The hunt leaves from Fal Dara.....

[bigdoug1971]

One thing I've never understood in the books is when the Amyrlin departs for Tar Valon and Ingtar along with Rand, Mat, and Perrin leave to hunt Fain and the horn. The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

 

To me, finding the horn has to be one of the most important things in the story up to this point. Fain and his darkfriends have taken it from Agelmar's strongroom and headed for Carhein. If finding the horn is so important, why don't they send Warders after it? I understand it's important to send Rand, Mat, and Perrin. They are ta'veren and Mat has to have that dagger. Warders are legendary warriors. Why not send a few of them to hunt it down? Or at least 2 or 3 of them along with the party? I'm not saying Ingtar isn't capable, but they have a courtyard of Warders right there ready to leave at the same time. It's not a secret that Ingtar hunts the horn and the darkfriends because the Amyrlin gives them a public send-off. In fact, the only secret is that Rand can channel.

 

Again, you have Green sisters, several Warders there, and it's made to believe that it's super-important that no darkfriend sounds the horn. Even if Siuan and Moiraine are trying to make Rand feel as if he can go and do as he wishes, even he would accept the importance of the hunt if Warders were to come along on the trip. If they wanted Rand to feel safe, they could have sent the Warders without the Aes Sedai. Why not send the "best of the best" along with the company to get the horn back and give them the very best chance to succeed?

[nolirion]

Most likely secrecy , I should re-read the passage but most of the Aes Sedai where not inform of the nature of the hunt .

Verrin went thought

[Suttree]

Most likely secrecy , I should re-read the passage but most of the Aes Sedai where not inform of the nature of the hunt .

Verrin went thought

 

Yeah people can't forget Moir and Siuan had no idea who was BA at this point. They had been forced underground by their plan long ago with all the Amrylin killings around the time of Gitara's foretelling.

[thisguy]

One thing I've never understood in the books is when the Amyrlin departs for Tar Valon and Ingtar along with Rand, Mat, and Perrin leave to hunt Fain and the horn. The Amyrlin tells them before they leave that they must find the horn and keep it from darkfriend hands and explains that whoever blows the horn the heroes will fight for whether they are darkfriends or not. (We've yet to see if this is true or not, but it's beside the point).

 

To me, finding the horn has to be one of the most important things in the story up to this point. Fain and his darkfriends have taken it from Agelmar's strongroom and headed for Carhein. If finding the horn is so important, why don't they send Warders after it? I understand it's important to send Rand, Mat, and Perrin. They are ta'veren and Mat has to have that dagger. Warders are legendary warriors. Why not send a few of them to hunt it down? Or at least 2 or 3 of them along with the party? I'm not saying Ingtar isn't capable, but they have a courtyard of Warders right there ready to leave at the same time. It's not a secret that Ingtar hunts the horn and the darkfriends because the Amyrlin gives them a public send-off. In fact, the only secret is that Rand can channel.

 

Again, you have Green sisters, several Warders there, and it's made to believe that it's super-important that no darkfriend sounds the horn. Even if Siuan and Moiraine are trying to make Rand feel as if he can go and do as he wishes, even he would accept the importance of the hunt if Warders were to come along on the trip. If they wanted Rand to feel safe, they could have sent the Warders without the Aes Sedai. Why not send the "best of the best" along with the company to get the horn back and give them the very best chance to succeed?

It's a good question. Here are a few possible reasons:

1) as you said, they're ta'averen and linked to the horn. But that's still not good enough;

2) others were (Aes sedai and warders) but it doesn't come into the story;

3) I don't know about you, but throughout the book the aes sedai don't seem to trust each other a bit.

[Suttree]

3) I don't know about you, but throughout the book the aes sedai don't seem to trust each other a bit.

 

For good reason with the events surrounding Gitara's foretelling. Ishy had created the BA and had been controlling events for some time at the WT. The BA started murdering the women Tamra Ospenya sent out to look for the DR. They later killed Tamra in her sleep and Chesmal did the same for her predecessor Seirin Vayu. This forced the search for Rand underground and left Moir and Siuan with no other choice but to be extremely secretive in their actions.

[1Brotherbill]

That whole thing about the Amrylin being in Fal Dara is just a bit wrong in my mind. I'm not against the Amrylin doing state visits but bringing all of your cabinet with you kind of odd don't you think. Not to mention the Mistress of Novices as well. Who is training the Novices and Accepted while the entire Tower basically is off in Fal Dara?

 

Verin didn't leave with the hunting party. She broke off from the AS at a later point. Probably giving some lame excuse that she had to go study some bug or bush.

 

Sending Warders would not work with the party as it was. If you sent Warders you would need to not send Ingtar. Sending Warders would make it an AS party and the boys wouldn't be allowed to go. After you assigned the Warders other AS would need to go as well. We have seen how the AS fight and plot for power among there fellow sisters and it would have been a week at best before they sent a party out. Also loosing the horn was kind of a slap in Agelmar's face. For him to not be allowed to go get the horn back would be a dishonor. The Amrylin knows this and that is why she set it up the way she did.

 

It's been proved that the AS don't understand the importance of the Horn anyway. So not sending any AS isn't all that out of the ordinary. If they understood the Horn they would have made sure that the Horn was with the Horn blower. Instead they locked it up in the tower and it might not even be were they locked it up.

 

But that is all standard operating procedure for AS.

 

Fear what you don't know and control it so it can't be used for it's intended purpose.

[Suttree]

It's been proved that the AS don't understand the importance of the Horn anyway.

 

Curious as to what makes you say that?

 

Instead they locked it up in the tower and it might not even be were they locked it up.

 

Do you think the BA stole it somehow? Odds are Mat is going to retrieve it from the WT at some point so I find that highly unlikely.

 

Fear what you don't know and control it so it can't be used for it's intended purpose.

 

Are you making this claim about items of power? Until recently they were the only group capable of dealing with such and it has been shown unequivocally that it is best to take a cautious approach.

[bcspeer]

@1Brotherbill Sheriam didn't go to Fal Dara. She met the Amyrlin when they got back to Tar Valon and met Nynaeve and Egwene after they got off the ship. The Blues that were in Fal Dara were Anaiya and Maigan (tGH near the end of Chapter 4). Only 14 sisters plus Siuan and Leane went to Fal Dara.

[1Brotherbill]

Lets see. AS know who blew the horn. Well a few of them do at least. They know that it needs to be around at the last battle. They don't know when that battle is going to be. Could be today, could be tomorrow, or maybe in a few years. So lets lock it up away from the horn blower and the dragon. Most people knowing the value of the horn would keep it available.

 

Isn't there a part of the books where a Novice meets one of the Forsaken outside of the locked store room where the horn is stored? I always thought that it was the store room where the horn is and that they were going to take it.

 

And the AS have done a poor job of studying the relics from the age of legends. Verin and the dead Dreamer seem to be the only ones that studied relics of note. If someone was hurt while studying a relic they would lock it up with a note that it was dangerous. They don't even know what the Oath Rod is supposed to be used for and they have been using it for thousands of years. Don't even get me started on the Accepted testing rings. Elayne and Avienda have done more in a year and a half of studying relics than the Tower has done in thousands of years. You can't deny that point.

[1Brotherbill]

@1Brotherbill Sheriam didn't go to Fal Dara. She met the Amyrlin when they got back to Tar Valon and met Nynaeve and Egwene after they got off the ship. The Blues that were in Fal Dara were Anaiya and Maigan (tGH near the end of Chapter 4). Only 14 sisters plus Siuan and Leane went to Fal Dara.

 

Who was the AS that Perrin picked up and gently moved out of his way then? I thought that it was Sheriam.

[bcspeer]

It was Leane. tGH chapter 7.

 

As for the Horn of Valere, the only Aes Sedai who knew Mat blew it were Moraine, Siuan, and Verin. We can assume Verin didn't pass on that information and I think Siuan mentioned that she was able to hold it back and Moraine has been 'dead' for half the books. The BA might not even know it has been blown. The Forsaken probably don't have a clue who blew it.

[Maleshub]

Lets see. AS know who blew the horn. Well a few of them do at least. They know that it needs to be around at the last battle. They don't know when that battle is going to be. Could be today, could be tomorrow, or maybe in a few years. So lets lock it up away from the horn blower and the dragon. Most people knowing the value of the horn would keep it available.

 

Isn't there a part of the books where a Novice meets one of the Forsaken outside of the locked store room where the horn is stored? I always thought that it was the store room where the horn is and that they were going to take it.

 

Only Siuan Sanche and Verin Mathewin know that Mat Cauthon is the "hornsounder." And only those two know where the Horn of Valere is stored. It is definitely not stored in the WT's angreal and ter'angreal storage room, because that can be accessed by many Aes Sedai; and Siuan made it clear that only she and Verin need to know where the horn is stored.

[Suttree]

And the AS have done a poor job of studying the relics from the age of legends. Verin and the dead Dreamer seem to be the only ones that studied relics of note. If someone was hurt while studying a relic they would lock it up with a note that it was dangerous. They don't even know what the Oath Rod is supposed to be used for and they have been using it for thousands of years. Don't even get me started on the Accepted testing rings. Elayne and Avienda have done more in a year and a half of studying relics than the Tower has done in thousands of years. You can't deny that point.

 

Not true at all, there is talk of various people studying them most prominently Settale Anan and we saw what that got her. Both her and the dead dreamer are cautionary tales and highlight my point.

 

As for Elayne and Avi one has a talent(Nyn may have a lesser form of it) and Elayne seems to be a unique case who got lessons from a forsaken which was how she got started. You seem to be forgetting that RJ set this in a fallen world. All of that knowledge has been lost and we have various examples of the harm that comes to those who push the experiments too far. Having said that the tide has turned. With those new talents post TG with all the channeling groups joined by the treaty and also hopefully bringing in men as well they will be able to more effectively learn and create.

 

As for the Horn, especially now that traveling has been rediscovered its as safe there as it is anywhere. You are misremembering that scene and it not stored there or stolen. at the time it was put away by Verin there was really nothing else they could have done with it. The whole thing doesn't make a statement either way on their understanding of the object.

[1Brotherbill]

I don't think the horn is going to be used in the next book. If there is some obscure interview given that I haven't seen then so be it. The reason that I don't think it will be used is this. Even though the horn is only a gateway away. I find it difficult for the story to progress to that point. Mat still doesn't trust AS. Mor and Suin are going to have there hands full for a good chunk of the next book. So for Mat to get his hands on the horn will be a 500 page evolution. Anything less will kind of seem cheap.

 

Plus isn't Mat going to betray Rand anyway? So him not getting the horn is a good thing.

 

But with all the loose ends in this story. I have a feeling that this next book will leave most people wanting when it comes to loose ends.

[bcspeer]

How is Mat going to betray Rand? The only thing I can think of is joining Egwene's side at the Merrilor. Mat also said to Joline, I think, that the White Tower had something of his and he plans on coming for it. The only thing that can refer to is the Horn and he could get that by going to Merrilor, finding Siuan and Travelling to the Tower. Also, doesn't the Horn have to be at the last battle? No matter what happens between Mat and Rand, Mat will be at the Last Battle fighting Trollocs and 100+ invincible heroes would be a pretty good asset

[Vardar]

And the AS have done a poor job of studying the relics from the age of legends. Verin and the dead Dreamer seem to be the only ones that studied relics of note. If someone was hurt while studying a relic they would lock it up with a note that it was dangerous. They don't even know what the Oath Rod is supposed to be used for and they have been using it for thousands of years. Don't even get me started on the Accepted testing rings. Elayne and Avienda have done more in a year and a half of studying relics than the Tower has done in thousands of years. You can't deny that point.

 

Not true at all, there is talk of various people studying them most prominently Settale Anan and we saw what that got her. Both her and the dead dreamer are cautionary tales and highlight my point.

 

As for Elayne and Avi one has a talent(Nyn may have a lesser form of it) and Elayne seems to be a unique case who got lessons from a forsaken which was how she got started. You seem to be forgetting that RJ set this in a fallen world. All of that knowledge has been lost and we have various examples of the harm that comes to those who push the experiments too far. Having said that the tide has turned. With those new talents post TG with all the channeling groups joined by the treaty and also hopefully bringing in men as well they will be able to more effectively learn and create.

 

As for the Horn, especially now that traveling has been rediscovered its as safe there as it is anywhere. You are misremembering that scene and it not stored there or stolen. at the time it was put away by Verin there was really nothing else they could have done with it. The whole thing doesn't make a statement either way on their understanding of the object.

 

Just wanted to chime in and say that's something I'd like to see clarified before the book ends. What exactly does she do?!?!

[Vardar]

I don't think the horn is going to be used in the next book. If there is some obscure interview given that I haven't seen then so be it. The reason that I don't think it will be used is this. Even though the horn is only a gateway away. I find it difficult for the story to progress to that point. Mat still doesn't trust AS. Mor and Suin are going to have there hands full for a good chunk of the next book. So for Mat to get his hands on the horn will be a 500 page evolution. Anything less will kind of seem cheap.

 

Plus isn't Mat going to betray Rand anyway? So him not getting the horn is a good thing.

 

But with all the loose ends in this story. I have a feeling that this next book will leave most people wanting when it comes to loose ends.

 

 

 

Mat said he's going to get it.

 

 

Why would you think it's not going to be used? Added that tag just in case, I'm not sure if I need it.

[Sharaman]

By TDR-end and TSR, lots of people know Mat's the hornsounder. First. Moiraine talks about it, in front of Rhuarc and the Supergirls at the end of TDR. Second, a Fade addresses hm as "Hornsounder" in the Stone, which suggests that the Darkside knows in detail. Third, Moggy uses Compulsion on Nyn and Elayne and asks them various questions.

[Zorlon]

How is Mat going to betray Rand? The only thing I can think of is joining Egwene's side at the Merrilor. Mat also said to Joline, I think, that the White Tower had something of his and he plans on coming for it. The only thing that can refer to is the Horn and he could get that by going to Merrilor, finding Siuan and Travelling to the Tower. Also, doesn't the Horn have to be at the last battle? No matter what happens between Mat and Rand, Mat will be at the Last Battle fighting Trollocs and 100+ invincible heroes would be a pretty good asset

I don't think Mat is going to betray Rand, but some things in TGH can be seen as foreshadowing for it.

 

1: Mat's guilt over whatever he did in an alternate reality during the trip through the portal stone, and his remorsefully telling Rand he would never betray him.

 

2: All the hubbub made about "what if the Shadow gets the horn?" And then learning the heroes follow the Dragon Banner or the Dragon.... seems like a good way to set things up for future frackas.

 

Even if Mat does betray Rand I doubt it would be by going over to the Shadow, but by siding with the DotNM in any pre-TG conflict.

 

But I don't see that happening in the story. What would reason would there be to sudennly write Mat so against his established character this late in the story?

[1Brotherbill]

I don't think Mat is going to betray Rand, but some things in TGH can be seen as foreshadowing for it.

 

1: Mat's guilt over whatever he did in an alternate reality during the trip through the portal stone, and his remorsefully telling Rand he would never betray him.

 

2: All the hubbub made about "what if the Shadow gets the horn?" And then learning the heroes follow the Dragon Banner or the Dragon.... seems like a good way to set things up for future frackas.

 

Even if Mat does betray Rand I doubt it would be by going over to the Shadow, but by siding with the DotNM in any pre-TG conflict.

 

But I don't see that happening in the story. What would reason would there be to sudennly write Mat so against his established character this late in the story?

 

The portal stone thing is a difficult thing to base the Mat betraying Rand thing. Because if you look at Rands alternate lives it was clear that every alternate life he choose the wrong path and the DO won in the end. Does that mean that all the lives that Mat saw were of him betraying Rand in the end and that was the wrong path he took? I don't know but it has been hinted about for twenty years that Mat would betray Rand because of that part of the book.

 

If this horn is retrieved and brought to the fight wherever the last battle is fought. Please don't let it be like the Lord of the Rings where the demon army swarmed all over the battle field. Flame was bad enough.

[TristanWebb]

The Book version of LotR the army of the dead is better (they don't actually attack people just scare them so much they run away, and it is all off screen anyway) and since Falme was long before Peter Jackson ruined the greatest fantasy epic ever written I don't think you can say it was in inspiration.

[1Brotherbill]

The Book version of LotR the army of the dead is better (they don't actually attack people just scare them so much they run away, and it is all off screen anyway) and since Falme was long before Peter Jackson ruined the greatest fantasy epic ever written I don't think you can say it was in inspiration.

 

True, but the new book has been written since then. So let us pray to the light that the heroes from the horn are not like a ghostly jelly that flows over the landscape at a high rate of speed.

[Zorlon]

I don't think Mat is going to betray Rand, but some things in TGH can be seen as foreshadowing for it.

 

1: Mat's guilt over whatever he did in an alternate reality during the trip through the portal stone, and his remorsefully telling Rand he would never betray him.

 

2: All the hubbub made about "what if the Shadow gets the horn?" And then learning the heroes follow the Dragon Banner or the Dragon.... seems like a good way to set things up for future frackas.

 

Even if Mat does betray Rand I doubt it would be by going over to the Shadow, but by siding with the DotNM in any pre-TG conflict.

 

But I don't see that happening in the story. What would reason would there be to sudennly write Mat so against his established character this late in the story?

 

The portal stone thing is a difficult thing to base the Mat betraying Rand thing. Because if you look at Rands alternate lives it was clear that every alternate life he choose the wrong path and the DO won in the end. Does that mean that all the lives that Mat saw were of him betraying Rand in the end and that was the wrong path he took? I don't know but it has been hinted about for twenty years that Mat would betray Rand because of that part of the book.

If Rand made the right choices this time, then why not Mat?

 

OTOH, Harriet's reported reaction to Jordan mentioning the horn creating a rift if the Dragon and Horn Sounder are on separate sides implies Jordan gave something away. Why would that matter if it's not a thing that's going to happen?

 

Though, it could just be a consequence Egwene failing to kill Rand before the Myrdraal's nab him in Caemlyn(or however that shared vision of theirs plays out in this life).

 

Good Mat, turned Rand. Might also explain why Rand needs what's her name to help him die.

 

 

If this horn is retrieved and brought to the fight wherever the last battle is fought. Please don't let it be like the Lord of the Rings where the demon army swarmed all over the battle field. Flame was bad enough.

To be honest the hero's battle at Falme more resembled Joshua's battle with Amalekites. When Moses's hands were raised in the air the battle would go in the Hebrew's favor, when Moses tired and lowered them the battle would go towards the Amalekites.

 

When Moses wearied his two companions Aaron and Hur found him a rock to sit on and held up his hands for him.

 

Hmm, two companions necessary for him to find the strength to carry the battle? Is it only co-incidence that is so similar to the vision of the lights, and the way the battle turned at Falme?

[1Brotherbill]

Jordan used more Norse mythology than Christianity. So I always thought the horn brought on Ragnarock. Which means a lot of the main characters are going to die.

 

Why do writers get free passes when they sprinkle in religion in the story and film makers get the criticism.

[TristanWebb]

Because writers usually do it with some depth, film makers have to make it blatant and shallow to keep the movie less than 3 hours. If you had VoG with Rand on a cross instead of dragonmount there would be criticism there too.