Does Lan qualify as a Hero of the Horn?

[Neophyte]

That sequences proves nothing other than that AH was talking to Rand. He makes no comment about the others which is neither a denial nor confirmation. It is entirely possible (and likely IMO) that HoT cannot recognize one another in their new flesh forms and Rand was the exception because he's kind of the boss hero that they needed to follow under his banner.

 

Let me correct myself from earlier. Earlier I said this:

 

 

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

 

He doesn't look at Mat or Perrin. In fact, Mat, Perrin, and Hurin are the only others present. Who is the "them" that Rand could tell if two of the other three were Heroes of the Horn too? None of the other heroes have significant looks for Mat or Perrin or Hurin, or joking remarks - like they do for Rand.

 

 

But Hawkwing didn't say "them." He said "him." The "him" is Mat. Hawkwing says to Rand, "You could tell him [remember, that's Mat], Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh."

 

If Mat is a Hero, why didn't he say to Mat, "You could remember, [insert Mat's Hero name] if you weren't wearing flesh."

 

Let me include the whole passage for clarity. I'll add my own notes in red.

 

Note: Mat has blown the Horn, and the Heroes have just reined up in front of Mat, Perrin, Hurin, and Rand.

Mat gaped at them as they reined in before him and the others. "Is this. . . ? Is this all of you?" [Note: Interesting ... Mat is surprised by how few there are.] They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be. [Yet look - Rand isn't surprised at all] Hurin's mouth hung open; his eyes bulged almost out of his head.

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands. [This line from Hawkwing should be kept firmly in mind]

“Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him [that's Mat, who apparently has no reason to know ... since he's not a Hero of the Horn], Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

[MarkDiLillo]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Hopefully we'll know a little more in January.

[Neophyte]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

[MarkDiLillo]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

 

Do you have a reason? Other than you just dont want them to be HoT?

 

My reason is very simple: there has been zero evidence that they are NOT HoT. We literally will never know the answer unless something in the last book clarifies this for us. The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT. It suggests, but it does not prove anything. Your "evidence" that they are definitely not HoT is "Well AH would have said something if they were." That is even more ridiculous than assuming HoT have some kind of magical ability to recognize their fellow HoT's when they are in a brand new body that nobody has ever seen before with brand new memories. It is very plausible that the only reason they recognized Rand was because of the unique circumstances of the horn being blown and the requirement of following the Dragon under the dragon banner.

 

Please lay out your reasoning that they are not HoT excluding "AH would have said so!!!!".

[Durinax]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

 

Do you have a reason? Other than you just dont want them to be HoT?

 

My reason is very simple: there has been zero evidence that they are NOT HoT. We literally will never know the answer unless something in the last book clarifies this for us. The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT. It suggests, but it does not prove anything. Your "evidence" that they are definitely not HoT is "Well AH would have said something if they were." That is even more ridiculous than assuming HoT have some kind of magical ability to recognize their fellow HoT's when they are in a brand new body that nobody has ever seen before with brand new memories. It is very plausible that the only reason they recognized Rand was because of the unique circumstances of the horn being blown and the requirement of following the Dragon under the dragon banner.

 

Please lay out your reasoning that they are not HoT excluding "AH would have said so!!!!".

I think that they are able to recognize souls when they are in their TAR bound forms. Much like Rand is now able too apparently

[XoMeltdownoX]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

 

Do you have a reason? Other than you just dont want them to be HoT?

 

My reason is very simple: there has been zero evidence that they are NOT HoT. We literally will never know the answer unless something in the last book clarifies this for us. The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT. It suggests, but it does not prove anything. Your "evidence" that they are definitely not HoT is "Well AH would have said something if they were." That is even more ridiculous than assuming HoT have some kind of magical ability to recognize their fellow HoT's when they are in a brand new body that nobody has ever seen before with brand new memories. It is very plausible that the only reason they recognized Rand was because of the unique circumstances of the horn being blown and the requirement of following the Dragon under the dragon banner.

 

Please lay out your reasoning that they are not HoT excluding "AH would have said so!!!!".

Not saying they are or are not, but your statement here is a little wild. Proof is usually required to prove a positive rather than a negative (i.e. you should be required to show evidence for them being HotH, not require somone to show evidence that they are not). Otherwise we could all throw out any ridiculous statement and say its just as probable as a good theory that has evidence.

[MarkDiLillo]

Yes - I agree. Proof is required to show that they are HoT. I am not trying to say that they are definitely HoT. I am just saying that I tend to think that they are while recognizing that the actual answer may go either way if we ever do find out.

 

Neophyte is trying to claim that there is evidence that they are not HoT. I am pointing out that his evidence is not a positive proof that they are not, but merely a lack of confirmation that they are HoT. In other words, the actual answer as to whether or not they are HoT is not answered at all yet.

[Neophyte]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

 

Do you have a reason? Other than you just dont want them to be HoT?

 

My reason is very simple: there has been zero evidence that they are NOT HoT. We literally will never know the answer unless something in the last book clarifies this for us. The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT. It suggests, but it does not prove anything. Your "evidence" that they are definitely not HoT is "Well AH would have said something if they were." That is even more ridiculous than assuming HoT have some kind of magical ability to recognize their fellow HoT's when they are in a brand new body that nobody has ever seen before with brand new memories. It is very plausible that the only reason they recognized Rand was because of the unique circumstances of the horn being blown and the requirement of following the Dragon under the dragon banner.

 

Please lay out your reasoning that they are not HoT excluding "AH would have said so!!!!".

 

I did lay it out. In red. Right next to the pertinent passages in the text. It goes far beyond "Well, AH would have said something if they were." He would have said different things if they were - the things he said don't make sense if they are.

 

You say that "The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT." Why? The HoT are not the only means that the Pattern has to correct itself. It has, for example, ta'veren. Which we know Mat and Perrin are. There is no need for them to be anything else, and Hawkwings behavior indicates that they aren't.

 

Clearly, you're not convinced, and that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As you say, we might know in January, and hopefully if it isn't made clear enough, then someone can ask the question and not get RAFO'd at that point.

[elric]

i think it a resounding YES !

 

best swordman of his era

doomed king of a legendary kindom

extremly famous -> his name alone can generate an army , not only known by the ayal but given a speicific name by them

fighting a grand lost couse

mentoring the Dragon Reborn

husband and true love of the BEST Aas Saday ever -> healing BOTH stilling and the madness -> Nyneav suppressed any yellow sister in history

warder of the Aas Saday who defeated 2 forsaken

and currently leading the charge against the Bore

 

what else u want from th man ??? :))

[XoMeltdownoX]

i think it a resounding YES !

 

best swordman of his era

doomed king of a legendary kindom

extremly famous -> his name alone can generate an army , not only known by the ayal but given a speicific name by them

fighting a grand lost couse

mentoring the Dragon Reborn

husband and true love of the BEST Aas Saday ever -> healing BOTH stilling and the madness -> Nyneav suppressed any yellow sister in history

warder of the Aas Saday who defeated 2 forsaken

and currently leading the charge against the Bore

 

what else u want from th man ??? :))

For him to do the same many times over throughout the turning of the Wheel.

[elric]

as far as i understood its not if Lan is 1 of the HoTH but does he deserved to become one.

 

and i believe his acomplishment this lifetime earned him atleast a trial membership :)

[TristanWebb]

Lan already being a hero that is spun out, fine. Lan being a new hero? I don't think he has done enough to warrant being bound right now. The majority of his life was spent wandering around with Moiraine hiding from the Shadow. The stories about him and the Golden Crane would of sprung up around any kid who was the heir to Malkere and he has done little besides trying to get himself killed in the Blight. Sure in the last book with this army up there now he might qualify himself, but up till now I don't see he has done enough personally to be newly bound.

[elric]

we dont know what he did but it is strongly underline that he hadnt sit idle polishing his sword till Rand appeard

 

remember that he IS reknown as well as Morrain

they had about 20 years together of adventuring gaining quite a reputation together, considering how Morrain is treated in the borderland (as Morrain not as an run of the mill Aas Saday) and before he become a wader Lan did several Years of solo 1 man war on the blight

he have a retation of WAGING a doomed war , not a reputation of -> he WAS BORN to wage a doom war.

[TootThatHorn]

Perhaps Moiraine and Lan are another pair of heroes, that always venture together; a main device necessary for major events in the world.

[Story Archer]

I think he will qualify to be one, and that he and Nynaeve will have their bittersweet reunion after he has been called by the Horn.

[FarShainMael]

There are a few interesting comments in Lan's PoV right at the end of ToM:

 

"{Tarwin's Gap} had once been part of Malkier. He was home again. For the last time."

 

"He could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed."

 

"Lan wouldn't be surprised if he'd drawn every living man from his former kingdom who could still hold a sword."

 

I think he's done exactly that.. and this won't be the fall of the Mslkieri, but the rebirth of Lan's kingdom. Now that would make him a Hero...

[shortkut]

Again, it is entirely possible that HoT cannot recognize one another due to the currently spun out ones wearing new flesh that is unique to their current lifetime. LTT/Rand was a special instance during that particular moment.

 

Do you have a reason (based on something other than the fact that you want Mat and Perrin and a whole bunch of others to be Heroes of the Horn) why that would be? I mean, if your argument is just going to be "Nuh-uh, it could be! Wait for the book!" then there's really no point in even having this conversation ...

 

Do you have a reason? Other than you just dont want them to be HoT?

 

My reason is very simple: there has been zero evidence that they are NOT HoT. We literally will never know the answer unless something in the last book clarifies this for us. The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT. It suggests, but it does not prove anything. Your "evidence" that they are definitely not HoT is "Well AH would have said something if they were." That is even more ridiculous than assuming HoT have some kind of magical ability to recognize their fellow HoT's when they are in a brand new body that nobody has ever seen before with brand new memories. It is very plausible that the only reason they recognized Rand was because of the unique circumstances of the horn being blown and the requirement of following the Dragon under the dragon banner.

 

Please lay out your reasoning that they are not HoT excluding "AH would have said so!!!!".

 

I did lay it out. In red. Right next to the pertinent passages in the text. It goes far beyond "Well, AH would have said something if they were." He would have said different things if they were - the things he said don't make sense if they are.

 

You say that "The simple fact that HoT are legendary heroes reborn throughout all of time to play the "hero" roles suggests that the primary heroes of the story are HoT." Why? The HoT are not the only means that the Pattern has to correct itself. It has, for example, ta'veren. Which we know Mat and Perrin are. There is no need for them to be anything else, and Hawkwings behavior indicates that they aren't.

 

Clearly, you're not convinced, and that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As you say, we might know in January, and hopefully if it isn't made clear enough, then someone can ask the question and not get RAFO'd at that point.

actually, using your own notes in red, perrin is never excluded. mat is implied and we are told later that hurin has a chance to join, but nothing either way to hint at perrin. maybe he is a wolfhero of the horn

[elric]

another point for Lan qualifing:

 

a legendary love story with a legendary Aas Sedai (Nyn -> cleanser of the taint /healer of madness/ bringer of rain/ ForsakenBane ..)

 

btw as a side topic do Nyn Qualify ?

my opinion -> yup!

[TootThatHorn]

another point for Lan qualifing:

 

a legendary love story with a legendary Aas Sedai (Nyn -> cleanser of the taint /healer of madness/ bringer of rain/ ForsakenBane ..)

 

btw as a side topic do Nyn Qualify ?

my opinion -> yup!

 

Bold equals plenty for marriage material ;)

[Telzen]

My logic for Mat and Perrin being heros is this. They are second and third right behind Rand when it comes to importance in the Last Battle. Why would the Wheel spin out two random guys when it has 100+ heros that it could use. Wouldn't it use its best for such an important role?

[Neophyte]

Sometimes the best tool for the job isn't one in your standard toolbox.

 

And the Pattern applied other tools to Mat and Perrin. It made them very, very strongly ta'veren.

 

The Heroes of the Horn aren't a one-size-fits-all fix. They're just one of the tools available to the Pattern.

[hjustinpace]

Obviously. How else would he come back as Aragorn?