Moiraine and her new angreal

[fuzz1717]

It's okay; blame RJ for always portraying them that way. We never see Luc in the dream, and we never see Isam in the real world.

 

I think in WH 22 we see either Luc in TAR or Isam in the real world, i don't have the book in front of me but i remember thinking that that was weird cuz I had always previously assumed that Luc was real world and Isam was TAR. I may be wrong though, like i said i don't have the book with me atm

[Veracohr]

In tFoH, Moiraine puts the very powerful angreal, that she now has as of ToM, out in the open on the wagon bed, so that Lanfear would find it and go crazy on Rand et al

Does this bug anyone else that it is kind of a "seeing the future" thing? Gitara Moroso's actions e.g., sending Luke north, sending Tigraine to the Waste, etc. kind of bug me too.

however, my gut feeling is that Gitara's involvement in Rand being born and Moiraine's orchestrated confrontation with Lanfear were just too blunt.

 

I'm not sure I completely understand what you don't like about it. Do you not like it from a storytelling perspective, as in a criticism of the writing, or do you mean you see something suspicious from a character perspective?

 

By the way, Lanfear didn't go crazy because of the angreal. She was talking to Kadere inside a wagon, and then she exploded it in anger and started ranting to Rand about which woman he had been with. I assume Kadere told her he'd heard a rumor that Rand had lain with someone.

 

As far as the angreal, my interpretation was that Moiraine saw in Rhuidean that she would confront Lanfear on that particular wagon. Not knowing when it would happen, she placed the angreal there so she could have a fighting chance whenever that time came.

[a5m]

As far as the angreal, my interpretation was that Moiraine saw in Rhuidean that she would confront Lanfear on that particular wagon. Not knowing when it would happen, she placed the angreal there so she could have a fighting chance whenever that time came.

 

Moiraine had the door uncovered and moved the angreal to the correct wagon the night before the confrontation. Up until that point, the angreal was being kept safe near the seals. She placed the angreal there to lure Lanfear onto the wagon so that she could push her through the door. She knew that this would happen the morning after Rand found out about Morgase. She knew, based on the knowledge from the rings, that there was no other way to stop Lanfear.

[thisguy]

Yup, and don't forget it was the Wise One dreamers that saw she had to go into Rhuidean. She was meant to be the one to kill Lanfear, the little tough ass.

[shortkut]

why does gitara's foretelling have to be a lightside prophecy? a prophecy is a prophecy is a prophecy regardless of who it seems to favor

 

Have we seen a single instance of a light side character having a "dark side" foretelling?

no but we have seen neutral foretellings. were you legitimately asking a question or just trying to play devil's advocate?

[Suttree]

why does gitara's foretelling have to be a lightside prophecy? a prophecy is a prophecy is a prophecy regardless of who it seems to favor

 

Have we seen a single instance of a light side character having a "dark side" foretelling?

no but we have seen neutral foretellings. were you legitimately asking a question or just trying to play devil's advocate?

 

Legit question, don't believe we have seen one. What would you consider neutral btw?

[shortkut]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an expression

[FarShainMael]

And for the other people saying that i shouldn't like fantasy if i don't like Foretelling and seeing the future. I LOVE fantasy, and that is why I am online commenting on a series of books I have been reading and rereading since I was 14 or 15 (I am now 31).

 

I do not necessarily have an issue with the manifest destiny aspect of much of the fantasy genre or this series; however, my gut feeling is that Gitara's involvement in Rand being born and Moiraine's orchestrated confrontation with Lanfear were just too blunt. This is just my feeling, and obviously we can all have different feeling when reading a series.

 

And at the same time, it could be that one of Gitara's actions come out in an unexpected manner, e.g., Luc/Isam's riole in the LB

 

There are a couple (at least!) of threads exploring the possibility that Gitara might be a Darkfriend, trying to prevent the birth of the DR.. but when she realised she'd actually brought it about, she died of the shock.

 

Here's one of those threads:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/70566-slayers-role-in-tg-gitara-moroso-black-ajah/

 

I'll see if I can find the others.

[Vardar]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an expression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

[FarShainMael]

And for the other people saying that i shouldn't like fantasy if i don't like Foretelling and seeing the future. I LOVE fantasy, and that is why I am online commenting on a series of books I have been reading and rereading since I was 14 or 15 (I am now 31).

 

I do not necessarily have an issue with the manifest destiny aspect of much of the fantasy genre or this series; however, my gut feeling is that Gitara's involvement in Rand being born and Moiraine's orchestrated confrontation with Lanfear were just too blunt. This is just my feeling, and obviously we can all have different feeling when reading a series.

 

And at the same time, it could be that one of Gitara's actions come out in an unexpected manner, e.g., Luc/Isam's riole in the LB

 

There are a couple (at least!) of threads exploring the possibility that Gitara might be a Darkfriend, trying to prevent the birth of the DR.. but when she realised she'd actually brought it about, she died of the shock.

 

Here's one of those threads:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/70566-slayers-role-in-tg-gitara-moroso-black-ajah/

 

I'll see if I can find the others.

 

Here you go..

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/20574-isam-and-luc/

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/29153-dyelins-talk-to-rand-in-lord-of-chaos/

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/5290-luc-and-isam/

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/57309-lucs-role/

[shortkut]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an exp<b></b>ression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

the darkside is very interested in his being born. they want to be able to turn him. they also do not want to be surprised of his existence. this foretelling essentially says he is reborn and nothing light or dark, it is neutral

[TristanWebb]

Foretelling is foretelling, the future is set in stone when it comes to them. The words that come with the foretelling might be affected somewhat by the personality of the foreteller, but the actual content is set by the pattern.

 

It is also something to note that damane can pseudo foretell at will, so in the AoL the foretellings possibly had some training and direction behind it, which would further color the foretellings.

[Suttree]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an exp<b></b>ression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

 

That should go without saying...

[Vardar]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an expression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

 

That should go without saying...

 

Ae you agreeing? (Or am I missing something)

[Suttree]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an expression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

 

That should go without saying...

 

Ae you agreeing? (Or am I missing something)

 

Totally agreeing.

[Vardar]

when rand was born.

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!

 

"light help us" seems more like an expression

 

I'd consider that a Light Side fortelling. I mean, Rand is the champion of Light, so...

 

That should go without saying...

 

Ae you agreeing? (Or am I missing something)

 

Totally agreeing.

 

Ok.

[shortkut]

can either of you say what makes it a lightside prophecy besides using a decent name for rand? i could argue that gitara was a DF because she said it burns. we know that it burns to have DF took at reintegrated rand, maybe as a baby ltt's soul was strong since rand's was only just beginning. i still feel it is neutral since it benefits no one except whomever was around to hear it nor does it even give any advice or suggestions.

 

actually, on second thought, is it even a foretelling if it is about the present and not the future?

[thisguy]

On the one hand, I think a prophecy is a prophecy - there is no light or dark. But, we see that most of the prophecies are really guides and guide posts. We know that Rand could have failed taking the Stone of Tear. So, I guess there might be prophecies which would guide the dark side.

[Suttree]

We have known there are Dark Prophecies since TGH. I was just wonering if we have ever had a light side characte give one.

 

BS had this to say...

 

Interview: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Ty Margheim (8 November 2010)

 

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon Sanderson (8 November 2010)

 

 

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

Footnote

 

The questioner is probably referring to the dark/light prophecies, as this makes the best comparison for Eddings. Brandon is saying that they will all be fulfilled, whether dark or light. (The Seanchan prophecies are another matter altogether, and Brandon was hinting at this in his last tweet; there is good reason to believe that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted.)

[thisguy]

That's right. I completely forgot about that. I doubt it. Do you consider what the rings of Rhuidean show as prophecy? If so, Moiraine saw three paths and two lead to Rand dying or going to the Shadow. If you mean prophecy written in verse, I can't think of one.

[Sharaman]

One thing worth noting.

Whatever Moiraine sees as her role in TG, etc., it probably has little to do with her strength in the OP.

She offered to relinquish the semi-sa'angreal when chatting to Thom - that offer had to be genuine.

While she may be willing to make many sacrifices for the sake of her love-life, she's exceedingly unlikely to jeopardise the prospects of victory in TG.

That said, the AMoL illustration suggests she is indeed placed in a situation where she must use the OP.,

[Maleshub]

One thing worth noting.

Whatever Moiraine sees as her role in TG, etc., it probably has little to do with her strength in the OP.

She offered to relinquish the semi-sa'angreal when chatting to Thom - that offer had to be genuine.

While she may be willing to make many sacrifices for the sake of her love-life, she's exceedingly unlikely to jeopardise the prospects of victory in TG.

That said, the AMoL illustration suggests she is indeed placed in a situation where she must use the OP.,

 

Regarding the underlined text, I think it is safe to assume that the amount of power in Callandor's circle is irrelevant to the task. It is safe to assume that LTT and the 100 Companions wielded much more power than the Callandor circle; and they still failed to seal the DO permanently. This time around, when the Bore seems to be destined for a perfect sealing, what is needed is less power but more technique.

[Vardar]

One thing worth noting.

Whatever Moiraine sees as her role in TG, etc., it probably has little to do with her strength in the OP.

She offered to relinquish the semi-sa'angreal when chatting to Thom - that offer had to be genuine.

While she may be willing to make many sacrifices for the sake of her love-life, she's exceedingly unlikely to jeopardise the prospects of victory in TG.

That said, the AMoL illustration suggests she is indeed placed in a situation where she must use the OP.,

 

Regarding the underlined text, I think it is safe to assume that the amount of power in Callandor's circle is irrelevant to the task. It is safe to assume that LTT and the 100 Companions wielded much more power than the Callandor circle; and they still failed to seal the DO permanently. This time around, when the Bore seems to be destined for a perfect sealing, what is needed is less power but more technique.

 

Well ltt and the companions weren't linked, so callendor and it's mini circle well technically wield more powah.

[Maleshub]

One thing worth noting.

Whatever Moiraine sees as her role in TG, etc., it probably has little to do with her strength in the OP.

She offered to relinquish the semi-sa'angreal when chatting to Thom - that offer had to be genuine.

While she may be willing to make many sacrifices for the sake of her love-life, she's exceedingly unlikely to jeopardise the prospects of victory in TG.

That said, the AMoL illustration suggests she is indeed placed in a situation where she must use the OP.,

 

Regarding the underlined text, I think it is safe to assume that the amount of power in Callandor's circle is irrelevant to the task. It is safe to assume that LTT and the 100 Companions wielded much more power than the Callandor circle; and they still failed to seal the DO permanently. This time around, when the Bore seems to be destined for a perfect sealing, what is needed is less power but more technique.

 

Well ltt and the companions weren't linked, so callendor and it's mini circle well technically wield more powah.

 

My understanding of WoT is that there is no way that a circle of 3 combined with Callandor included would wield more raw power than LTT and the 100 companions (some of them the most powerful male AS in history) with the angreal and ter'angreal they (presumably) took with them in the Strike on Shayol Ghul. I envision it as something like this in terms of raw power:

 

Rand (plus Callandor) + Nynaeve (minus her angreal) + Moiraine (with her bracelet) is smaller than

Rand (minus callandor) + Companion 1 + Companion 2 (with angreal) + Companion 3 + Companion 4 (with angreal) ............................................................................................................................................................................................................. + Companion 99 + Companion 100 .

[Morsker]

can either of you say what makes it a lightside prophecy besides using a decent name for rand? i could argue that gitara was a DF because she said it burns. we know that it burns to have DF took at reintegrated rand, maybe as a baby ltt's soul was strong since rand's was only just beginning. i still feel it is neutral since it benefits no one except whomever was around to hear it nor does it even give any advice or suggestions.

I like the comparison to other DFs who've encountered LTT/Rand. The Foretelling killing her made Rand seem too evil. Obviously that's the whole point in the early books, when the world is scared of him. But finding out later on that Gitara was a DF would be a nice reversal.

 

Did anyone ever tell Rand he killed a woman just by being born?

 

I think light / dark prophecies are just a matter of phrasing and the Foreteller's biases. They don't get to choose the words, but it still comes with some cultural and personal bias. If she's Black, Gitara has sworn Oaths not to betray the secrets of the Black Ajah, plus she's deep undercover. It would be natural for her to use phrasing that doesn't sound like she's a Darkfriend. (She could break the Oath if she knew she was going to die in much less than an hour. But she didn't get much time to think things through. Foretelling, then dead.)