Machin Shin....the Black wind

[bigdoug1971]

Has anyone ever figured out or had a reasonable explanation for how the Black Wind was waiting for Rand in Carhein in The Great Hunt when he tried to follow Fain and get the Horn of Valere back? It was also waiting for him at Stedding Tsofu when they tried the Waygate there too. I know Aes Sedai can be wrong about things they believe to be true, but Verin says nobody can order Machin Shin to do anything.

 

Wasn't it odd that it was waiting for him at both Waygates when he was trying to get to Toman Head? When Rand opened the gate in Carhein he heard the 10,000 insane voices whispering and screaming and in the back of it all, a constant buzz saying "Al Thor, Al Thor, Al Thor" over and over.

 

Do we know if Fain can tell the wind what to do? It wouldn't be a creature of Shadar Logoth as far as I can tell, it came from the taint on the Saidin they were created with. Just curious to get everyone's opinion on how or why it's possible.

[Sharaman]

The canon explanation is, when Fain met Machin Shin, it didn't try to eat his soul out of "professional respect" - essence of GLoD+ essence of Mordeth+ Whatever was left of Fain's original personality impressed the Machin Shin.

However, the Wind did chat to Fain and it picked up both his need and his ability to sense Rand.

[Gristle]

In ToM Fain is using something like MS at will. I wasn't clear on whether it was the original version, or if he's now creating his own version as his evil evolves. Either way, based on that I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that once he was subsumed by Mordeth he could interact with, and possibly command MS.

[Barid Bel Medar]

In ToM Fain is using something like MS at will. I wasn't clear on whether it was the original version, or if he's now creating his own version as his evil evolves. Either way, based on that I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that once he was subsumed by Mordeth he could interact with, and possibly command MS.

 

It was much more like Mashadar rather than Machin Shin, to me anyway. I think that power was a distilled version of Mashadar.

[Shig]

Yeh i always thought that Fain sort of imprinted his hatred of rand and his desire to both find and kill Rand on Machin Shin. Im also getting this weird feeling that machin shin was also a little afraid of fain

[Wolf505]

An interesting question I think hasn't been answered as of yet: since Machin Shin was created by the taint, and the taint is gone, is it possible to cleanse the Ways now? As far as I know nobody on the Light side has been into the Ways since Perrin and Faile went to the Two Rivers. Loial and Manfor locked all the Waygates, but I doubt they actually went into the Ways.

 

It's also interesting that the massive horde of 100k+ trollocs that attacked the manor house in Tear came through the Ways, but from what we know of the Ways that many trollocs would've attracted Machin Shin like a starving dog attacking a leg of lamb. So what's the deal? Either someone (and I doubt Fain could command that many trollocs so it isn't him) has figured out how to control Machin Shin, or Machin Shin is no longer an issue. I doubt they could've brought that many trollocs in small groups without being noticed. The Waygate is right outside Stedding Shangtai and I'm pretty sure someone would've noticed a huge horde of trollocs slowly building up.

[Barid Bel Medar]

An interesting question I think hasn't been answered as of yet: since Machin Shin was created by the taint, and the taint is gone, is it possible to cleanse the Ways now? As far as I know nobody on the Light side has been into the Ways since Perrin and Faile went to the Two Rivers. Loial and Manfor locked all the Waygates, but I doubt they actually went into the Ways.

 

It's also interesting that the massive horde of 100k+ trollocs that attacked the manor house in Tear came through the Ways, but from what we know of the Ways that many trollocs would've attracted Machin Shin like a starving dog attacking a leg of lamb. So what's the deal? Either someone (and I doubt Fain could command that many trollocs so it isn't him) has figured out how to control Machin Shin, or Machin Shin is no longer an issue. I doubt they could've brought that many trollocs in small groups without being noticed. The Waygate is right outside Stedding Shangtai and I'm pretty sure someone would've noticed a huge horde of trollocs slowly building up.

 

1. No, no it wouldn't be cleansed.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

2. It is not sure that the Ways were used in KoD for the attack, but immunity against Machin Shin has been hinted at since tGH. How is a different matter, which hasn't been answered.

[Glokta]

An interesting question I think hasn't been answered as of yet: since Machin Shin was created by the taint, and the taint is gone, is it possible to cleanse the Ways now? As far as I know nobody on the Light side has been into the Ways since Perrin and Faile went to the Two Rivers. Loial and Manfor locked all the Waygates, but I doubt they actually went into the Ways.

 

 

1. No, no it wouldn't be cleansed.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

 

I understand that Machin Shin could not been cleansed when Saidin was cleansed by Rand and Nyn. However, if the Ways were to be cleansed of Machin Shin now, it would not be able to "grow" back since according to RJ it can be compared to a bacteria that would feed on the taint... If the taint is gone, Machin Shin has nothing to feed on, so it should not be anymore...

Or am I missing something?

Also, I guess it will not be developped now in AMOL, but I would have loved to see the Ways as they used to be (with light, trees, etc...)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I understand that Machin Shin could not been cleansed when Saidin was cleansed by Rand and Nyn. However, if the Ways were to be cleansed of Machin Shin now, it would not be able to "grow" back since according to RJ it can be compared to a bacteria that would feed on the taint... If the taint is gone, Machin Shin has nothing to feed on, so it should not be anymore...

Or am I missing something?

Also, I guess it will not be developped now in AMOL, but I would have loved to see the Ways as they used to be (with light, trees, etc...)

 

Well, it is a difficult one. You can look at it two ways.

 

The Ways were tainted because Tainted Saidin was used in their creation.

 

It could be that the tainting occured simply because saidin was touching it. So imagine saidin being an "odour", and the Ways are a sealed room. If the odour enters the room, it slowly corrupts the air = MS. In this case, if the corruption is cleansed, the odour is no longer there to re-corrupt the place, and should go back to normal.

 

The other way you could look at it is that the Ways themselves were created with a taint, because of saidin. So the odour is a part of the room, because it was buiilt with tainted instruments, the taint was passed on. In this case, even if it was cleansed, the basic taint would still be there.

 

Don't know if I explained properly. Basically, was the Taint an invasive force, that got into the ways through exposure? Or is it the Ways themselves that were Tainted because they were created with Saidin.

 

Is the egg(MS) rotten because it was exposed to disease(Taint), or because the "chicken"(Ways) was diseased in the first place?

 

Of course in the second case, one would presume to destroy MS, it would cleanse the Ways of ALL taints anyway. Or perhaps you would also have to re-build the ways untainted.

[Vardar]

An interesting question I think hasn't been answered as of yet: since Machin Shin was created by the taint, and the taint is gone, is it possible to cleanse the Ways now? As far as I know nobody on the Light side has been into the Ways since Perrin and Faile went to the Two Rivers. Loial and Manfor locked all the Waygates, but I doubt they actually went into the Ways.

 

It's also interesting that the massive horde of 100k+ trollocs that attacked the manor house in Tear came through the Ways, but from what we know of the Ways that many trollocs would've attracted Machin Shin like a starving dog attacking a leg of lamb. So what's the deal? Either someone (and I doubt Fain could command that many trollocs so it isn't him) has figured out how to control Machin Shin, or Machin Shin is no longer an issue. I doubt they could've brought that many trollocs in small groups without being noticed. The Waygate is right outside Stedding Shangtai and I'm pretty sure someone would've noticed a huge horde of trollocs slowly building up.

 

The second part I can kinda answer:

 

There is a lot of debate on the forums about this, the Manor house is easy to explain, since it was in the middle of nowhere, potentially there were numerous waygates, and portal stones availble for use to teleport those trollocs. Plus they had time to gather a few miles away. The real issue comes with the Calmayne attack. Not only is it one way gate, but it's in a freaking basement, so no idea how a "huge" army would attack from 1 one gate and a small door (Large enough for 2 horses).The general consensous (Which I disregard) is that a forsaken figured out how to control the Black Wind.

[Gristle]

In ToM Fain is using something like MS at will. I wasn't clear on whether it was the original version, or if he's now creating his own version as his evil evolves. Either way, based on that I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that once he was subsumed by Mordeth he could interact with, and possibly command MS.

 

It was much more like Mashadar rather than Machin Shin, to me anyway. I think that power was a distilled version of Mashadar.

 

You're right - I confused the two on this post - sorry about that.

[Shig]

Is it possible that Mashadar and Machin Shin are similar in nature? and therefore possibly similar in there method of being controlled?

 

Looking at both of them the similarities are striking.

 

1) They're both the result of something evil

2) They're both for the most part pretty mindless, they just wish to consume

3) They both appear to have developed because of the evil taint upon something

4) Both are confined to their various areas, Machin Shin to the ways and Mashadar to Shadar Logoth

5) They're both good mates with Fain(not literally, but they are in a way)

 

Maybe thats what Machin Shin recognized, respected and feared when it enveloped fain, Mashadar which could be considered something of a brother from another mother. Furthermore, things of the shadow, which i guess machin Shin can sort of be considered(was caused by the dark ones taint on saidin, even though it noms shadowspawn for the fun of it) fear the evil of shadar logoth, as we were shown early in tEoTW.

 

So, as we've seen fain has control of some form of mashadar, he seems to be leaking mashadar like mist tentacles, maybe he has some conscious or subconscious control over machin shin

[rand4747]

likely MS is stuck in one place wherever is nearest to Rand and so the shadow spawn can freely travel anywhere as long as its not near the closest waygate entrance to Rand. when he moves to a new area it will gradually move to though. so it can still be met in between entrances.

[Byzantine279]

The wind absorbed part of Fain, and that part included his need to find (and presumably kill) Rand.

 

Fain was actually very upset by this, he expected Rand to be right behind him, not to waltz up three months later, so we can assume he did not tell Machin Shin what to do.

[Vardar]

Is it possible that Mashadar and Machin Shin are similar in nature? and therefore possibly similar in there method of being controlled?

 

Looking at both of them the similarities are striking.

 

1) They're both the result of something evil

2) They're both for the most part pretty mindless, they just wish to consume

3) They both appear to have developed because of the evil taint upon something

4) Both are confined to their various areas, Machin Shin to the ways and Mashadar to Shadar Logoth

5) They're both good mates with Fain(not literally, but they are in a way)

 

Maybe thats what Machin Shin recognized, respected and feared when it enveloped fain, Mashadar which could be considered something of a brother from another mother. Furthermore, things of the shadow, which i guess machin Shin can sort of be considered(was caused by the dark ones taint on saidin, even though it noms shadowspawn for the fun of it) fear the evil of shadar logoth, as we were shown early in tEoTW.

 

So, as we've seen fain has control of some form of mashadar, he seems to be leaking mashadar like mist tentacles, maybe he has some conscious or subconscious control over machin shin

 

1) Well, one was made from the evil of man. An evil opposed to the Shadow, which made the other. But still valid point

2) IDK, the Black Wind can talk, whisper at least. And it chases people. Mash will float feet from you and do nothing until you touch it.

3) See 1.

4) Point.

5) Point.

[thisguy]

The wind absorbed part of Fain, and that part included his need to find (and presumably kill) Rand.

 

Fain was actually very upset by this, he expected Rand to be right behind him, not to waltz up three months later, so we can assume he did not tell Machin Shin what to do.

 

Yup. I remember something being said about Machin Shin and Faine being insane. I think they had common ground.