Sword Play

[he who comes with a bong]

So how badass do you think Rand will be now that he has all of LTT memories,when it comes to the sword forms and sword play. After it was stated in the prologe of the eye of the world that him and ishmael had started with swords for sport way back in the day. not sure if that is correct or not ,pretty sure it is.

 

Then as LTT being close to 500 years old before he offs himself, he had all the time in the world to hone his sword skills, so i am making the assumption that he was pretty good with a sword.

 

So do you all think that he wont need to relearn any type of sword play now having all of the memories of the past. I think he will be one sword swining mofo

[fuzz1717]

I believe it was LTT and Be'lal who started swordplay, but I might be wrong. Maybe its just cuz Be'lal was the only forsaken to fight Rand with a sword.

 

Well, he only has one hand, and he told someone that he would have to relearn the sword forms. I'm no fencer, but i'm assuming that one hand means you have to have a smaller sword. Either way, though, Rand can use the OP to blow up entire Trolloc armies (as seen in TOM, when he saves Maradon), so I think the most important sword to rand is Callandor.

[he who comes with a bong]

the whole one hand thing was before he had all of LTTs memories true he does have vast knowledge of usuing the one power now.... but he also has all of LTTs memories on sword forms so there might be one handed forms that he does not really need to relearn at all.

[A Rant Lord]

Rand has spend so many time practising swordplay along with him demanding that Taim brings back the sword practice at the BT. I think there is definitly going to be some swordplay in AMOL from him, there just has been way to many pages written about Rand and swordplay.

[Vardar]

I believe it was LTT and Be'lal who started swordplay, but I might be wrong. Maybe its just cuz Be'lal was the only forsaken to fight Rand with a sword.

 

Well, he only has one hand, and he told someone that he would have to relearn the sword forms. I'm no fencer, but i'm assuming that one hand means you have to have a smaller sword. Either way, though, Rand can use the OP to blow up entire Trolloc armies (as seen in TOM, when he saves Maradon), so I think the most important sword to rand is Callandor.

 

Doesn't have to be smaller. You just have to adjust your style.

 

But I'm with you, who wants to see Rand using Sword Play. I mean... It's like a waste.

[kght22]

after 3000 years of evolving sword forms i would bet that rand was better with the sword than ltt, and likely galad even more so. swordplay isn't a static target, it continues to evolve as long as people have to use swords, much as in our world it has devolved because we don't use swords much. ltt and one of the forsaken took swordplay from a sport, as it is in our world, and learned to use it in combat, but that would be a first generation of swordsmen, by the time you get someone like lan you would have allot more knowledge on how it works and as such much more skill.

[Vardar]

after 3000 years of evolving sword forms i would bet that rand was better with the sword than ltt, and likely galad even more so. swordplay isn't a static target, it continues to evolve as long as people have to use swords, much as in our world it has devolved because we don't use swords much. ltt and one of the forsaken took swordplay from a sport, as it is in our world, and learned to use it in combat, but that would be a first generation of swordsmen, by the time you get someone like lan you would have allot more knowledge on how it works and as such much more skill.

 

IDK, is it harder to perform swordplay in a dance, or to kill. It's harder to not kill in combat right? It could be argued that they'd have been better since they performed the forms and managed not to kill each other. (If they're using real blades). But I see what you're saying. But LTT has how many hundreds of years doing it? I doubt Rand's 2 years would mean he was better. (Let's be real, Galad, Rand, Gawyn are all unreasonable good with their weapons, LTT's countless years would make him better)

[Neophyte]

after 3000 years of evolving sword forms i would bet that rand was better with the sword than ltt, and likely galad even more so. swordplay isn't a static target, it continues to evolve as long as people have to use swords, much as in our world it has devolved because we don't use swords much. ltt and one of the forsaken took swordplay from a sport, as it is in our world, and learned to use it in combat, but that would be a first generation of swordsmen, by the time you get someone like lan you would have allot more knowledge on how it works and as such much more skill.

 

IDK, is it harder to perform swordplay in a dance, or to kill. It's harder to not kill in combat right? It could be argued that they'd have been better since they performed the forms and managed not to kill each other. (If they're using real blades). But I see what you're saying. But LTT has how many hundreds of years doing it? I doubt Rand's 2 years would mean he was better. (Let's be real, Galad, Rand, Gawyn are all unreasonable good with their weapons, LTT's countless years would make him better)

 

It's only "harder to not kill" when the other person is trying to kill you. If neither party is actually trying to kill the other, then it's easier for both.

 

That said, Lews Therin was dealing with opponents who wanted to kill him for well over a decade, so ... by the end of the War of the Shadow, you could make the argument that Lews Therin would be better than Rand was before he lost his hand.

 

I don't foresee a great deal of swordplay in Rand's future. Losing a hand, when you've learned and practiced two handed forms, with a sword designed for two handed use, is a serious handicap. Bashere was right - for personal defense, Rand has much better options available. I've always sort of wondered why the AoL folks even bothered to revive swordplay as a tool of war ... except maybe toward the end of the war as resources and technology became scarce. But by that time Lews Therin and Be'lal would have definitely been on opposite sides.

 

That reminiscence in Tear, as Be'lal is fighting Rand, always struck me as very unlikely scenario. It may be one of the few times that Jordan just let the moment run away with him a bit - I doubt that swordplay was a significant factor in the War of Shadow. Much better weapons were available, both to the principals, and to society at large.

[BNICK1026]

Not to mention. Things like that are muscle memory and physical traits. Rand may remember LTT thoughts of sword fighting, but LTT skills would be near useless since Rands muscle memory could be completely different from LTTs. Thus making his previous knowledge moot. I think of all the sword things Rand has learned, his most important lesson was from Lan about Sheathing the Sword.

 

 

*edit* Also, I think taking up the sword was more of a survival tactic until Rand 'Developed'. I kind of felt it was his wilder block of sorts. He started most of his early fights as sword conflicts and channeled during the fight.

[clu7ch]

I don't care, I'm hands down ITCHING for Rand to use Callandor as a oversized razor and hack somebody important up. ITCHING. Itching i tells ya.

[Zorlon]

That said, Lews Therin was dealing with opponents who wanted to kill him for well over a decade, so ... by the end of the War of the Shadow, you could make the argument that Lews Therin would be better than Rand was before he lost his hand.

This argument supposes that

1: Most of the fighting in the War of Power was with swords.That clearly wasn't the case until the very end.

2: The top general had nothing better to do than mix it up in melees. That is an absurd assertion.

 

And, most egregiously of all,

 

3: You are asserting that doing something yourself for ten years would make you as good at it as someone who has had the benefit of extensive training in an art which has been refined over a long history.

 

That's not how things work.

 

Painting, gymnastics, natural bodybuilding, mathematics, sculpture, architecture, every field of human endevour has grown more advanced by experience adding to the art's body of knowledge, and the practitioners have grown more capable for being steeped in the accumulated wisdom.

 

Lews Therin might have been a very good fencer, but I doubt he he would be anything like a blademaster. Before things went to shit his life obviously didn't revolve around fencing, after things went to shit he had more important things to do than play with swords. And the fencing in the AoL which LTT would have known well would be no match for the sword forms of modern Randland.

[clu7ch]

Zorlon, you have a fine set of counterpoints there, but I like to look at it this way.

While comparing the third age to our modern times is ignorant - an important parallel is made. In our world, practically all of the art of Western Swordsmanship has been lost. Movies and such make it look more like a modern day exhibitionist martial art, all about flourishes and pretty moves, where in reality, it was a bloody, base, primal art of killing your opponent. ARMA scholars and historians have gone about recreating medieval martial arts, but it's a slow moving train, in and of itself.

 

We are met with a great deal of confusion as to the swords in the books, however, and via the sword forms and actual construction of the weapons, we learn that they are more of a japanese make than a western blade, so we could assume that they follow a more eastern approach to swordsmanship, rather than a fencing approach.

 

You have to remember that RJ was an avid sword nut, as well as being well versed in history, so it's entirely possible that he created the swords and forms to be a unique device, they're still based in historical influence.

 

So I tend to think of it as cyclical. Think of Lews Therin as a scholar, 100 years from now in our time, taking our sport of fencing/medieval martial arts, that it is currently, as a exhibition, and turning it back to the main implement in combat. Provided - aes sedai wouldn't need great skill, but the average foot soldier would, to remain relevant on the battlefield. I would then surmise that the Age-of-Legends swordsmanship was superior to 3rd age swordsmanship, as Medieval swordsmanship is superior to modern swordplay. Now, I'm not saying that completely, as the 3rd age'rs still have need for swords/spears/etc in their everyday life, because they haven't rediscovered shocklances and the sort, but remember that almost all information from the age of legends was lost, therefor, after the breaking, it's entirely feasible to postulate that swordsmanship was re-invented.

 

So at the very least, we can safely claim that swordsmanship was possibly a very different animal in Lews Therin's time, which would give Rand a definitive advantage, among anyone who wasn't a forsaken.

 

A counter to this point would be every time Rand engages a forsaken he recognizes apparent sword forms - but we have to remember that Rand, especially early rand, was remembering details from LTT's life without realizing it.

[Mulk]

One thing to keep in mind: Rand can't channel the OP while linked with two other women and one of them controlling the flows through Callandor. It may be that he will have to resort to the sword while Moiraine or Nynaeve are channeling their hearts out.

 

LTT was remembered as a general in addition to being a user of the One Power of unparalleled might. It may be that in trying to find a way for his men to be able to fight off Darkfriends and Trollocs and what not that he and Be'lal turned to trying to make sword play a martial art once more - after all, most people cannot channel, and they would need ways to defeat the Shadow that aren't channeling based. We don't know the specifics of how it came to pass - just that LTT and others were mastered of that art form and they learned how to kill with it again during the War of the Power.

[Zorlon]

Zorlon, you have a fine set of counterpoints there, but I like to look at it this way.

Don't blow smoke up ass. If you really thought I had a fine set of counterpoints you'd reply to them rather than give a longwinded reply which makes it clear you paid no mind to what I wrote.

 

So I tend to think of it as cyclical. Think of Lews Therin as a scholar, 100 years from now in our time, taking our sport of fencing/medieval martial arts, that it is currently, as a exhibition, and turning it back to the main implement in combat. Provided - aes sedai wouldn't need great skill, but the average foot soldier would, to remain relevant on the battlefield. I would then surmise that the Age-of-Legends swordsmanship was superior to 3rd age swordsmanship, as Medieval swordsmanship is superior to modern swordplay. Now, I'm not saying that completely, as the 3rd age'rs still have need for swords/spears/etc in their everyday life, because they haven't rediscovered shocklances and the sort, but remember that almost all information from the age of legends was lost, therefor, after the breaking, it's entirely feasible to postulate that swordsmanship was re-invented.

This makes no sense.

1: The AoL art of sword fighting, as opposed to harmless sport fencing, was newly developed while things were falling to shit.

2:Until the very end most of the fighting in the War of Power was not done by sword. Shocklances, armored vehicles, helicopter like gunships... that's what they were working with before their industrial base was destroyed. Soldiers neededto know how to work a shocklance, not a blade.

3: Randlanders have been refining their art for near 3000 years. An art which was in it's infancy during the AoL.

[clu7ch]

All of that is true, and I'm not blowing smoke up your ass sir, just simply speculating harmlessly, not combative.

 

As to your first point, it was newly developed, as things go. We know that sometime in LTT's lifetime, himself and Be'lal developed swordplay as a martial means. While this doesn't give him 3000 years to perfect it, desperation does breed a skill in and of itself.

 

Your second point is true, as I mentioned, at least in a round about way. The AoL soldiers did in fact have access to advanced technology. However, we don't have loads of PoV that demonstrates battles in the Age of Legends.

 

To your third point, I do admit that 3rd age swordsmen have had loads of time to dabble, improve, and whatnot. The key that I was trying to imply was that Rand, via Lews Therin's memories, may in fact have knowledge that others don't, about swordplay, which would give him a combat edge.

 

The main point for this post however, is to let you know that this is a forum for speculation, and agitated defense of ones' point isn't in the spirit of this forum, where us having fun while scratching our noggins is the key.

[Neophyte]

This argument supposes that

1: Most of the fighting in the War of Power was with swords.That clearly wasn't the case until the very end.

 

To respond:

 

1. Unless Be'lal was simply lying, then he and Lews Therin rediscovered/reinvented sword-fighting as a killing art together. That would mean that it became at least useful fairly early on in the conflict, as Duram Laddel Cham switched around the halfway point in the war. That means that he and Lews Therin were probably developing swordplay as a killing art within a year or two of the start of the war, unless they reinvented it in six months or so. Also, one assumes that it must have been pretty crucial for two of the Light's top generals to be working on it.

 

I admit that that makes no sense, but it is what is in the books. More on congnitive dissonance below ...

 

 

2: The top general had nothing better to do than mix it up in melees. That is an absurd assertion.

 

2. Except that that is exactly the assertion made by the characters in the books - unless Be'lal is lying, which I admitted I suspect, but can't find a reason for. That said, I ascribed it to possible authorial dramatic excess.

 

You didn't bother to quote my whole post - and apparently you didn't bother to read it either, since at the end I said this:

 

 

That reminiscence in Tear, as Be'lal is fighting Rand, always struck me as very unlikely scenario. It may be one of the few times that Jordan just let the moment run away with him a bit - I doubt that swordplay was a significant factor in the War of Shadow. Much better weapons were available, both to the principals, and to society at large.

 

And finally, you say:

 

 

3: You are asserting that doing something yourself for ten years would make you as good at it as someone who has had the benefit of extensive training in an art which has been refined over a long history.

 

That's not how things work.

 

Painting, gymnastics, natural bodybuilding, mathematics, sculpture, architecture, every field of human endevour has grown more advanced by experience adding to the art's body of knowledge, and the practitioners have grown more capable for being steeped in the accumulated wisdom.

 

Lews Therin might have been a very good fencer, but I doubt he he would be anything like a blademaster. Before things went to shit his life obviously didn't revolve around fencing, after things went to shit he had more important things to do than play with swords. And the fencing in the AoL which LTT would have known well would be no match for the sword forms of modern Randland.

 

3. Yet Be'lal, who apparently learned the art at exactly the same time as Lews Therin, was mopping the floor with Rand, who had already killed a modern blademaster in single combat, and was lauded by Lan as a remarkably good student. If Lews Therin could not have possibly learned to be a blademaster because the people in their time were not "steeped in the accumulated wisdom," then how did Be'lal get that good? He was sealed in the Bore when Lews Therin died, and woke up only a short time before Rand encountered him. I imagine he was too busy taking over in Tear for sword lessons at that point ...

 

What you've done here is expose the underlying contradictions in that whole sequence in Tear. Egregious perhaps, though I might not go that far, but not of my making. Most pertinently, I had already acknowledged them, which is why (to quote again for emphasis) I concluded my post with:

 

That reminiscence in Tear, as Be'lal is fighting Rand, always struck me as very unlikely scenario. It may be one of the few times that Jordan just let the moment run away with him a bit - I doubt that swordplay was a significant factor in the War of Shadow. Much better weapons were available, both to the principals, and to society at large.

 

Edited for spelling

[thisguy]

How long was the battle in the AoL. I get the feeling that it may have been as long as 100 years. If LTT was using the sword for battle all that time, I'm sure he was plenty good at using it.

 

Edit to add: Same with Bel'al

[Neophyte]

How long was the battle in the AoL. I get the feeling that it may have been as long as 100 years. If LTT was using the sword for battle all that time, I'm sure he was plenty good at using it.

The Collapse, which followed the creation of the Bore, was approximately 100 years long. That was not, however, an actual period of war - for most of that period the world didn't even know what had really happened when the Bore was made, or know about the Dark One. It was a period of slowly accelerating social decay and increasing chaos.

 

The War of the Shadow, in which the forces of the Dark One fought openly against the rest of the world, lasted approximately 10 years, ending with the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

[thisguy]

How long was the battle in the AoL. I get the feeling that it may have been as long as 100 years. If LTT was using the sword for battle all that time, I'm sure he was plenty good at using it.

The Collapse, which followed the creation of the Bore, was approximately 100 years long. That was not, however, an actual period of war - for most of that period the world didn't even know what had really happened when the Bore was made, or know about the Dark One. It was a period of slowly accelerating social decay and increasing chaos.

 

The War of the Shadow, in which the forces of the Dark One fought openly against the rest of the world, lasted approximately 10 years, ending with the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

Thank you. 10 years of actual battle with a sword is probably pretty good, too. Just because sword forms 'evolve' doesn't necessarily mean they get better. Bruce Lee actually talked about this sort of thing dealing with unarmed fighting styles.

[clu7ch]

this guy. he understands what i was saying. :D

[thisguy]

this guy. he understands what i was saying. :D

hey, I'm always there for you clu7ch. ;)

[clu7ch]

<3

[Neophyte]

For the record, I would have no problem with the idea of swordfighting being developed as a killing art during the Collapse. According to the Guide, a taste for bloodsport was developed during that period (see for example the source of the names Osan'gar and Aran'gar).

 

But again, unless Be'lal was lying - and I see no reason that he would be in that situation - then Lews Therin Telamon helped him rediscover swordfighting as a killing art. Enagaging in unnecessarily murderous bloodsport doesn't fit what we know of the character of Lews Therin Telamon - reinventing it even less so. That would mean that his work with Be'lal happened during the war, and there are a lot of reasons why that doesn't make sense either.

 

To me, the whole sequence smells like authorial dramatic excess. No writer is perfect.

[thisguy]

For the record, I would have no problem with the idea of swordfighting being developed as a killing art during the Collapse. According to the Guide, a taste for bloodsport was developed during that period (see for example the source of the names Osan'gar and Aran'gar).

 

But again, unless Be'lal was lying - and I see no reason that he would be in that situation - then Lews Therin Telamon helped him rediscover swordfighting as a killing art. Enagaging in unnecessarily murderous bloodsport doesn't fit what we know of the character of Lews Therin Telamon - reinventing it even less so. That would mean that his work with Be'lal happened during the war, and there are a lot of reasons why that doesn't make sense either.

 

To me, the whole sequence smells like authorial dramatic excess. No writer is perfect.

 

Absolutely true. However, isn't it possible that LTT was somewhat influence by the DO just as Rand has been?

[Neophyte]

For the record, I would have no problem with the idea of swordfighting being developed as a killing art during the Collapse. According to the Guide, a taste for bloodsport was developed during that period (see for example the source of the names Osan'gar and Aran'gar).

 

But again, unless Be'lal was lying - and I see no reason that he would be in that situation - then Lews Therin Telamon helped him rediscover swordfighting as a killing art. Enagaging in unnecessarily murderous bloodsport doesn't fit what we know of the character of Lews Therin Telamon - reinventing it even less so. That would mean that his work with Be'lal happened during the war, and there are a lot of reasons why that doesn't make sense either.

 

To me, the whole sequence smells like authorial dramatic excess. No writer is perfect.

 

Absolutely true. However, isn't it possible that LTT was somewhat influence by the DO just as Rand has been?

 

Maybe, although even insane Lews Therin seemed horrified by the idea of using the True Power. But even so, I'd say two things - one, even Rand at his worst never engaged in killing for sport, and two, being affected in the way that would lead him to engage in such actions doesn't square with either Rand's or the Forsaken's various recollections of Lews Therin, even during the War.

 

So, I don't find that very plausible either ...