question - weak damane and moiraine

[mike hunt's here]

From the orbit blurb - Approaching Ebou Dar, Mat Cauthon plans to visit his wife Tuon, now Fortuona, Empress of the Seanchan. Now my question would be - if he is still with Mo and Thom, would Suldam sense Mo, in her "weakened" state and still want to make her a damane?

 

Now as a damane - would her suldam be able to make her stronger in the one power? Egwene got stronger in certain things, but she was relatively new and full of potential. Mo is like a dried apricot with no juice...I dont think I would want to be holding her leash if she is worthless.

 

Maybe this is how Mat tells his wife to knock off the leashings...

[Maleshub]

The Seanchan leash channelers on principle. They would not hesitate before leashing Moiraine and putting her in the kennels. What task she might be assigned to is a different story. And I think that forkroot tea and damane can sense Moiraine's channeling ability. Remember Morgase in Malden, she became drowsy when she drank the forkrooted water. And before that, the Shaido Wise Ones and Galina sensed her weak channeling ability. And Moiraine is stronger than Morgase. The damane will have no problem discovering her ability.

[Tiberius]

I doubt she will go with Mat though. Just a hunch. She needs to be with Rand.

[Durinax]

since this is a seanchan thread, thought I would point out something interesting I found during a reread

 

Rand touches a adam and Avi says don't do that again, the power surged greatly in them when you did. I wonder if this may come into play

[Barid Bel Medar]

Theodril is right, the Seanchan can and will discover and leash anyone with any channeling ability. Someone who can use Saidar can tell if a woman can do so, no matter how weak they are.

 

It is easier to spot someone with greater strength, the more power used, the more detectable something is (like the Chodean Kal at the cleansing) however, if she came face to face with a damane, they would know. In Ebou Dar, there would be minimal chance of remaining undetected.

 

Which is why there is no way Moiraine would go to Ebou Dar, nor would Mat "allow" her. He knows what they can do more than any other, he wouldn't risk losing her again, not when he got his eye poked out for her. They will most likely go to Rand first, then Rand will send Mat to Ebou Dar.

 

@Durinax: That is because when a male channeler puts an a'dam on, both the male and female die horribly. Rand touching it was not enough to harm anyone, but dangerous enough that Aviendha sensed what would happen, and thus told him not to touch it again, just in case.

[Luckers]

From the orbit blurb - Approaching Ebou Dar, Mat Cauthon plans to visit his wife Tuon, now Fortuona, Empress of the Seanchan. Now my question would be - if he is still with Mo and Thom, would Suldam sense Mo, in her "weakened" state and still want to make her a damane?

 

Yes, they would. Leashing damane isn't just about their usefulness, the Seanchan regard it as a moral duty, like stopping child molesters. The meeting between Morgase and Suroth makes it clear--even though the Seanchan know Morgase could never channel in a way that threatened another, she would have ended up leashed had she not been the Queen of Andor and represented a political asset--and even so I wouldn't have been at all surprised if she'd ended up leashed eventually. Liandrin's another point--yes, people would have understood why Suroth hadn't leashed her, but ultimately she would have been leashed also, irrespective of her use.

 

Moiraine doesn't even have that slim justification--she can channel when she chooses, and as such, to Seanchan mindset, she MUST be leashed.

 

Now as a damane - would her suldam be able to make her stronger in the one power? Egwene got stronger in certain things, but she was relatively new and full of potential. Mo is like a dried apricot with no juice...I dont think I would want to be holding her leash if she is worthless.

 

No. What occurred with Egwene was that they Forced her--by making her channel more and more they made her gain her natural strength faster. This would not work on Moiraine.

 

I doubt she will go with Mat though. Just a hunch. She needs to be with Rand.

 

That's my feel too, though I've noted in the past that there is an interesting point between Min saying that Rand needs Moiraine to succeed (because without her he'd fail) and the Aelfinn telling Rand that to succeed in the Last Battle he'd need his lands and Seanchan lands to be 'as one'.

 

Of course there are many ways in which Rand could fail, and many things he'll need to do to succeed--but for all that, only two prophecies referring to definates--succeed or fail, Seanchan and Moiraine.

 

since this is a seanchan thread, thought I would point out something interesting I found during a reread

 

Rand touches a adam and Avi says don't do that again, the power surged greatly in them when you did. I wonder if this may come into play

 

That's common--it's the same reason men who can channel who put on the bracelet die screaming (a past time for Radhanan apparently), or why Aran'gar experienced pain when freeing Moghedien. A man cannot be brought into that sort of link, and that's what the a'dam is trying to do when a man who can channel touches it.

[Vardar]

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

[Neophyte]

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

[Luckers]

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Not much, I'm guessing. Though you never know what Talents they might have. Still, they'd leash them. From there--maybe keep them like pets, the damane equivelant of a poodle in a hand bag. Prettiest in show and all that....

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

 

The Seanchan don't despise damane--nor even marath'damane. They despise that the marath'damane has been allowed to run free, and risk the health and safety of the people, but they don't despise them. In point of fact Suroth was shocked and bewildered to realise that Asunawa despised damane. It was beyond understanding to her.

[Neophyte]

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Not much, I'm guessing. Though you never know what Talents they might have. Still, they'd leash them. From there--maybe keep them like pets, the damane equivelant of a poodle in a hand bag. Prettiest in show and all that....

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

 

The Seanchan don't despise damane--nor even marath'damane. They despise that the marath'damane has been allowed to run free, and risk the health and safety of the people, but they don't despise them. In point of fact Suroth was shocked and bewildered to realise that Asunawa despised damane. It was beyond understanding to her.

 

Yes, despise was the wrong word there ... I meant being despised for being useless, rather than simply for being damane, but you're right that that doesn't quite hit the mark. People don't despise useless animals.

 

But then again, for women like Morgase and Sorilea, pity and uselessness might sting more than being actively despised. For Sorilea especially, it might be like being considered da'stang - socially outcast and relegated to doing nothing of value. As far as we know, damane aren't even put to useful physical labor, they're just "exercised."

 

I wonder if useless damane are ever put down? Since the Seanchan only leashed sparkers historically, if sparkers are generally strong enough to be useful, they might not have had to deal with this type of situation before.

[Vardar]

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

 

We had this very debate a few weeks back, we really never came up with an answer. There's not enough info.

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Not much, I'm guessing. Though you never know what Talents they might have. Still, they'd leash them. From there--maybe keep them like pets, the damane equivelant of a poodle in a hand bag. Prettiest in show and all that....

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

 

The Seanchan don't despise damane--nor even marath'damane. They despise that the marath'damane has been allowed to run free, and risk the health and safety of the people, but they don't despise them. In point of fact Suroth was shocked and bewildered to realise that Asunawa despised damane. It was beyond understanding to her.

 

Good point. Androl is pretty weak, but has talents. However he's not Soriela/Mograse weak. I pictured him more Daigan weak.

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Not much, I'm guessing. Though you never know what Talents they might have. Still, they'd leash them. From there--maybe keep them like pets, the damane equivelant of a poodle in a hand bag. Prettiest in show and all that....

 

I wonder what they do with Suldam like Morgase or even Soriela. I mean, she's basically useless as a channeler. What the heck do they have them do.

 

Light candles?

 

Seriously though, I don't know. Is there a correlation between strength and the likelihood of being a sparker? It seems (though I'm not sure this is verified) that sparkers tend to be stronger in the Power. If that is so, then women as weak in the Power as Morgase and Sorilea are likely people who had to be taught to channel, in which case they would have ended up as sul'dam if they had been born in Seanchan. As to what the Seanchan would do with them if they were captured now, I don't really know - they would probably be despised as not only animals, but useless animals.

 

The Seanchan don't despise damane--nor even marath'damane. They despise that the marath'damane has been allowed to run free, and risk the health and safety of the people, but they don't despise them. In point of fact Suroth was shocked and bewildered to realise that Asunawa despised damane. It was beyond understanding to her.

 

Yes, despise was the wrong word there ... I meant being despised for being useless, rather than simply for being damane, but you're right that that doesn't quite hit the mark. People don't despise useless animals.

 

But then again, for women like Morgase and Sorilea, pity and uselessness might sting more than being actively despised. For Sorilea especially, it might be like being considered da'stang - socially outcast and relegated to doing nothing of value. As far as we know, damane aren't even put to useful physical labor, they're just "exercised."

 

I wonder if useless damane are ever put down? Since the Seanchan only leashed sparkers historically, if sparkers are generally strong enough to be useful, they might not have had to deal with this type of situation before.

 

OoOO! Interesting theory.

 

Give them the Old Yeller treatment!

[Luckers]

Oh, yeah, forgot to say--I asked Maria about the sparker thing, and its a no go. They have the same strength range as learners at the same distribution--so yes, there will be the Morgase and Sorilea equivelents in the Empire.

 

And damane do have other roles--for instance we know they run competitions for prettiest damane. It's more than just a slave-force, based on their use--they're like pets.

[Neophyte]

Oh, yeah, forgot to say--I asked Maria about the sparker thing, and its a no go. They have the same strength range as learners at the same distribution--so yes, there will be the Morgase and Sorilea equivelents in the Empire.

 

And damane do have other roles--for instance we know they run competitions for prettiest damane. It's more than just a slave-force, based on their use--they're like pets.

 

That's good to know. But while Morgase might be able to have a go at it, I don't see Sorilea winning any prettiest damane competitions ...

[aross]

@mike

 

I think you raise a great question: If we assume that the leashes will come off, how will it happen? How will Mat stop the Empire from collapsing? How can a wrong be righted? Though it hasn't been much discussed, I've always figured that Ishamael's influence way back when had something to do with the leashings ("Don't trust the Aes Sedai, Capture the Aes Sedai, Use the Aes Sedai, you understand?).

 

So if A Memory of Light is about returning to that place on the Wheel where the Prison is whole, then maybe it's about other balances too.

 

There are a few motivations that could bring about a freeing of the damane:

 

1) Mat convinces Tuon.

2) The need to link.

3) The need to channel with men.

4) The need to cooperate with allies / The Dragon's Peace.

5) Learning that much of Seanchan beliefs were perverted by a Forsaken devil whisperer. (not likely)

6) Convincing by former suldam and damane.

 

But in truth I've tried to imagine how it would happen and I've got no clue. I guess this is why we read the books, right? ;-)

[Vardar]

Oh, yeah, forgot to say--I asked Maria about the sparker thing, and its a no go. They have the same strength range as learners at the same distribution--so yes, there will be the Morgase and Sorilea equivelents in the Empire.

 

And damane do have other roles--for instance we know they run competitions for prettiest damane. It's more than just a slave-force, based on their use--they're like pets.

 

Yea but a pretty dog, who does no other dog things is still pretty useless.

 

Unless it's company. So odd.

[Pinzarn]

Does Mat's status of Prince of Ravens give him some leeway if Moiraine was with him? Couldn't he claim her as property and no one, other than the Empress (may she live forever), could touch her?

[Vardar]

Does Mat's status of Prince of Ravens give him some leeway if Moiraine was with him? Couldn't he claim her as property and no one, other than the Empress (may she live forever), could touch her?

 

If Mat did show up with her, I doubt they'd try to leash her. They didn't try to leash Ny when she was with Mat. It would be a meeting of that sort.

[Lisa Campbell]

Do you mean when Nynaeve was with Rand at his first meeting with (real) Tuon Vards? Wasn't there some kind of parley then?

[Vardar]

Do you mean when Nynaeve was with Rand at his first meeting with (real) Tuon Vards? Wasn't there some kind of parley then?

 

Yep that's what I meant. Mat coming to Tuon would be the same sort of event, leashing his friend during that type of situation would in theory bring the anger of the empire down upon whoever did it.

 

Now would Tuon try to order it? I doubt it, she's pretty damn smart.

[Lisa Campbell]

Because she knows he can just remove the collar even if she channels at him. Smart enough not to repeat her own mistakes.

 

That also brings to mind about burning out and stilling from that other thread. Didn't Satelle cover up feeling/knowing that that channeling didn't work on Mat? Wasn't Satelle burned out experimenting or something? I don't get the distinction and why one can be healed and not the other...

[Vardar]

Because she knows he can just remove the collar even if she channels at him. Smart enough not to repeat her own mistakes.

 

That also brings to mind about burning out and stilling from that other thread. Didn't Satelle cover up feeling/knowing that that channeling didn't work on Mat? Wasn't Satelle burned out experimenting or something? I don't get the distinction and why one can be healed and not the other...

 

She never mentioned if she can feel or not, and Moggy never tried to walk when Le/Su had the collar on. So it's really inconclusive.

 

Well aside from Luckers quote saying those AS Rand stilled really were burned out thus buring out can be healed too.

[jwood01]

I would guess that Moiraine will be headed to the FoM and then SG. Probably not Ebou Dar with Mat.

 

As to the a'dam; Rand Sedai seems pretty damn powerfull e.g., battle of Maradon, maybe he will destroy all a'dam in the world with a single stroke.

[thisguy]

Because she knows he can just remove the collar even if she channels at him. Smart enough not to repeat her own mistakes.

 

That also brings to mind about burning out and stilling from that other thread. Didn't Satelle cover up feeling/knowing that that channeling didn't work on Mat? Wasn't Satelle burned out experimenting or something? I don't get the distinction and why one can be healed and not the other...

 

The way I look at stilling and burning out is like a lightbulb - if you took the glass off a bulb and cut the filament, it would no longer work. However, you could reattach the two ends of the filament together and the light would then light up. A burn out is just completely destroying the bulb. There's nothing there anymore with the potential to light up. Don't know if I'm right, but that's the way I look at it.

[mike hunt's here]

I think I got my answer - that

 

1. perrin's ashaman in camp sends a gateway at noon for mat to the FoM.

2. mo is reunited with Rand

3. Rand learns Mat has influence with Tuon

4. Rand sends Mat to Ebou Dar

 

Now I wonder who goes with mat...because he needs a channeller to return, either ashaman or aes sedai.

 

I'm thinking it would be too much to expect that mat brings back elaida via gateway and has her stand trial or get her retribution from the other AS. Along with that yellow named nyra? i think.

[Luckers]

Because she knows he can just remove the collar even if she channels at him. Smart enough not to repeat her own mistakes.

 

That also brings to mind about burning out and stilling from that other thread. Didn't Satelle cover up feeling/knowing that that channeling didn't work on Mat? Wasn't Satelle burned out experimenting or something? I don't get the distinction and why one can be healed and not the other...

 

She never mentioned if she can feel or not, and Moggy never tried to walk when Le/Su had the collar on. So it's really inconclusive.

 

It wouldn't matter--Elayne changed Moghedien's a'dam to allow her to walk around even if the bracelet wasn't being worn.