How could that other Power source be felt all of a sudden..?

[Mik]

I've already dropped it here and there over these past years... but well.. I think this deserves it's own thread.

 

Let's go back to the Age of Legends for a few minutes...

 

There's this peaceful society with probably millions of channelers all around the world. Global One Power usage -both quantity and quality- was at it's peak for so long that society was so well organised, peaceful and good that the world had even forgotten the word for war. Considering how long Channelers live, that's probably thousands and thousands of years. Both Lews Therin Telamon and Elan Morin Tedronai had been around for a few hundred years minimum.

 

So... How come that -all of a sudden- another Power source could be sensed...?

What. Changed?

 

I think that it's the actions and choices that Elan Morin made back in the Age of Legends that this strange Power could be sensed.

 

If belief and order give strenght to the Pattern -like Herid Fel deducted- it's only logic that the opposite, namely disbelief and chaos will weaken that Pattern.

If Fel can figure that out, then it's not hard to immagine that 'possibly the foremost philosopher of the pinnacle of civilization' (Elan Morin) who had -say- atleast 300 years or more to figure this out did as well.

 

I think Elan Morin wrote some of those books he wrote during the Age of Legends for a very specific reason; he needed disbelief in creation so it would weaken the Pattern and -deducted as the cold logician he was- at the same time strenghten it's then nameless Dark Counterpart.

It's through his words in books like Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and Disassembly of Reason that a significant portion of the population started believing in the essence of Shai'tan; Nothingness.

And I think that's the reason, I think that's what changed during the AoL why -all of a sudden- that other Power source could be felt.

 

Elan Morin -through his writing and by slowly gaining influence with it- had at a certain point given the Dark Counterpart of Creation just enough of a Power base so that it could be felt by Channelers.

Ofcourse a higly advanced and peaceful society -that suspected nothing and didn't even have a name for war- would investigate and be curious as to what would be possible.

And as soon as the Bore was drilled, I think Elan Morin was the one who -literally- gave himself to what we now name Shai'tan to use at it saw fit.

 

Heart of the Dark (Ba'alzamon) and Soul of the Shadow are more then just titles. (just like "Telamon" -Worlds Heart- is more then just a title)

Elan Morin gave his Soul away to nothingness. Elan Morin is the Betrayer of Hope because of that.

 

All the misery begins (and ends) with him.

 

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

[Shig]

I like it, but i was sort of operating under the assumption that the people of the Age of Legend knew that there was a Dark One, as i thought their 'religion' based on the creator, knew of the creator and him sealing the Dark One away at the moment of creation. It definitely is a difficult question as to how all of a sudden Meirin was able to discern the presence of another power, maybe the Dark one was straining towards the pattern from his prison the way male channelers reach towards Saidin. Although, im pretty sure that we do know that there was human evil before the bore opened, there were a couple of mentions of Semirhage having already gone of the deep end and having become a serious sadist(although it was generally unknown by the people of the time).

 

Another question, why is it that where Shayol Ghul(forgive the spelling) is now, which is a thinness in the pattern, in the age of legend before the bore was opened the place was a holiday area or something along those lines. When we saw(through rand's ancestors eyes) the bore being made when meirin and beidomon attempted to tap the power, it was at the Collam Daan, the greatest university on the planet. I for one think the idea of the university being on a tropical island seems a little odd and out of place...so did the dark one, when he was able to influence the pattern, just decide on a nice and picturesque place to make his haunt...or was the university situated on a tropical island?

[TristanWebb]

No, the bore isn't a location. It just happens that there is a thinness in the pattern at a place that used to be a holiday destination. There might of been some influence on the part of the Shadow to make it in a reasonably accessable place, but not needed.

[thisguy]

I don't know the answer to your question but why is a university on a tropical island strange? Hawaii, New Zealand both have universities and are tropical islands. I'm sure they're more.

[Orderofolde]

I think the question should be more along the lines of WHY were they searching for another power source? RJ identified that the One Power is finite, it can be used up, but it is replenished. It took Rand and Nyneave hours and hours of channeling through the Chodan Kal Sa'angreals before this could be accomplished, fidning the one point that the power was used up beyond the point of replenishment to ensure all the taint was sucked and filtered out of the source. However, in the AOL, we have great machines, gateways, possibly a hundred thousand people channeling at greater power than modern day randland. We have potentially hundreds of thousands of Ter'angreal using the power in the hands of people who can't channel running machines and farm equipment, accessing their jolly bearded man ipods...think brownouts. There wasn't enough of either the male or the female source. Wells were used for storage, like batteries. Stored when they could get it, used when they needed it. Imagine all the many weaves tied off, controlling the weather, interior room temperature, a myriad of things. Like our own society, we too quest for newer, cleaner, more powerful sources of energy to meet growing demands. We have universities all over hosting research projects into fission and cold fusion and antimatter, and things too scary to even tell us about yet like fantastical zero point energy and harnessing a black hole. Pretty scifi but so was the thought of nuclear energy fifty years ago. New technology allows the means of developing things only theorized previously. I think RJ captured all of the world's greatest achievements like Ann Landers, space travel, our thoughts on parallel dimensions, some of our greatest social and technological achievements such as flutter-wings (hellicopters from his Nam days) and jocars (planes.)

 

By the peak of the AOL, I think that here and there channelers began to notice a feel to the One Power that something wasn't right, that it seemed diminished or perhaps it had even failed a time or two, or maybe it was just basic human nature to go poking noses into new areas. Or you can just chalk it up the the fates of every life and every action meant to be repeated, spun out again and again and again with humans unable to change their destiny in any really large way.

[TristanWebb]

New Zealand isn't tropical at all, it isn't even subtropical. SG is in the north, so it would be well outside the tropics as well. Tropical has a specific meaning (being inside the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, the furthest points from the equator where the sun is still directly overhead).

[Mik]

I like it, but i was sort of operating under the assumption that the people of the Age of Legend knew that there was a Dark One, as i thought their 'religion' based on the creator, knew of the creator and him sealing the Dark One away at the moment of creation.

Thanks. But the AoL people didn't know: "During the Age of Legends, no one knew of the Dark One or felt his touch."

I think Elan Morin figured it out with him being the cold logician & foremost philosopher of his time. And he acted on that knowledge by writing those books that had a great number of people question the meaning and reason of existence.

Elan Morin his books boosted the number of people that 'disbelieved the sense of creation' greatly, because he was so influential in several fields.

 

It definitely is a difficult question as to how all of a sudden Meirin was able to discern the presence of another power, maybe the Dark one was straining towards the pattern from his prison the way male channelers reach towards Saidin.

If He could have done this in the thousands of years prior to Lews Therin being around and prior to Elan Morin writing those books about the absence of meaning, why didn't He do so? There were literally millions of Channelers around to feel this new Power source if it had been there and yet noone ever did. Lews Therin -vital to have around- was around for several hundred years.

 

We know with certainty that the new Power source had been a recent discovery. Even if ‘recently’ in this case would mean ‘twenty years’, it could still be considered ‘recent’ if you look at the scope and duration of that Age. Considering what we know about the discovery of that ‘other power source’, we can say with certainty that it wasn’t even known for twenty years, but days or months is more likely;

 

Today was his twenty-fifth naming day, and tonight he intended to accept Nalla’s latest offer of marriage. He wondered if she would be surprised; he had been putting her off for a year, not wanting to settle down. It would mean changing his service to Zorelle Sedai, whom Nalla served, but Mierin Sedai had already given her blessing. …/ /…

 

Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. …/ /…

And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time—the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today.

(TSR, Chapter 26 – The Dedicated)

 

The Above thoughts come from the Da’shain Charn who is in direct service of Mierin. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Mierin was lying about her discovering this new source of Power to her servant and the way Charn thinks about it, indicates Mierin had told about it in his presence.

To me, it always came across that the actual discovery of that new Power source and the experiment of tapping it (the drilling of the Bore) is just days apart, a few WoT-weeks at best.

But even the longest possible time-span between Tapping and discovery is –say- 12 WoT-years;

Charn is 25 years old. Both the timing of the marriage proposals and the 25^th naming day indicate this isn’t some absurd assumption (In fact, this might be the reason why RJ sneaked this info in). It’s not like Mierin could have told Charn about this when he was 12 years old. That’s assuming Charn was already was ‘in her service’ then.

 

Although, im pretty sure that we do know that there was human evil before the bore opened, there were a couple of mentions of Semirhage having already gone of the deep end and having become a serious sadist (although it was generally unknown by the people of the time).

There was 'human evil'..true. But it was on a very small scale. There was no chaos or riots and even the word for war was lost to all but scolars. The evil done might have given Shai'tan a trickle of power but it wasn't nearly enough to be sensed.

 

Another question, why is it that where Shayol Ghul(forgive the spelling) is now, which is a thinness in the pattern, in the age of legend before the bore was opened the place was a holiday area or something along those lines. When we saw(through rand's ancestors eyes) the bore being made when meirin and beidomon attempted to tap the power, it was at the Collam Daan, the greatest university on the planet. I for one think the idea of the university being on a tropical island seems a little odd and out of place...so did the dark one, when he was able to influence the pattern, just decide on a nice and picturesque place to make his haunt...or was the university situated on a tropical island?

The Collam Daan (and thus the Sharom) weren't on the island where we find Shayol Ghul these days. The Sharom (@ the Collam Daan in the city V'saine) was the place where the experiment was conducted to Bore through the 'thin spot in the Pattern'.

 

It's the thin place in the Pattern that is most probably tied to the that island -the specific location of Shayol Ghul-, but the Collam Daan wasn't there. I think we'll learn late in AMoL that Lews Therin was born on that island (or maaaaybe Elan Morin). I think the 'thin place' is the place in the Pattern where the Dragon Soul was woven into the Pattern when he was spun out as Lews therin. I believe it's the Dragon Soul that binds the seed of Chaos and that's why the Dragon is always around to confront the Shadow when it is freed; the Dragon Soul being spun out and woven into the Pattern is one of the key ingredients. That is how I envision the Creator bound Shai'tan away; by sealing it in -or attach it to- the strongest, purest Soul that could be made.

 

No, the bore isn't a location. It just happens that there is a thinness in the pattern at a place that used to be a holiday destination.

Exactly.

 

I think the question should be more along the lines of WHY were they searching for another power source?

Human curiousity, always pushing the bounderies of what's possible. It's how civilizations like our Real World and the AoL are made in the first place; exploration of possibilities and being curious. It's what drives science and progress. Sometimes that blessed curiousity of ours becomes a curse when taken too far.

Drilling a hole to a place outside Creation should have rung some alarm bells probably, but Mierin was always the kind of person to be looking for more power and when she felt this new power source, she jumped at the chance of tapping it.

[Morden]

They were searching for a power source which could be touched by both male and female... thats what made TP such an allure I think,

[Vardar]

I think the question should be more along the lines of WHY were they searching for another power source? RJ identified that the One Power is finite, it can be used up, but it is replenished. It took Rand and Nyneave hours and hours of channeling through the Chodan Kal Sa'angreals before this could be accomplished, fidning the one point that the power was used up beyond the point of replenishment to ensure all the taint was sucked and filtered out of the source.

 

Where did you get those two tidbits of information? I never got the whole, they used up all the male power in the pool, I just got they managed to strain all the tain away, which was a layer in itself. I'm guessing theres a quote calling the source finite? I've never seen it.

 

So... How come that -all of a sudden- another Power source could be sensed...?

What. Changed?

 

I don't think anything "changed" except they finally discovered it. They were actively looking for it, as their society had peaked, it could not go any further without men and woman working with the same power source. So they began a search to bypass that limitation, and BOOM, discovered.

[Mr Ares]

If belief and order give strenght to the Pattern -like Herid Fel deducted- it's only logic that the opposite, namely disbelief and chaos will weaken that Pattern.

If Fel can figure that out, then it's not hard to immagine that 'possibly the foremost philosopher of the pinnacle of civilization' (Elan Morin) who had -say- atleast 300 years or more to figure this out did as well.

 

I think Elan Morin wrote some of those books he wrote during the Age of Legends for a very specific reason; he needed disbelief in creation so it would weaken the Pattern and -deducted as the cold logician he was- at the same time strenghten it's then nameless Dark Counterpart.

It's through his words in books like Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and Disassembly of Reason that a significant portion of the population started believing in the essence of Shai'tan; Nothingness.

And I think that's the reason, I think that's what changed during the AoL why -all of a sudden- that other Power source could be felt.

 

Elan Morin -through his writing and by slowly gaining influence with it- had at a certain point given the Dark Counterpart of Creation just enough of a Power base so that it could be felt by Channelers.

 

Heart of the Dark (Ba'alzamon) and Soul of the Shadow are more then just titles. (just like "Telamon" -Worlds Heart- is more then just a title)

The most damning thing about this idea is, of course, that there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Just guesswork. Maybe if belief and order give strength to the Pattern then disbelief and chaos weaken it, and maybe Ishamael figured that out, and maybe he wrote some books which weren't widely read in order to weaken in, and maybe despite not being widely read their influence was enough to cause Mierin and Beidomon to be able to sense Shai'tan. That's a fair few maybes, but nothing solid. Good theories have supporting evidence. Also, it's equally unsupported to say that Telamon means World's Heart - Ba'alzamon is Trolloc tongue, not Old Tongue, and there's no guarantee that amon is even the part that means heart, and the best support for Tel meaning world is its appearance in tel'aran'rhiod - with the same problem, that there's nothing to indicate that part means what you need it to mean.

[Mik]

So... How come that -all of a sudden- another Power source could be sensed...?

What. Changed?

 

I don't think anything "changed" except they finally discovered it. They were actively looking for it, as their society had peaked, it could not go any further without men and woman working with the same power source. So they began a search to bypass that limitation, and BOOM, discovered.

Their society had already peaked for thousands of years. It could not go any further without men and women working with the same power source for thousands of years.

There was a society that forgot about even the word for 'war'. How many generations would that take, you reckon? There were Aes Sedai who could reach the age of 700 years. How long would it take for a society of literally billions of people to forget a word?

 

Are you saying they had just started looking? Or are you saying they had just reached their pinacle of civilization?

The first is highly unlikely considering the number of Channelers and the lenght of the Age up untill that point and the second is wrong, I think.

We're talking about a stable word-wide situation that has been around for a very, very long time.

 

Both female and male Channelers could sense the new Power Source.

What are the odds of that Power Source being around the way it was found for thousands of years without any of the millions of Channelers sensing it?

 

 

Because of the use of the Power in health care, most people did not have to fear dying from disease or injury. The average life expectancy was between one hundred and fifty and two hundred years. For Aes Sedai it was considerably longer, since use of the One Power somehow enhanced the youth and durability of the channeler's body, greatly extending his or her life. There are records of some Aes Sedai being considered barely middle-aged at three hundred years, and some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more.

.../ /...

It is easy to understand why major conflicts among people or classes did not exist in the Age of Legends. Most of the motives for conflict had been eliminated: Worldwide economic stability had been established, removing any possibility of poverty or extreme financial inequality. Food harvesting and distribution was enhanced by the high level of technology and the use of the One Power, eliminating starvation and even deprivation. Status was more important than financial gain, eliminating most types of base greed, if not envy. In addition, the most powerful group of people, the Aes Sedai, were seldom tempted to use their abilities for personal gain alone, because they knew that service to others would reap greater rewards and higher status than any political or financial manipulation ever could.

[Vardar]

So... How come that -all of a sudden- another Power source could be sensed...?

What. Changed?

 

I don't think anything "changed" except they finally discovered it. They were actively looking for it, as their society had peaked, it could not go any further without men and woman working with the same power source. So they began a search to bypass that limitation, and BOOM, discovered.

Their society had already peaked for thousands of years. It could not go any further without men and women working with the same power source for thousands of years.

There was a society that forgot about even the word for 'war'. How many generations would that take, you reckon? There were Aes Sedai who could reach the age of 700 years. How long would it take for a society of literally billions of people to forget a word?

 

Are you saying they had just started looking? Or are you saying they had just reached their pinacle of civilization?

The first is highly unlikely considering the number of Channelers and the lenght of the Age up untill that point and the second is wrong, I think.

We're talking about a stable word-wide situation that has been around for a very, very long time.

 

Both female and male Channelers could sense the new Power Source.

What are the odds of that Power Source being around the way it was found for thousands of years without any of the millions of Channelers sensing it?

 

 

 

Because of the use of the Power in health care, most people did not have to fear dying from disease or injury. The average life expectancy was between one hundred and fifty and two hundred years. For Aes Sedai it was considerably longer, since use of the One Power somehow enhanced the youth and durability of the channeler's body, greatly extending his or her life. There are records of some Aes Sedai being considered barely middle-aged at three hundred years, and some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more.

.../ /...

 

It is easy to understand why major conflicts among people or classes did not exist in the Age of Legends. Most of the motives for conflict had been eliminated: Worldwide economic stability had been established, removing any possibility of poverty or extreme financial inequality. Food harvesting and distribution was enhanced by the high level of technology and the use of the One Power, eliminating starvation and even deprivation. Status was more important than financial gain, eliminating most types of base greed, if not envy. In addition, the most powerful group of people, the Aes Sedai, were seldom tempted to use their abilities for personal gain alone, because they knew that service to others would reap greater rewards and higher status than any political or financial manipulation ever could.

 

 

 

We don't know how long it took them to be able to sense it. From your text, it appears they suddenly knew it was there. Wake up in the morning, MY GOD, A NEW POWER SOURCE!

 

No, they had research teams out and about and one of them discovered it. Who knows how long that process takes?

 

As to the forgot the word war, I always assumed they were being ficticious, as in, they knew very well what the word meant, it just wasn't used very often outside of history. They said Historians knew the word.

[TristanWebb]

One of the female forsaken (Graendal I think? MIght of been Moghedian) was passed over for a research position but told she could still teach. Research into everything was going on through the AoL, it likely that they found the prison just due to some unguided research into the nature of the Pattern or something.

[Vardar]

One of the female forsaken (Graendal I think? MIght of been Moghedian) was passed over for a research position but told she could still teach. Research into everything was going on through the AoL, it likely that they found the prison just due to some unguided research into the nature of the Pattern or something.

 

They said they were actively searching for a new power source.

 

But again, where did the finite quote come from? Any clues?

[Mik]

The most damning thing about this idea is, of course, that there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Just guesswork.

Well hello there, kind sir! Let's sift through your subtleties again, shall we?

 

Maybe if belief and order give strength to the Pattern then disbelief and chaos weaken it,....

Pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported?

It's solid logic based on three well-established facts actually;

1 - RJ himself called Shai'tan the 'dark counterpart' of Creation. I could grab that quote easily but I'm pretty sure you've seen it.

2 - We've seen Chaos mentioned -and work- in the Shadow's advantage throughout the books. Even the BWB starts mentioning chaos welling up up the moment Shai'tans prison is pierced.

3 - We have Herid Fel -a philosopher, how nice!- mentioning "Belief and Order give strenght" while he's actually researching how to deal with the Shadow properly.

 

You can hardly call combining facts 1, 2 & 3 'pure and utter guesswork absolutely not supported'.

Chaos gives strenght to Shai'tan and weakens the Pattern. That fits with that Fel wrote about Order giving strenght to Rand's cause. That in turn lends credibility to Fel's assesment that Belief gives strenght to Rand's cause as well. And simple logic -combined with the fact that we've seen fact 1 literally play out here- lends credit that Disbelief strenghtens the Shadow.

 

Coincidently, Elan Morin -also a well known, well respected philosopher of his time (a well known fact again, I might add!)- wrote some books that -given it's titles- try to tell the readers of those books that Reason and Meanig are absent or folly.

Tying those together is a decent theory and not guesswork.

 

and maybe Ishamael figured that out,...

Not a big if; Elan Morin was (one of the if not the) foremost philosopher of the pinacle of civilization! He's had hundreds of years to figure this out. Herid Fel only had a few years. He wasn't too far from the truth, wouldn't you agree?

 

...and maybe he wrote some books..

Fact. There's no maybe. Elan Morin did write some books and the topics mentioned fit nicely with what I wrote above.

His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts.

 

...which weren't widely read in order to weaken in,..

Wrong. Just because they were to hard to understand for wide polularity, does in no way mean they weren't widely read. In fact, the text literally states his books were "extremely influential in many areas". Again, with a world-wide society of billions, that means loads of readers he had an extreme influence on.

 

and maybe ... their influence was enough to cause Mierin and Beidomon to be able to sense Shai'tan..

Ok. So this bit is speculation. I don't see the problem of all the reasoning above leads to this, considering there had been millions of Channelers for thousands of years. *shrugs* Fine. It's a theory. Sue me.

 

That's a fair few maybes, but nothing solid. Good theories have supporting evidence.

^.

 

Also, it's equally unsupported to say that Telamon means World's Heart...

Well... considering the Dragon is the Champion of Light, we have the Eye of the World and everything revolves around him and there's even loads of references that state 'He is at the heart of it', I'd hardly call it unsupported. But whatever floats your warship, self proclaimed god of war. Tel'amon.

What. A. Big. Leap. Of. Faith. that was! Wow! ;)

 

- Ba'alzamon is Trolloc tongue, not Old Tongue,...

Wierd, for all the crappy, gutteral nonsence we hear them shout. I believe Rosel of Essam wrote a copy of a piece of paper pre-dating the Breaking that read like High Chant.

“Fascinating, this [torn page]. Rosel of Essam claimed more than a hundred pages survived the Breaking, and she should have known, since she wrote barely two hundred years afterwards, but only this one piece still exists, so far as I know. Perhaps only this very copy. Rosel wrote that it held secrets the world could not face, and she would not speak of them plainly. I have read this page a thousand times, trying to decipher what she meant.”

 

The tiny owl blinked at Egwene again. She tried not to look at it. “What does it say, Verin Sedai?” Verin blinked, very much as the owl had. “What does it say? It is a direct translation, mind, and reads almost like a bard reciting in High Chant. Listen. ‘Heart of the Dark. Ba’alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is—’ ” She stopped with a sigh. “It ends there. What do you make of it?” (TDR, Chapter 21 - A World of Dreams)

It's totally unsupported to think that something that reads as high chant that translates Ishamael (not really a Trolloc word, right) in the same way as Ba'alzamon is Old Tongue? I'd say that's actually just common sense there. You might just want to compare "Ba'alzamon" with "Narg" for a sec and see how those roll of the tongue.

The Trollocs might very well be given this name to use for the Soul of Shadow during the WoS. I'd say it's not so far fetched as you make it out to be.

 

and there's no guarantee that amon is even the part that means heart, and the best support for Tel meaning world is its appearance in tel'aran'rhiod - with the same problem, that there's nothing to indicate that part means what you need it to mean.

Yeah. In a word three parts long Tel'aran'rhiod that directly translated to World of Dreams it's a huge leap to suggest Tel might mean World. Pffff.

Using statistics only the odds are a rough 33% that I'm right. How's that merely totally unsupported wild speculation as you so eloquently stated?

 

Ba'alzamon is the Heart of the Dark.

The Dragon is at the center of the storm. The Eye of the storm if you will. Unblinded, the Dragon sees the whole world through his mind's eye!

What a big leap to say the Dragon is the Heart of the World and that Telamon means exactly that.

(Not)

[TristanWebb]

The finite quote is from an interview, check Theoryland and you can find it. It is finite but infinitely reusable.

 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=242

 

Number 12 there is the quote.

[Suttree]

One of the female forsaken (Graendal I think? MIght of been Moghedian) was passed over for a research position but told she could still teach. Research into everything was going on through the AoL, it likely that they found the prison just due to some unguided research into the nature of the Pattern or something.

 

They said they were actively searching for a new power source.

 

But again, where did the finite quote come from? Any clues?

 

The finite quote is correct with a catch. The previous poster was incorrect though in relation to how the taint was cleansed. The power was not at the point of being used up.

[Vardar]

 

He sat and thought for a minute, still signing the book, pondered, then answered.

The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. The way he put is was finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Makes no sense to me,but it's his series.

 

Cause then how did standing flows work? Or tied off weaves.

 

Thanks for the linkage btw.

[Mik]

 

He sat and thought for a minute, still signing the book, pondered, then answered.

The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. The way he put is was finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Makes no sense to me,but it's his series.

 

Cause then how did standing flows work? Or tied off weaves.

.

Perhaps much in the same way that you could view matter in our universe to be finite. It's billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each galaxy. Say you could channel all matter to earth much in the same way you could channel the One Power in WoT. There's no way we would be able to use all the matter present in our current universe on earth. Maybe the One Power works in much the same way. I understand the problem you're presenting, but even a finite amount of Power that recycles without entropy can be viewed as infinite for practical use.

[Vardar]

 

He sat and thought for a minute, still signing the book, pondered, then answered.

The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. The way he put is was finite but infinitely reusable.

 

Makes no sense to me,but it's his series.

 

Cause then how did standing flows work? Or tied off weaves.

.

Perhaps much in the same way that you could view matter in our universe to be finite. It's billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each galaxy. Say you could channel all matter to earth much in the same way you could channel the One Power in WoT. There's no way we would be able to use all the matter present in our current universe on earth. Maybe the One Power works in much the same way. I understand the problem you're presenting, but even a finite amount of Power that recycles without entropy can be viewed as infinite for practical use.

 

New matter is being created though. The universe it inself is called infinite yet it is expanding, which means it can't be infinite. I guess when I hear finite, it means it should be able to be all used up. Just like I don't get how the "Pool of souls" is finite, yet can't be all used up. It's, well not quite an oxymoron, but makes no sense. Either something can be used all up, or it can't.

[Agitel]

I don't know the answer to your question but why is a university on a tropical island strange? Hawaii, New Zealand both have universities and are tropical islands. I'm sure they're more.

 

It's a common misconception that V'sain was a tropical island. It's not. It's called an "idyllic island in a cool sea". You don't find tropical islands in cool seas. It was far to the north. V'sain was where Shayol Ghul is now. It was not transplanted during the Breaking.

 

As for the other half of the source eventually being sensed, it has to do with research. There was a very scientific approach to the One Power in the Age of Legends, with new experiments and theories being tested all the time, using the OP to manipulate physics. It wasn't sensed before because they basically hadn't achieved the scientific advancements necessary to test or notice such things. They were using experiments to look at the fabric of the Pattern itself, to even step outside the Pattern. No doubt they were wondering what was out there.

[Mik]

The universe it inself is called infinite yet it is expanding, which means it can't be infinite.

Look, we don't know for sure if the size is finite or infinite. Simply because we're limited in our view of the 'borders' of the universe by the speed of light. But that's actually very much besides the point, so let's just drop that one. :)

 

I guess when I hear finite, it means it should be able to be all used up.

You try drinking all the water in all the oceans and rivers on earth. Since it's a finite amount of water you say you could, but since you're only using so little compared to the (finite) amount available to you, you'll never-ever use it all up. Now substitie 'you' for 'all Channelers / weaves in existence' and susbtitute 'ocean' for 'True Source'. Et voila; a finite amount of Power -that even is reusable without entropy- that will act for all purposes as an infinite amount of Power. Channeling can only use so much...compare the total amount of it to you drinking from the ocean.

 

Just like I don't get how the "Pool of souls" is finite, yet can't be all used up.

Again, think drops of water from all the water on earth. Or a grain of sand from all the deserts on earth. They are finite, but for all purposes -and the number of souls living that can be supported on earth, the desert and ocean might as well be called infinite, since the grains of sand and drops of water return to the soul-pool.

 

It's, well not quite an oxymoron, but makes no sense. Either something can be used all up, or it can't.

It all depends on how much you can actually use of the finite amount at any given time. If at no point in time you can use it all simultaniously and it constantly recycles without entropy -like it does-, you could call it infinite.

[Lisa Campbell]

Vards I don't get what you mean that an infinite universe that is expanding can't be infinite.

 

My meaning of infinite means never ending. So if infinity grows/expands, it is just fulfilling it's potential for never ending-ness.

[Vardar]

You try drinking all the water in all the oceans and rivers on earth. Since it's a finite amount of water you say you could, but since you're only using so little compared to the (finite) amount available to you, you'll never-ever use it all up. Now substitie 'you' for 'all Channelers / weaves in existence' and susbtitute 'ocean' for 'True Source'. Et voila; a finite amount of Power -that even is reusable without entropy- that will act for all purposes as an infinite amount of Power. Channeling can only use so much...compare the total amount of it to you drinking from the ocean.

 

Who said anything about drinking? Now could we suck up all the water in the world and dispose of it? Yes, yes we could, in theory.

 

Vards I don't get what you mean that an infinite universe that is expanding can't be infinite.

 

My meaning of infinite means never ending. So if infinity grows/expands, it is just fulfilling it's potential for never ending-ness.

 

Well, if it's infinite, that means it's never ending, if it's expanding, that means it's pushing it's boundries further, if it has boundries, then it has an ending. Hence my confusion.

 

 

Again, think drops of water from all the water on earth. Or a grain of sand from all the deserts on earth. They are finite, but for all purposes -and the number of souls living that can be supported on earth, the desert and ocean might as well be called infinite, since the grains of sand and drops of water return to the soul-pool.

 

I guess it comes down to the words can and will. Will the pool ever be used up? Probably not I mean people would have to get frisky for a long long long time. Can it? Well if there are a limited number of souls, then in theory yes it could.

 

Same applies, in my mind, for the source. If you dedicate enough resources and time to building massive Choden Khal, and get enough channelers using them and other angreal all at once, in theory you should be bale ot use it all up.

[Lisa Campbell]

Well, if it's infinite, that means it's never ending, if it's expanding, that means it's pushing it's boundries further, if it has boundries, then it has an ending. Hence my confusion.

 

Do you really think that never ending has boundaries Vards?