The hunt leaves from Fal Dara.....

[Mik]

Most likely secrecy , I should re-read the passage but most of the Aes Sedai where not inform of the nature of the hunt .

Verrin went thought

 

Yeah people can't forget Moir and Siuan had no idea who was BA at this point. They had been forced underground by their plan long ago with all the Amrylin killings around the time of Gitara's foretelling.

There's the Black Ajah, yeah. But Siuan & Moiraine think every other Aes Sedai is a threat to both them and the Dragon Reborn at that point. Moiraine even goes a step further then Siuan; she doesn't want any Aes Sedai involvement (leash) for a limited amount of time with the Dragon Reborn. And Siuan agrees after Mo explanes.

 

These are the parts of their discussion I'm referring to before they send Rand & company on their quest to find the Horn:

 

 

The Amyrlin shuddered. “Rand al’Thor. It does not sound like a name to inspire fear and set the world on fire.” She gave another shiver and rubbed her arms briskly, but her eyes suddenly shone with a purposeful light. “If he is the one, then we truly may have time enough. But is he safe here? I have two Red sisters with me, and I can no longer answer for Green or Yellow, either. The Light consume me, I can’t answer for any of them, not with this. Even Verin and Serafelle would leap on him the way they would a scarlet adder in a nursery.”

“He is safe, for the moment.”

 

The Amyrlin waited for her to say more. The silence stretched, until it was plain she would not. Finally the Amyrlin said, “You say our old plan is useless. What do you suggest now?”

“I have purposely let him think I no longer have any interest in him, that he may go where he pleases for all of me.” She raised her hands as the Amyrlin opened her mouth. “It was necessary, Siuan. Rand al’Thor was raised in the Two Rivers, where Manetheren’s stubborn blood flows in every vein, and his own blood is like rock beside clay compared to Manetheren’s. He must be handled gently, or he will bolt in any direction but the one we want.”

.../ /...

 

“Exactly. And he wants to be free from Aes Sedai.” Moiraine gave a small, mirthless smile. “Offered the chance to leave Aes Sedai behind and still stay with his friends a while longer, he should be as eager as Mat.”

“But how is he leaving Aes Sedai behind? Surely you must travel with him. We can’t lose him now, Moiraine.”

“I cannot travel with him.” It is a long way from Fal Dara to Illian, but he has traveled almost as far already. “He must be let off the leash for a time. There is no help for it.

.../ /...

 

The Amyrlin sighed. “It’s risky, Moiraine. Risky. But my father used to say, ‘Girl, if you won’t take a chance, you’ll never win a copper.’ We have plans to make.

Basically, Siu & Mo don't want the chance any Aes Sedai will recognize Rand for what he is, because they don't trust what those Aes Sedai might do. They both feel they'd be stilled for what they did.

Mo (& later Siu agrees) want Rand to be off the (well..hers actually) leash for a time so Rand and the Pattern can duke out Rand proclaiming himself without her meddeling right under his nose (even though she does meddle.. with the dragon banner, for instance).

 

 

The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

[TristanWebb]

Mat never thinks about the portal stones in his PoVs either. So either he has forcefully forgotten it, or most of his betrayals were telling people Rand could channel and getting him gentled.

[Vardar]

Most likely secrecy , I should re-read the passage but most of the Aes Sedai where not inform of the nature of the hunt .

Verrin went thought

 

Yeah people can't forget Moir and Siuan had no idea who was BA at this point. They had been forced underground by their plan long ago with all the Amrylin killings around the time of Gitara's foretelling.

There's the Black Ajah, yeah. But Siuan & Moiraine think every other Aes Sedai is a threat to both them and the Dragon Reborn at that point. Moiraine even goes a step further then Siuan; she doesn't want any Aes Sedai involvement (leash) for a limited amount of time with the Dragon Reborn. And Siuan agrees after Mo explanes.

 

These are the parts of their discussion I'm referring to before they send Rand & company on their quest to find the Horn:

 

 

 

The Amyrlin shuddered. “Rand al’Thor. It does not sound like a name to inspire fear and set the world on fire.” She gave another shiver and rubbed her arms briskly, but her eyes suddenly shone with a purposeful light. “If he is the one, then we truly may have time enough. But is he safe here? I have two Red sisters with me, and I can no longer answer for Green or Yellow, either. The Light consume me, I can’t answer for any of them, not with this. Even Verin and Serafelle would leap on him the way they would a scarlet adder in a nursery.”

“He is safe, for the moment.”

 

The Amyrlin waited for her to say more. The silence stretched, until it was plain she would not. Finally the Amyrlin said, “You say our old plan is useless. What do you suggest now?”

“I have purposely let him think I no longer have any interest in him, that he may go where he pleases for all of me.” She raised her hands as the Amyrlin opened her mouth. “It was necessary, Siuan. Rand al’Thor was raised in the Two Rivers, where Manetheren’s stubborn blood flows in every vein, and his own blood is like rock beside clay compared to Manetheren’s. He must be handled gently, or he will bolt in any direction but the one we want.”

.../ /...

 

“Exactly. And he wants to be free from Aes Sedai.” Moiraine gave a small, mirthless smile. “Offered the chance to leave Aes Sedai behind and still stay with his friends a while longer, he should be as eager as Mat.”

“But how is he leaving Aes Sedai behind? Surely you must travel with him. We can’t lose him now, Moiraine.”

“I cannot travel with him.” It is a long way from Fal Dara to Illian, but he has traveled almost as far already. “He must be let off the leash for a time. There is no help for it.

.../ /...

 

The Amyrlin sighed. “It’s risky, Moiraine. Risky. But my father used to say, ‘Girl, if you won’t take a chance, you’ll never win a copper.’ We have plans to make.

Basically, Siu & Mo don't want the chance any Aes Sedai will recognize Rand for what he is, because they don't trust what those Aes Sedai might do. They both feel they'd be stilled for what they did.

Mo (& later Siu agrees) want Rand to be off the (well..hers actually) leash for a time so Rand and the Pattern can duke out Rand proclaiming himself without her meddeling right under his nose (even though she does meddle.. with the dragon banner, for instance).

 

 

The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

 

It was said. Either in that book, or the next. That being said, the Hereos only followed the dragon banner because Rand and it were there. If the banner wasn't with Rand, they wouldn't have had to follow it. Also, Mat had to sound them into battle. They follow the banner, because it was there, but Mat played the way.

[bcspeer]

So say the Horn was found during the Trolloc Wars, if the Trollocs found it and blew it, would the Heroes fight for the Shadow because they would have to follow the Hornsounder and neither the Dragon or his banner are there

[Lisa Campbell]

On a different tack, if a DF blew the horn and Rand and Banner were there, could the Heroes fight for the Light even though the Dark summoned them?

[Zorlon]

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

You're completely mistaken about how this works.

 

Quoth Robert Jordan(thank you Theoryland)

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

 

Regarding That Whole Thing About the Horn—Hawkwing vs. Moiraine

Question: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

Robert Jordan

 

*Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it.

Pam Basham

 

(I took this to imply that Moiraine was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)

Robert Jordan

 

However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." [exact quote]

Pam Basham

 

 

(I started to get confused at this point. Is Moiraine right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?)

Question: Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

Robert Jordan

 

"Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." [1]

Pam Basham

 

(This elicited a pronounced Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me—"A WHAT?!?"—but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean something entirely different.)

So, it's far more complicated than you took it for.

 

And going back to the question of Mat betraying Rand, once again, why would Harriet care that he let that slip if it's _not_ a thing that's gonna happen?

 

But, again, it could just as easily be Heroes of the Horn against a turned Rand.

 

And that would have a certain poetry. When could the light more desperetly be seeking salvation than when they see the Dragon fighting for the Shadow?

[Vardar]

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

You're completely mistaken about how this works.

 

Quoth Robert Jordan(thank you Theoryland)

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

 

Regarding That Whole Thing About the Horn—Hawkwing vs. Moiraine

Question: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

Robert Jordan

 

*Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it.

Pam Basham

 

(I took this to imply that Moiraine was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)

Robert Jordan

 

However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." [exact quote]

Pam Basham

 

 

(I started to get confused at this point. Is Moiraine right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?)

Question: Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

Robert Jordan

 

"Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." [1]

Pam Basham

 

(This elicited a pronounced Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me—"A WHAT?!?"—but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean something entirely different.)

So, it's far more complicated than you took it for.

 

And going back to the question of Mat betraying Rand, once again, why would Harriet care that he let that slip if it's _not_ a thing that's gonna happen?

 

But, again, it could just as easily be Heroes of the Horn against a turned Rand.

 

And that would have a certain poetry. When could the light more desperetly be seeking salvation than when they see the Dragon fighting for the Shadow?

 

Who's Kevin? It may just be her saying, A WHAT?!?!

[Mik]

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

You're completely mistaken about how this works.

No, I'm not. Reread TGH. That's exactly how it played out.

 

Hawkwing took orders from the Dragon, said how the 'Wheel was like halters around the Heroes necks'. It actually showed the Wheel had influence on our Heroes, because before the Heroes could move to do as the Dragon asked them, the dragon banner -as mentioned in the prophesy & like hawkwing directly asked for when he felt something still held him- had to lead them into battle, so the young lad with the red hair could be proclaimed as being the Dragon. Nowhere was the Hornsounder consulted/ needed.

 

This is directly from what RJ wrote back in TGH.

 

And yes... Mat "controls" the Heroes, because now that he sounded the Horn Mat gets to decide where, when and if the Heroes show up again! Immagine if a Darkfriend had that power.

That still doesn't mean there can't be 'presepts stronger then Law' that mean that the Dragon points where the Heroes punch (as we've seen happening right before our eyes in TGH).... or that the Wheel itself through prophesy -as we've read literally happening in TGH- having a say about how and if the Heroes do battle.

 

You seem to suggest through that quoted text that the Hornsounder -regardless who that is- gets total control over the Heroes.

But you're wrong because -from that same quote- why else would there be a rift in the Pattern if Horn & Dragon (including banner if it's still needed) were on opposing sides / different places if the Hornsounder gets to say how/ where/ who to fight?

With a Hornsounder in full control, there wouldn;'t be a rift..

 

(and I've read those quotes years ago)

[Zorlon]

you seem to suggest through that quoted text that the Hornsounder -regardless who that is- gets total control over the Heroes.

But you're wrong because -from that same quote- why else would there be a rift in the Pattern if Horn & Dragon (including banner if it's still needed) were on opposing sides / different places if the Hornsounder gets to say how/ where/ who to fight?

With a Hornsounder in full control, there wouldn;'t be a rift..

 

(and I've read those quotes years ago)

I think you're missing my point.

 

And your question works both ways, why would there be a rift if the Dragon was in full control?

 

RJ said the sounder has control over them. That doesn't mean the Dragon doesn't also have control.

 

What better explanation for Hornsounder and Dragon being at odds resulting in a rift other than both of them having control and pushing the heroes in opposite directions?

[Mik]

On a different tack, if a DF blew the horn and Rand and Banner were there, could the Heroes fight for the Light even though the Dark summoned them?

And to answer this question:

 

When summoned, the Heroes fight on the side where it will most serve the Pattern in the long run. Because that's why they exist as Heroes;

"The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern"

"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon"

 

It's -exactly- as Hawkwing states. They show up where and when the Horn of Valere calls them.

And in this case, because that served the purpose of the Pattern, the Heroes must follow the Dragonbanner & the Dragon to fullfill a foretelling.

They are even held back when not all requirements of that foretelling are met to charge into battle. (the banner needed to fly to proclaim the red-headed boy was actually the Dragon)

 

It's safe to say -in this Age, when Shai'tan can touch the Pattern- that when a Darkfriend sounds the Horn of Valere with the Dragon present, a hundred times out of a hundred times the Pattern will be better of with the Heroes fighting for the Light.

And so the Heroes will follow the Dragon.

Other Ages, I'm not sure about...

 

 

you seem to suggest through that quoted text that the Hornsounder -regardless who that is- gets total control over the Heroes.

But you're wrong because -from that same quote- why else would there be a rift in the Pattern if Horn & Dragon (including banner if it's still needed) were on opposing sides / different places if the Hornsounder gets to say how/ where/ who to fight?

With a Hornsounder in full control, there wouldn;'t be a rift..

 

(and I've read those quotes years ago)

I think you're missing my point?

 

And your question works both ways, why would there be a rift if the Dragon was in full control?

 

RJ said the sounder has control over them. That doesn't mean the Dragon doesn't also have control.

 

What better explanation for Hornsounder and Dragon being at odds resulting in a rift other than both of them having control and pushing the heroes in opposite directions?

I didn't say that (bolded text). If the Dragon is not the Hornsounder, he doesn't get to decide where, when and if the Heroes show up. That's what I said.

The Heroes serve the Patterns best interest. In this Age -with Shai'tan touching the Pattern- the best interest lies with the Dragon defeating the Shadow.

That's why the Heroes -in this Age- follow the Dragon....and it's therefor they had to wait for the banner, because it was needed to fullfil prophesy.

[Zorlon]

Again, Jordan said "whoever sounds the horn controls the heroes"

 

I consider him a better authority than any reader's interpretation.

[Mik]

Again, Jordan said "whoever sounds the horn controls the heroes"

 

I consider him a better authority than any reader's interpretation.

True, ofcourse.

 

If I decide 'where, when and if' you post. Would you consider that I can control you posting?

I don't have control over what you write were I to say you could post tomorrow at noon.

 

I (Hornsounder) control when, where and if you write.

You (Patterns interest and therefor in this Age most certainly what the Dragon needs) decide what you post.

If You needed to write a post in this section to ensure your existence (as was prophesized) and I would deny that post and/ or make sure you'd be posting on Theoryland.... that'd make a huuuge rift. :)

 

What's written above here fits with TGH and RJ's words I think.

Where is that wrong?

 

And if -like you seem to suggest- that the Hornsounder decides what the Heroes actually do, why didn't they even so much as look at Mat for directions/ commands / whatever at the end of TGH?

I mean... the words in the books are ALSO that better authority. :)

[thisguy]

Most likely secrecy , I should re-read the passage but most of the Aes Sedai where not inform of the nature of the hunt .

Verrin went thought

 

Yeah people can't forget Moir and Siuan had no idea who was BA at this point. They had been forced underground by their plan long ago with all the Amrylin killings around the time of Gitara's foretelling.

There's the Black Ajah, yeah. But Siuan & Moiraine think every other Aes Sedai is a threat to both them and the Dragon Reborn at that point. Moiraine even goes a step further then Siuan; she doesn't want any Aes Sedai involvement (leash) for a limited amount of time with the Dragon Reborn. And Siuan agrees after Mo explanes.

 

These are the parts of their discussion I'm referring to before they send Rand & company on their quest to find the Horn:

 

 

The Amyrlin shuddered. “Rand al’Thor. It does not sound like a name to inspire fear and set the world on fire.” She gave another shiver and rubbed her arms briskly, but her eyes suddenly shone with a purposeful light. “If he is the one, then we truly may have time enough. But is he safe here? I have two Red sisters with me, and I can no longer answer for Green or Yellow, either. The Light consume me, I can’t answer for any of them, not with this. Even Verin and Serafelle would leap on him the way they would a scarlet adder in a nursery.”

“He is safe, for the moment.”

 

The Amyrlin waited for her to say more. The silence stretched, until it was plain she would not. Finally the Amyrlin said, “You say our old plan is useless. What do you suggest now?”

“I have purposely let him think I no longer have any interest in him, that he may go where he pleases for all of me.” She raised her hands as the Amyrlin opened her mouth. “It was necessary, Siuan. Rand al’Thor was raised in the Two Rivers, where Manetheren’s stubborn blood flows in every vein, and his own blood is like rock beside clay compared to Manetheren’s. He must be handled gently, or he will bolt in any direction but the one we want.”

.../ /...

 

“Exactly. And he wants to be free from Aes Sedai.” Moiraine gave a small, mirthless smile. “Offered the chance to leave Aes Sedai behind and still stay with his friends a while longer, he should be as eager as Mat.”

“But how is he leaving Aes Sedai behind? Surely you must travel with him. We can’t lose him now, Moiraine.”

“I cannot travel with him.” It is a long way from Fal Dara to Illian, but he has traveled almost as far already. “He must be let off the leash for a time. There is no help for it.

.../ /...

 

The Amyrlin sighed. “It’s risky, Moiraine. Risky. But my father used to say, ‘Girl, if you won’t take a chance, you’ll never win a copper.’ We have plans to make.

Basically, Siu & Mo don't want the chance any Aes Sedai will recognize Rand for what he is, because they don't trust what those Aes Sedai might do. They both feel they'd be stilled for what they did.

Mo (& later Siu agrees) want Rand to be off the (well..hers actually) leash for a time so Rand and the Pattern can duke out Rand proclaiming himself without her meddeling right under his nose (even though she does meddle.. with the dragon banner, for instance).

 

 

The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

I realize it's slightly off topic, but I think it's still pretty important. We did see that what you state here is not true. Right in the same book actually. Nowhere does it say that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for just anyone blowing the Horn. The Heroes will answer the call of the Horn, regardless who blows it. Meaning that they'll show up when the Horn is blown and the one blowing the Horn will be tied to the Horn.

 

Siuan never flat-out said that whomever blows the Horn gets to decide on what side the Heroes do battle. Or even if they'll fight. That's what Rand makes of it right after Siuan told her about that horn in TGH. And as we've seen at the end of TGH, the Hornsounder (Mat) is totally ignored in what the Heroes take on as their mission. The Heroes realize the moment they are summoned by the Horn, that the Dragon is present and they take commands from him. Maybe because of 'presepts stronger then Law' (as mentioned a few times by some Heroes) or maybe because of prophesy (the will of the Pattern itself), because 'something held Hawkwing untill the dragon banner was flying. The moment Hawkwing wants to execute the orders of the Dragon, he feels held back..and he instantly asks if the Dragon 'has the banner'.... (wich due to Moiraine knowing her prophesy and her meddling...Rand actually does!)

 

The Heroes followed the Dragonbanner into battle -not the Hornsounder- and took their commands directly from the Dragon -not the Hornsounder-.

Nowhere did any of the Heroes say; it's all fine and dandy mr. Dragon that you want to save that girl, but ...well..ya know.... -you- didn't toot that Horn, dear. ;)

They do say that in the second book somewhere, and I think it's Verin who says "I did not know that."

[Zorlon]

Again, Jordan said "whoever sounds the horn controls the heroes"

 

I consider him a better authority than any reader's interpretation.

True, ofcourse.

 

If I decide 'where, when and if' you post. Would you consider that I can control you posting?

I don't have control over what you write were I to say you could post tomorrow at noon.

 

I (Hornsounder) control when, where and if you write.

You (Patterns interest and therefor in this Age most certainly what the Dragon needs) decide what you post.

If You needed to write a post in this section to ensure your existence (as was prophesized) and I would deny that post and/ or make sure you'd be posting on Theoryland.... that'd make a huuuge rift. :)

 

What's written above here fits with TGH and RJ's words I think.

Where is that wrong?

 

And if -like you seem to suggest- that the Hornsounder decides what the Heroes actually do, why didn't they even so much as look at Mat for directions/ commands / whatever at the end of TGH?

I mean... the words in the books are ALSO that better authority. :)

The main reason I don't think your interpretation is correct is what if The Dragon hadn't been there? Would the Heroes have been rudderless?

 

Further, what reason do you have to believe horn not being blown at the right time create a rift in the pattern?

 

Even the Dragon being turned or killed wouldn't, as far as we know, create a rift in the pattern. And variour Jordan interviews strongly imply the Dragon has been killed, or otherwise failed, many times before.

[Vardar]

Again, Jordan said "whoever sounds the horn controls the heroes"

 

I consider him a better authority than any reader's interpretation.

True, ofcourse.

 

If I decide 'where, when and if' you post. Would you consider that I can control you posting?

I don't have control over what you write were I to say you could post tomorrow at noon.

 

I (Hornsounder) control when, where and if you write.

You (Patterns interest and therefor in this Age most certainly what the Dragon needs) decide what you post.

If You needed to write a post in this section to ensure your existence (as was prophesized) and I would deny that post and/ or make sure you'd be posting on Theoryland.... that'd make a huuuge rift. :)

 

What's written above here fits with TGH and RJ's words I think.

Where is that wrong?

 

And if -like you seem to suggest- that the Hornsounder decides what the Heroes actually do, why didn't they even so much as look at Mat for directions/ commands / whatever at the end of TGH?

I mean... the words in the books are ALSO that better authority. :)

 

Actually again, They did look for Mat to decide where to go.

[Mik]

Again, Jordan said "whoever sounds the horn controls the heroes"

 

I consider him a better authority than any reader's interpretation.

True, ofcourse.

 

If I decide 'where, when and if' you post. Would you consider that I can control you posting?

I don't have control over what you write were I to say you could post tomorrow at noon.

 

I (Hornsounder) control when, where and if you write.

You (Patterns interest and therefor in this Age most certainly what the Dragon needs) decide what you post.

If You needed to write a post in this section to ensure your existence (as was prophesized) and I would deny that post and/ or make sure you'd be posting on Theoryland.... that'd make a huuuge rift. :)

 

What's written above here fits with TGH and RJ's words I think.

Where is that wrong?

 

And if -like you seem to suggest- that the Hornsounder decides what the Heroes actually do, why didn't they even so much as look at Mat for directions/ commands / whatever at the end of TGH?

I mean... the words in the books are ALSO that better authority. :)

The main reason I don't think your interpretation is correct is what if The Dragon hadn't been there? Would the Heroes have been rudderless?

I doubt Heroes like Hawkwing -with what they probably know from all their lives and how they spot Rand as the Dragon instantly- could ever be called 'rudderless'. TGH has Hawkwing say that 'the weave of that moment was set'. TGH had Hawkwing state twice that the Wheel spins them out to 'serve the Pattern' times without number. RJ called the Heroes the Patterns 'self correcting mechanisms' when the Pattern deviates too far from what is acceptible. I'd hardly call them "rudderless" -regardless of who's summoned them- when they're all summoned together.

 

So we have them named 'correcting mechanisms' of the Pattern. And the one time they appear on screen we've seen all the Heroes ignore the Hornsounder when taking orders / deciding what to do.

Maybe you're right... but to me it's kind of hard to picture 'all the non-spun-out correcting mechanisms of the Wheel itself' that were 'tied to the Horn and the Wheel because of their heroic deeds' to be able to slaughter all inhabitants of Caemlyn -virtually untouchable because they're not really there in the flesh- just because a Darkfriend blew the Horn, when the one example we have totally ignores the Hornsounder.....

 

What's your opinion? Why don't you tell me what you think happens when a Darkfriend blows the Horn and orders the Heroes to destroy Caemlyn or the White Tower?

You think they would?

 

Further, what reason do you have to believe horn not being blown at the right time create a rift in the pattern?

RJ's quote combined with the fact that I think the Horn mixes T'a'r with the Real World, and thereby making all the Worlds one. Like Birgitte said when they were summoned by the Horn; "Time? We have all of time". I think that's meant literally. Having "all of time" and "a Tar/ Real World mix" is a pretty hefty combination of factors. One of the factors -according to Verin's chat with Egwene in the Tower- that is needed for the Dark One to escape (the paradox about him escaping/ being bound in one world etc...TDR chapter 25 I think).

 

Even the Dragon being turned or killed wouldn't, as far as we know, create a rift in the pattern. And variour Jordan interviews strongly imply the Dragon has been killed, or otherwise failed, many times before.

I didn't come up with a quote earlier that had RJ state someting about a rift in relation to the Horn / Dragon / position.

 

Actually again, They did look for Mat to decide where to go.

Then could you please quote that bit for me?

[Orderofolde]

One thing I've never understood in the books is when the Amyrlin departs for Tar Valon and Ingtar along with Rand, Mat, and Perrin leave to hunt Fain and the horn. The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

 

To me, finding the horn has to be one of the most important things in the story up to this point. Fain and his darkfriends have taken it from Agelmar's strongroom and headed for Carhein. If finding the horn is so important, why don't they send Warders after it? I understand it's important to send Rand, Mat, and Perrin. They are ta'veren and Mat has to have that dagger. Warders are legendary warriors. Why not send a few of them to hunt it down? Or at least 2 or 3 of them along with the party? I'm not saying Ingtar isn't capable, but they have a courtyard of Warders right there ready to leave at the same time. It's not a secret that Ingtar hunts the horn and the darkfriends because the Amyrlin gives them a public send-off. In fact, the only secret is that Rand can channel.

 

Again, you have Green sisters, several Warders there, and it's made to believe that it's super-important that no darkfriend sounds the horn. Even if Siuan and Moiraine are trying to make Rand feel as if he can go and do as he wishes, even he would accept the importance of the hunt if Warders were to come along on the trip. If they wanted Rand to feel safe, they could have sent the Warders without the Aes Sedai. Why not send the "best of the best" along with the company to get the horn back and give them the very best chance to succeed?

I'm really, really thinking it has something to do with a vision Moiraine has had. She packed Rand nothing but fancy coats which helped him in Cairhien, and so forth. She and Siuan seem to know what they are about to do to him and regret it somewhat, but it all seems that things must play themselves out, prophecy has to happen. I'm thinking the creator of the Matrix was a WOT fan...

[TristanWebb]

Moiraine knew Mat would sound the Horn. She had a viewing from Min about it. So she knew that he would eventually recover the Horn. Minimizing exposure of the Dragon to people who could gentle him is more important than ensuring something she knew would come to pass did. He needed to be kept away from AS as much as possible, even Warders would tell their AS if they saw Rand channel.

 

Rand was mishandled by AS up until Moiraine started listening to him in tFoH. Alana turned him against AS even more when she bonded him and Cadsuane almost severed him from the Tower completely. If it wasn't for Min he would probably had her exiled long before he did. Sending off after the Horn without AS was the best thing anyone ever did for Dragon-Aes Sedai relations. Even having Egwene as Amyrlin has backfired on them inregards to Rand.

[Suttree]

and Cadsuane almost severed him from the Tower completely.

 

Which manages to ignore the fact that Cads' plan worked. It took a lucky role of the dice towards the end but it worked. The world wouldn't even have a chance at TG without that.

 

Even having Egwene as Amyrlin has backfired on them inregards to Rand.

 

Don't you think it's a bit early to make that call? Especially considering Rand played her and knew exactly what buttons to push in order to get the reaction he did(granted that may be what you are referring to). I would be shocked if the whole "must think of him as Rand because e can be trusted" quote doesn't play a role in AMoL.

[TristanWebb]

Oh, Cads plan worked, but only because Min refused to let Rand send her away. Cads should be on her knees thanking Min instead of treating her like a child.

[Suttree]

Oh, Cads plan worked, but only because Min refused to let Rand send her away. Cads should be on her knees thanking Min instead of treating her like a child.

 

You mean like when she backs her against the AS when figuring out the prophecies in ToM? We see their relationship progress throughout the series and Cads obviously comes to respect her.

[TristanWebb]

That was only after she had been exiled and Min's influence had been reduced. Cadsuane has no idea that her idiotic plan only worked because of Min. She is sitting there thinking she saved the world by treating Rand as just another stupid man, when MIn was working hard the whole time getting him not to just walk away instead of being pushed to the brink of sanity.

[Maleshub]

That was only after she had been exiled and Min's influence had been reduced. Cadsuane has no idea that her idiotic plan only worked because of Min. She is sitting there thinking she saved the world by treating Rand as just another stupid man, when MIn was working hard the whole time getting him not to just walk away instead of being pushed to the brink of sanity.

 

I agree that, initially, Min's viewing kept Rand from neglecting Cadsuane. But she earned her medals when she saved Rand's life in the rebel camp near Cairhien and by her defense of Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing. She also helped capture Semirhage. So, it is not just Min's viewing despite its importance.

[bcspeer]

Cadsuane was probably oblivious to the fact that Min was sorta protecting her. Cadsuane backing her against the other Aes Sedai was because the other Aes Sedai (Beldiene, I think, definitely not the right spelling though) was being somewhat rude to Min and we know Cadsuane is all about manners except when it comes to herself and we found out that Cadsuane thought the same thing after Min explains her discovery. Their relationship has progressed but they are both still wary of each other. We don't really know what their relationship will be like now with the new Rand and both of them have been restored to their old status as Rand's advisors

[TristanWebb]

She earned her place in the reader's eyes sure, but in Rand's? He forced AS who rescued him from a box to swear fealty cause they brought a couple of extra friends. Even in Far Madding you can he he wanted to get rid of her but kept her around because Min said it was important. After that he was more ameniable to keeping her around when she saved him from the cells there but that may be just because he was distancing himself from emotions more and didn't see the point in arguing with her.\

 

Her plan to keep the advice from him so he would want it more was stupid, Rand would of flat out walked away without Min telling him it was important. I'm not saying the advice and guidance weren't important, just that she severly misjudged Rand (just like every other AS in the series) and only managed to succeed because Min was working for her the entire time. And all Cads sees in Min during that whole period was a love sick child.