill the bore. Threads are spun out which bring the DO into the story.

 

So, as I said,

 

Ok,maybe the DO isn't part of the pattern, but the pattern is surely still designed around the DO's involvement, no?

 

What else is the pattern but the weaving made by the threads of lives? And the threads of the 2nd and 3rd ages are deeply involved in dealing with the DO. Without the DO how does the 2nd age lead into the 3rd?

 

Obviously the DO isn't be part of the wheel, but the wheel certainly appears to have been built with his involvement in mind every bit as much as a punch card operated loom was built with the involvement of human operators in mind. The humans are not part of the loom, but are part of the system which keeps it running and spinning out the patterns intended.

 

Again, how to end the 2nd as it has always ended,or have the third at all without the DO?

[Master of the Anvil]

Basically, although one thing I would add.

 

The fact that humans have messed things up themselves.

 

A pattern being destroyed does not mean that a creation was imperfect. By itself, the DO cannot destroy the Pattern. The Creator's original design was perfect. However, the humans (who have free will) decided, unwillingly or not, to break the Pattern, allowing the DO to touch the world.

 

So the Creator lets them sort it out themselves, because essentially they created the problem themselves by reaching out to the Dark One in the first place. The Creator and the DO being equal, neither is more powerful, thus it means that humans are the only ones that can tip the balance one way or another. The Creator who makes the rules, has apparently given people the free will to choose, thus the ability to make the wrong decision and allow the DO to destroy the Pattern. Since the rules allow this to happen (by choice, or because the DO is equal to the Creator) the Creator can shift the blame, since it wasn't imperfection, but an act of free will on the peoples behalf.

 

I think this is debatable. I like you're point and I can definitely see what you're saying, but it falls back to what you consider perfection. If we work on the premise that the creator is perfect and created a perfect pattern then wouldn't it be designed to servive even when facing the DO? We know humans have free will, but we also know the pattern spits out people(threads) as corrections to things that have gone wrong. This must have been part of the creator's design and a mechanism to combat mistakes. By this reasoning, if the DO wins then the mechanism that the creator designed in the form of hero's and such as a way to combat evil then wouldn't that make the creator's design imperfect?

 

Again, I think this is debatable and I can see where the opposite side of the coin is that even though the patter spits out solutions, these solution are still in the form of people and with the freedom of choice those people can still not perform the "correction" that they were designed for. I guess Rand is the best example of this and he actually proves your point pretty well. He was spit out to save the world, but had the choice of not doing it.

 

I think you're actually right, so my first paragraph is really just the other side of the coin. I just wanted to present another possible reasoning, but you're right. As long as free will truly is "free" then it's not really gonna fall on the creator. Except for the fact that he gave free will to the people :P :P (sorry I can just keep on going when my brain start running)

 

Summary: You're right. Failure of the world does not make the creator imperfect :)

 

Zorlon/Alonin sorry for kinda getting off the point. More to what you're talking about Zorlon: Since the creator is perfect he is probably aware of the DO and therefore very likely designed the pattern to be able to combat the DO's actions, but the DO is not part of thte pattern. To what Alonin said, I would guess the DO and Creator can both touch the pattern, the creator just doesnt.

[TristanWebb]

I am partial to the idea that the DO isn't imprisioned, he is locked outside. The Bore lets him reach in and mess around and unmaking the whole universe is his goal, but it can't be done from the outside. It goes with the Creator making the universe and moving on to make others too, all universes would be destroyed by the DO seperately, some could even have no internal means for them to allow the DO in.

[Clouded]

Basically, although one thing I would add.

 

The fact that humans have messed things up themselves.

 

A pattern being destroyed does not mean that a creation was imperfect. By itself, the DO cannot destroy the Pattern. The Creator's original design was perfect. However, the humans (who have free will) decided, unwillingly or not, to break the Pattern, allowing the DO to touch the world.

 

So the Creator lets them sort it out themselves, because essentially they created the problem themselves by reaching out to the Dark One in the first place. The Creator and the DO being equal, neither is more powerful, thus it means that humans are the only ones that can tip the balance one way or another. The Creator who makes the rules, has apparently given people the free will to choose, thus the ability to make the wrong decision and allow the DO to destroy the Pattern. Since the rules allow this to happen (by choice, or because the DO is equal to the Creator) the Creator can shift the blame, since it wasn't imperfection, but an act of free will on the peoples behalf.

 

I think this is debatable. I like you're point and I can definitely see what you're saying, but it falls back to what you consider perfection. If we work on the premise that the creator is perfect and created a perfect pattern then wouldn't it be designed to servive even when facing the DO? We know humans have free will, but we also know the pattern spits out people(threads) as corrections to things that have gone wrong. This must have been part of the creator's design and a mechanism to combat mistakes. By this reasoning, if the DO wins then the mechanism that the creator designed in the form of hero's and such as a way to combat evil then wouldn't that make the creator's design imperfect?

 

Again, I think this is debatable and I can see where the opposite side of the coin is that even though the patter spits out solutions, these solution are still in the form of people and with the freedom of choice those people can still not perform the "correction" that they were designed for. I guess Rand is the best example of this and he actually proves your point pretty well. He was spit out to save the world, but had the choice of not doing it.

 

I think you're actually right, so my first paragraph is really just the other side of the coin. I just wanted to present another possible reasoning, but you're right. As long as free will truly is "free" then it's not really gonna fall on the creator. Except for the fact that he gave free will to the people :P :P (sorry I can just keep on going when my brain start running)

 

Summary: You're right. Failure of the world does not make the creator imperfect :)

 

Zorlon/Alonin sorry for kinda getting off the point. More to what you're talking about Zorlon: Since the creator is perfect he is probably aware of the DO and therefore very likely designed the pattern to be able to combat the DO's actions, but the DO is not part of thte pattern. To what Alonin said, I would guess the DO and Creator can both touch the pattern, the creator just doesnt.

 

I rationalize the Dark One breaking free differently. I accept the premise the Creator's creation is perfect. This implies a few things. First, having a perfect Creator implies that the Wheel and the Pattern are perfect. If the Wheel and Pattern are perfect, and they are tools used to keep the Dark One locked in, then we can say the Dark One has never, and will never be free. Now, you're asking, "What's the point of it all then? The Dark One cannot break free."

 

I say the Dark One can break free. As Verin says, "The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order." The only way for the Dark One to break free is to assume a paradox. Which, balefire is. It is why the Dark One asks Demandred to use it. Using it causes many paradoxes. Mat is both alive and a dead at the same point in time. Ramshalan is both compulsed and not compulsed. Those paradoxes are what the Wheel groans to remedy.

 

Now what does the Dark one breaking free imply? It implies an imperfection in the Pattern. That, in turn, implies imperfection in the Creator. Another paradox, true, but that is just another sign the the DO has won.

[Master of the Anvil]

Awesome breakdown Clouded. The paradox concept is pretty cool :)

 

This is where you kinda get into the question of "free will". The pattern is perfect so it should make people(threads) that will fix any problem. But if those people are "free" to actually choose what they do then maybe they don't do what the patterned intended. But since the pattern is perfect it might just always spin out the right people. Again it's a paradox(sorta). Because the patter is perfect so it should be able to spin out the solution, but does this imply that the pattern just knows who will fix the problem or is it possible that the pattern doesn't know for sure (because they have free will) and therefore the pattern wouldn't exactly be perfect.

[thisguy]

Awesome breakdown Clouded. The paradox concept is pretty cool :)

 

This is where you kinda get into the question of "free will". The pattern is perfect so it should make people(threads) that will fix any problem. But if those people are "free" to actually choose what they do then maybe they don't do what the patterned intended. But since the pattern is perfect it might just always spin out the right people. Again it's a paradox(sorta). Because the patter is perfect so it should be able to spin out the solution, but does this imply that the pattern just knows who will fix the problem or is it possible that the pattern doesn't know for sure (because they have free will) and therefore the pattern wouldn't exactly be perfect.

 

Well, what does 'free will' mean? Whether in the books or in real life, we only have so many choices. Even if you're a true sociopath and do not care how the actions you take will affect other people, you only have so many choices. So, at best, free will sometimes only comes down to choosing between paper or plastic. My point is, most of us wouldn't be able to affect the pattern very much by choosing between a, b or c.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, what needs to be taken into consideration is that "perfect" doesn't necessarily mean idestructable.

 

The Creator likely created the Pattern with full knowledge that humans could and would screw things up. Free will, to whatever extent, is factored in by the Creator. The Creator built the Pattern knowing that the DO could potentially break in and destroy it. I think "perfect" here means that the Creator didn't make any mistakes (in the Creator's opinion) The fact that humans could release the DO was intentional on the Creator's behalf. After all, there is no way the Creator can stop the DO completely, because the DO is equal. Thus, humans would always be able to sense the DO on the other side of the Pattern. It just happens that only with a certain level of technology the DO can be sensed (so when the bore is fully healed, and people don't have technology, they can't sense any trace of the DO, not because the DO disappeared.)

 

So the Creator literally can't do anything about humans possibly sensing the DO. So even though this can be seen as "imperfect" the Creator didn't make any mistakes, and it was created to perfection, as far as the Creator could do so.

 

@ BenevolentCow

 

It has been something I always believed. Firstly, as the Creator and DO are equal, the creator couldn't "imprison" the DO in any case. I believe the Wheel actually imprisons humanity and the Pattern, to safeguard it from the DO, who after all, exists outside of the Wheel and Pattern along with the Creator. The DO is an invading force, the DO, as stated by RJ, opposes everything the Creator does.

 

So they are like two kids at the beach. The Creator built a sandcastle, because he likes creating things like that. The DO, for whatever reason, hates sandcastles, and wants to destroy it. However, the Creator has protected his sandcastle (the pattern) so the DO can't destroy it. Unless the people living in the sandcastle open it from inside, letting the DO in through the secret side passage (the bore).

[Agitel]

I too have taken the interpretation that the Creator locked the Dark One out of his creation and didn't "imprison" him. The Wheel and the Pattern are protective mechanisms.

[thisguy]

I was under the impression that it's a prison that the DO was trapped in.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I was under the impression that it's a prison that the DO was trapped in.

That is what the characters say. They even have a catechism, but on balance of the factual evidence it does not make sense. Characters believing something that is untrue is one of the main themes RJ focused on.

[thisguy]

I was under the impression that it's a prison that the DO was trapped in.

That is what the characters say. They even have a catechism, but on balance of the factual evidence it does not make sense. Characters believing something that is untrue is one of the main themes RJ focused on.

 

Not trying to be a hard ass, just wondering, why don't you think it makes sense?

 

I actually had that thought too. recently. I'm pretty sure it was Sutt who provided me with an RJ quote saying the Creator and DO were equal and opposite.Once I saw that, I found it odd that the Creator could then imprison the DO. However, I sort of looked at the entire Wheel as the prison after that.