So a thought came to me...

[Suttree]

And no, Perrin trading one deadly weapon for another deadly weapon doesn't count as an event. He's still going to kill plenty of people, what difference does it make whether it's by an ax, or a hammer? Crushing people's limbs is better than cutting them? Give me a break.

 

Not that you had much of a point before, but if you missed(or are purposely ignoring for the sake of arguing) things like the significance of the above there really is no reason to continue the discussion.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Basically the only thing Sutt and I disagree on concern BS and his writing style. Same with Mr Ares as far as I know. That and I'm still not convinced Graendal killed Asmodean. : ]

 

They continue to refute every point you guys try to make. Yet you keep basing everything you say on your personal beliefs and how you THINK it should have gone, ignoring all factual and canonical evidence to the contrary. Writing off foreshadowing and symbolism because you don't like the deeper meanings behind them. You think they're boring, not enough OP use or fight scenes or whatever. Even red herrings aren't an inherently bad thing. I personally find it enjoyable to be tricked in a book and be completely wrong about something I thought was so obvious. It's boggling my mind as to why you even bothered with the series and continue to stick with it.

 

Well hey, when AMoL comes out you can just turn to the LB chapters and you'll be saved from the thought process that goes along with contemplation of deeper meaning that happens in between the OP fights and Trollocs getting slaughtered. Score. : ]

[Luckers]

A surprising amount happens in CoT, the problem is simply that it reads like precisely what it is--the first half of KoD. As such there is a lot of leg work--leg work which pays off in KoD, such as the development for Malden, Egwene finishing her growth as a political leader allowing her to take her next step in KoD of becoming a person who leads simply through her sheer will, self and example. We see the steps that allow for the Black Tower scenario, with the vote following word of Shadar Logoth, and we see the lead up for Semirhage, the situation with the Seanchan, for Mat and Tuon's wedding...

 

We see a lot of development, a lot of legwork--and then no pay off. Not until KoD was released. So I do get the frustration, and the locked-in idea that CoT was just filler. Jordan himself said he would have handled CoT differently, if he'd had it to do over--but for all that it wasn't just filler--there is a great deal in CoT upon which the rest of the series sits as support, and it does actually read quite well--as the first half of KoD.

[Mr Ares]

So unless a plotline unfolds in the way you want it to

I'm sorry, do you honestly not see the difference between a plotline reaching its logical conclusion, and a plotline accidentally triggering a completely different plotline along the way, and fading into obscurity? The harbors blocked by cuendillar is yet another thing that's built up only to serve as a red herring and a futile waste of time. It never makes any difference in and of itself. The blocked harbors are hardly mentioned afterwards, and play no role in the reunification of the White Tower. Other things do. This was simply used by RJ as a convenient excuse to transport Egwene from the rebel camp to the White Tower.

So what? Yes, the rediscovery of cuendillar is used to manoeuvre Egwene into position. That doesn't make it a futile waste of time. It serves a function in the plot. That plotline leads from one point to another. There might be a difference between a plotline reaching a logical conclusion and one that serves as set up for a different plotline, but that doesn't mean that one of them lacks merit. The harbours being blocked fulfills a function in the narrative. There is a reason for it to be there. It does not go nowhere, it simply does not go where expected. Which was my initial point - just because it doesn't go the way you want it to does not mean it has no merit or that it goes nowhere.

 

Because I can explain quite simply how he could find the Shaido without breakfast - he could simply look for them without eating breakfast

Eating breakfast implies having something to eat on a regular basis. Or any number of mundane needs that we don't want to read about. Perrin can't fight the Shaido starving to death, he can't fight the Shaido naked, he can't fight the Shaido falling over from tiredness - that doesn't mean you're supposed to write a book where he does nothing but eat, dress up, and have a good night's sleep - that's not important. We assume this happened as we read the book, without thinking about it.

 

Being physically close to the Shaido is just another mundane condition that cannot serve as a basis for a plotline. As benevolent cow reminds us, he didn't even go looking for them - other people did. He just sits around in the camp moping about Faile and listens to people's reports on things that will never pay off in future volumes. Useless.

Considering the number of times people have started threads (or derailed existing threads) with discussion on feeding the populations and the armies, logistics, and such like, I'd say the evidence indicates that some people, at least, do care about the characters eating, sleeping, using the latrines, making sure all the horses have horseshoes, etc. Simply because you see no merit in the inclusion of these details, doesn't mean others agree. What, exactly, doesn't pay off in future volumes in these reports Perrin hears? Bearing in mind this is an incomplete series and so might merely have not paid off yet. Given that finding the Shaido is dealt with so briefly, your complaints about it seem even more overblown. It's not a plotline, nor a basis for one, it is merely an event in an ongoing plotline. You have to find them before you can fight them. CoT has the finding, KoD has the fighting.

 

as foreshadowed since the first books

Who. The hell. Cares. If it was foretold. It's still a contrivance that doesn't even make any logical sense. You can kill, maim, and threaten people with a hammer just as well as with an ax, it's not that big of a deal. Yet another ridiculous detail blown out of proportion for the sake of making the book longer.

Who cares? Well, again, quite a lot of people care about the various prophecies, visions, foretellings and the like. Ignoring symbolism and character development doesn't mean it isn't there, or doesn't serve some function. And how much longer does it make the book? If RJ really wanted to make the books longer, I'm sure there are any number of really irrelevant details he could have added, plotlines that truly do go nowhere and have no importance. That you refuse to see the logic doesn't mean there is no logic. A blacksmith sees a blacksmiths hammer in a different light to an axe which he was created solely for fighting. That you can kill as well with either is unimportant, what is important is what they represent to Perrin, why he is making that choice, and what they signify to the world at large given the prophecies.

 

The hammer he carried throughout the series came from a blacksmith. It was a tool, not a weapon. With a hammer, he can kill, but he can also rebuild

Except he never does that, he just keeps on killing.

Again, incomplete series. That some things haven't paid off yet doesn't mean they never will. And he does create something - mah'alleinir. I suppose he could forge that just as easily with an axe.

[Morsker]

The hammer he carried throughout the series came from a blacksmith. It was a tool, not a weapon. With a hammer, he can kill, but he can also rebuild

Except he never does that, he just keeps on killing.

It's supposed to be a metaphor for a soldier's ability to adapt back to civilian life, after his time in military life. With the axe, he never could have gone back. With the hammer, he can go back.

 

I don't like it either. I think it's redundant to the Dark Rand plotline and serves no purpose.

[Agitel]

Let's keep in mind that Egwene has a natural talent in Earth, something most woman channelers this side of the Aryth Ocean lack. Her special talent in Earth and with making cuendillar is why she personally went to the harbor despite her rank instead of leaving it to others. It also helps explain funding for the army. It does make sense. It did go somewhere. Just because RJ could have done the plot differently doesn't make it filler. He could have done the whole series different and made it a trilogy.

[Glyphwright]

It's supposed to be a metaphor

I know the ax is regarded as a tool suited purely for killing people (even though it isn't, you can for instance chop wood with an ax), whereas a hammer can be used both for combat and as a peaceful tool (even though the same can be said of the ax), and by choosing the hammer over the ax Perrin chose to engage in combat only for as long as it's needed to protect Faile and people dear to him, and to return to a peaceful after all this is over. I get it.

 

It's just that, neither the metaphor nor Perrin's entire storyline throughout the books are particularly interesting to me on a purely subjective level, it's handled in a very mundane and predictable manner, it's thoroughly lacks the magic, epicness and metaphysics you read a fantasy series for. And, of course, the metaphor falls flat over the fact that trading a slashing weapon for a crushing weapon isn't that big of a change regardless of what they are supposed to stand for, you can do as much damage with a hammer that you can with an ax, and you can use both weapons for peaceful and necessary (though mundane) purposes. It's not a good metaphor, and it's not an interesting character, and he accomplishes absolutely nothing in the damn CoT filler volume.

 

 

Her special talent in Earth and with making cuendillar is why she personally went to the harbor despite her rank instead of leaving it to others

Too bad the blocked harbours never made even the slightest difference in the end.

 

Ares, sorry, you have to do better than mechanically contradicting my every point for me to be interesting in debating you. I say a plotline that leads nowhere isn't in any way redeemed by an offshoot plotline that it accidentally triggered, you say it is. I say a lackluster character or development aren't improved by any amounts of foreshadowing or symbolism earlier in the text, you say they are. And so on. This is just crushing water in a mortar and can go on for a very long time.

[Agitel]

It's supposed to be a metaphor

I know the ax is regarded as a tool suited purely for killing people (even though it isn't, you can for instance chop wood with an ax), whereas a hammer can be used both for combat and as a peaceful tool (even though the same can be said of the ax), and by choosing the hammer over the ax Perrin chose to engage in combat only for as long as it's needed to protect Faile and people dear to him, and to return to a peaceful after all this is over. I get it.

 

It's just that, neither the metaphor nor Perrin's entire storyline throughout the books are particularly interesting to me on a purely subjective level, it's handled in a very mundane and predictable manner, it's thoroughly lacks the magic, epicness and metaphysics you read a fantasy series for. And, of course, the metaphor falls flat over the fact that trading a slashing weapon for a crushing weapon isn't that big of a change regardless of what they are supposed to stand for, you can do as much damage with a hammer that you can with an ax, and you can use both weapons for peaceful and necessary (though mundane) purposes. It's not a good metaphor, and it's not an interesting character, and he accomplishes absolutely nothing in the damn CoT filler volume.

 

 

Her special talent in Earth and with making cuendillar is why she personally went to the harbor despite her rank instead of leaving it to others

Too bad the blocked harbours never made even the slightest difference in the end.

 

Ares, sorry, you have to do better than mechanically contradicting my every point for me to be interesting in debating you. I say a plotline that leads nowhere isn't in any way redeemed by an offshoot plotline that it accidentally triggered, you say it is. I say a lackluster character or development aren't improved by any amounts of foreshadowing or symbolism earlier in the text, you say they are. And so on. This is just crushing water in a mortar and can go on for a very long time.

 

The axe and hammer wasn't about killing versus peace, it was about destruction versus creation. Both an axe and a hammer can be used peacefully. However, the axe can only be used for destructive purposes (chopping wood is destructive). The hammer can be just as destructive (it's not about being less destructive), but is also a tool used to create things.

 

Egwene going out personally to block the harbors made every difference in the end.

 

And again, it's not filler. You can criticize it for not coming to any meaningful resolutions within that single volume, but that doesn't make it filler. It's the first half of one story. Filler is like the (infamous) Dragon Ball Z episode where Goku goes to driving school.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: Not wanting to sound offensive.

 

It seems that the debate is being debated on two separate levels.

 

The point being made by Sutts, Mr Ares etc.. is that, important plot points are advanced. Which makes it more than filler.

 

Nobody is saying that it is done well, that it is satisfying or that it is good.

 

Whether or not the advances are interesting is besides the point. Without these plot points advancing, there would be a hole in the narrative. These events would have to be explained in some form.

 

Now fair enough if you think it could have been done better.. However, that is not the point being made by Sutts. Mr Ares, myself and others.

 

In fact I agree that CoT could have been done better. RJ himself agreed. It could have been compressed by half. There is certainly a substantial amount of filler in CoT.

 

There are however, important plot details in CoT that cannot just be cut. There is some point in book, if overshadowed by the slow pace and necessary parts.

[TootThatHorn]

So unless a plotline unfolds in the way you want it to

I'm sorry, do you honestly not see the difference between a plotline reaching its logical conclusion, and a plotline accidentally triggering a completely different plotline along the way, and fading into obscurity? The harbors blocked by cuendillar is yet another thing that's built up only to serve as a red herring and a futile waste of time. It never makes any difference in and of itself. The blocked harbors are hardly mentioned afterwards, and play no role in the reunification of the White Tower. Other things do. This was simply used by RJ as a convenient excuse to transport Egwene from the rebel camp to the White Tower.

 

True, but if something happens it is an event. And stuff happened. Now, you can say not enough happened, but not enough happening does not preclude stuff happening. An event being minor does not make it not an event any more.

I'll just leave this particular quote without comment.

 

Because I can explain quite simply how he could find the Shaido without breakfast - he could simply look for them without eating breakfast

Eating breakfast implies having something to eat on a regular basis. Or any number of mundane needs that we don't want to read about. Perrin can't fight the Shaido starving to death, he can't fight the Shaido naked, he can't fight the Shaido falling over from tiredness - that doesn't mean you're supposed to write a book where he does nothing but eat, dress up, and have a good night's sleep - that's not important. We assume this happened as we read the book, without thinking about it.

 

Being physically close to the Shaido is just another mundane condition that cannot serve as a basis for a plotline. As benevolent cow reminds us, he didn't even go looking for them - other people did. He just sits around in the camp moping about Faile and listens to people's reports on things that will never pay off in future volumes. Useless.

 

as foreshadowed since the first books

Who. The hell. Cares. If it was foretold. It's still a contrivance that doesn't even make any logical sense. You can kill, maim, and threaten people with a hammer just as well as with an ax, it's not that big of a deal. Yet another ridiculous detail blown out of proportion for the sake of making the book longer.

 

The hammer he carried throughout the series came from a blacksmith. It was a tool, not a weapon. With a hammer, he can kill, but he can also rebuild

Except he never does that, he just keeps on killing.

 

I'm sorry but I'm just getting the idea from reading these that you've probably never enjoyed anything you've read because it wasn't predictable.

[Mr Ares]

It's supposed to be a metaphor

I know the ax is regarded as a tool suited purely for killing people (even though it isn't, you can for instance chop wood with an ax), whereas a hammer can be used both for combat and as a peaceful tool (even though the same can be said of the ax), and by choosing the hammer over the ax Perrin chose to engage in combat only for as long as it's needed to protect Faile and people dear to him, and to return to a peaceful after all this is over. I get it.

 

It's just that, neither the metaphor nor Perrin's entire storyline throughout the books are particularly interesting to me on a purely subjective level, it's handled in a very mundane and predictable manner, it's thoroughly lacks the magic, epicness and metaphysics you read a fantasy series for. And, of course, the metaphor falls flat over the fact that trading a slashing weapon for a crushing weapon isn't that big of a change regardless of what they are supposed to stand for, you can do as much damage with a hammer that you can with an ax, and you can use both weapons for peaceful and necessary (though mundane) purposes. It's not a good metaphor, and it's not an interesting character, and he accomplishes absolutely nothing in the damn CoT filler volume.

 

 

Her special talent in Earth and with making cuendillar is why she personally went to the harbor despite her rank instead of leaving it to others

Too bad the blocked harbours never made even the slightest difference in the end.

 

Ares, sorry, you have to do better than mechanically contradicting my every point for me to be interesting in debating you. I say a plotline that leads nowhere isn't in any way redeemed by an offshoot plotline that it accidentally triggered, you say it is. I say a lackluster character or development aren't improved by any amounts of foreshadowing or symbolism earlier in the text, you say they are. And so on. This is just crushing water in a mortar and can go on for a very long time.

Trying to debate opinions is futile. It is the facts that can be debated. Whether or not Perrin is a character you find interesting is not something that can be constructively debated. Whether the cuendillar plotline went anywhere is a matter of fact. It did go somewhere. Are you familiar with the concept of a plot twist? Because that is exactly what we have an example of. Sealing the harbours led to Egwene's capture, Egwene's capture led to reunification. That the sealing of the harbours only indirectly resulted in reunification is beside the point - it was an outcome that derived from that action. My point is that saying that plotline leads nowhere is factually incorrect. It did lead somewhere. You can be as uninterested as you like in Perrin's story. Or any plotline. But if you make statements that are based on facts, I can debate the factual accuracy of your statements. If you say things that are manifestly untrue, don't be surprised if people take issue with your statements.