Does Lan qualify as a Hero of the Horn?

[Morsker]

I think he's already bound to the Horn. He's described many times as fighting a "one-man war against the Shadow", which is pretty ridiculous, and he even has a superhero name: Aan'allein. The guy is not normal.

 

Plus if he's a Hero, Nynaeve can resurrect him along with Rand.

[MountaineerWV]

Heroes can be added to the Horn. Not every life a Hero leads is interesting (ala Brig's statement). It is also established that specific Heroes are spun out for specific purposes, though they may be spun at for other events as well. The Dragon will always fight the DO in the Last Battle. The Dragon could be spun out at other times as well, but it WILL be the Dragon opposing the DO during Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Heroes are spun into the Pattern to bring the Pattern back to it's proper path. Sometimes the Pattern needs a major event to be brought back into alignment, sometimes a minor event. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

Tarmon Gaidon. Unless it can be shown that the DO is free to act during other Ages, there is no other event of this magnitude during the seven ages.

 

'May you live in interesting times'. There are no more interesting times than now. This will require a major jolt to get the Pattern back on track. A jolt that will require every HotH, dead or alive as shown by the fact that the Horn will be found prior to the Last Battle and that at the very least Rand will be present.

 

We know there are barely over one hundred HotH. How many more? 105? 115? At most, I would say 120. We can not narrow down how many actually appear with the Mist and how many are alive and do not know they are Heroes.

 

Again, I don't think that every character with a name is a Hero, but Rand, Mat, and Perrin are HotH for sure. I could buy that Lan and Nynaeve are HotH as well. That 4 additional HotH, not including Rand, alive to fight the DO during the preeminent event of the turning of the Wheel.

[Valley of Death]

What has Lan done?

 

Fight in the Blight countless times

Killed thousands of shadowspawn

Helped Moraine discover the Dragon Reborn

Train the Dragon Reborn in Swords and Life

Protect the Dragon Reborn and two other Ta'verens who are crucial to winning the Last battle

Stopped fighting his war in the Blight which he can't win, and do the harder yet more important thing in letting Moraine bond you because he knew what her goal was

 

Nyneave kind of ruined his horn worthiness for a few books

 

But he made it up with an epic journey throughout the borderlands and ride toward the last battle and finally fighting a battle that is worth fighting. His charge in Tarwins Gap, which was heroic, will end in his death most likely. But it lets Rand have his meeting with the monarchs of the world. If he didnt charge then that army of 100,000+ shadowspawn would destroy everything in its path.

 

Does this make Lan worthy of being with the HoTH?

 

Its hard to tell. I think it does at first

then i think that there were only like 100 people in the HoTH

So the real question is Lan a top 100 person of all time?

also does the HoTH reset every time the wheel resets?

because Lan can be a top 100 person in the first 3 ages because for at least on age there was no dark one, so there was no need for heroes.

 

it might even be more like top 500 person of all time considering the people of the horn have lived at least 5 epic lives each

and 500 is probably way to low

[BNICK1026]

I don't see Rand, Nyn or Lan as HotH at all. Rand is a cyclical character (the Dragon) The Heroes of the Horn are bound to him and the banner.

 

I thought it was implied that the Heroes would follow the Dragon either side of the battle no matter who blew it. SInce Hawkwing says something about them following the Banner so that could imply that if Rand had been evil they would have fought against the Light with him.

 

Anyways, I think Mat and Perrin hold the best cases thus far as possible additions to the HotH.

 

Lan may be the "One vs evil" character, but only because he doesn't have his nation, and really skill aside, isn't much different than any other borderlander because they are born and bread to fight the shadow constantly. HIs skill and history give him fame, but he isn't so remarkable that he has changed the coarse of nations as of yet. If his charge survives he could build the credit to be a HotH, but I still think it would take something story changing. Like him slaying a forsaken. I had hoped he would defeat Shadar Haran and gain mega status, but I don't think Shadar Haran will move far from SG. If I remember correctly Shadar meantions feeling weaker while away from SG too long.

[TristanWebb]

The heroes are bound to the Horn. They just had to follow the banner that specific calling because the Pattern forced them to. Hawking was confused about why he couldn't ride, which he wouldn't be if every time he was called he followed the banner. He would be all 'Yo, we are here but where is the banner, bitches?'.

[tje]

I thought it was confirmed that rand's soul was a hero?

[Suttree]

I thought it was confirmed that rand's soul was a hero?

 

It has been in interviews and that is how Hawkwing recognized him as LTT.

[LoLPoR]

Mat is probably already a HotH. He's the Gambler, the Trickster, and the Son of Battles. Not to mention that if Rand wasn't around he'd be a Ta'veren around the same level as Hawkwing and has had more random adventures than anyone else;breaking into the Stone of Tear, visits Aelfinn, visits Eelfinn, goes to Rhuidean, kills fake Car'a'carn, remakes the Band of the Red Hand, kidnaps an Imperial Princess, outsmarts an Imperial Army, and defeats the Snakes and Foxes. Perrin has never been mentioned as anything but a blacksmith, his power in TAR is a byproduct of the wolves, his victory in the Two Rivers was a result of people being motivated by him being Ta'veren, Dumai Wells was luck considering Taim showed up, and saving Faile took forever not to mention that he completely failed to bring the Prophet to Rand. Maybe he can be added to the HotH due to his legend in the current age but I believe Mat is already.

 

Oh yeah Lan shouldn't qualify, maybe Thom no Lan.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I don't see Rand, Nyn or Lan as HotH at all. Rand is a cyclical character (the Dragon) The Heroes of the Horn are bound to him and the banner.

 

I thought it was implied that the Heroes would follow the Dragon either side of the battle no matter who blew it. SInce Hawkwing says something about them following the Banner so that could imply that if Rand had been evil they would have fought against the Light with him.

 

Anyways, I think Mat and Perrin hold the best cases thus far as possible additions to the HotH.

 

Lan may be the "One vs evil" character, but only because he doesn't have his nation, and really skill aside, isn't much different than any other borderlander because they are born and bread to fight the shadow constantly. HIs skill and history give him fame, but he isn't so remarkable that he has changed the coarse of nations as of yet. If his charge survives he could build the credit to be a HotH, but I still think it would take something story changing. Like him slaying a forsaken. I had hoped he would defeat Shadar Haran and gain mega status, but I don't think Shadar Haran will move far from SG. If I remember correctly Shadar meantions feeling weaker while away from SG too long.

INTERVIEW: Oct 22nd, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

PAM BASHAM

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

 

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

 

ROBERT JORDAN

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

PAM BASHAM

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

[FarShainMael]

There are still problems. Note that in TGH47, Hawkwing says that the Heroes 'are called to the Horn, but must follow the Banner. And the Dragon.' In TGH5, Siuan says that prophecy says the Horn would only be found just in time for the Last Battle. Thom confirms this in TGH26. And the Dragon is to fight at the Last Battle, so he must already be alive for the Heroes to follow. Or perhaps I should say per RJ, the other Heroes. The Dragon's relationship with the Horn must be different.

[Neophyte]

There are still problems. Note that in TGH47, Hawkwing says that the Heroes 'are called to the Horn, but must follow the Banner. And the Dragon.' In TGH5, Siuan says that prophecy says the Horn would only be found just in time for the Last Battle. Thom confirms this in TGH26. And the Dragon is to fight at the Last Battle, so he must already be alive for the Heroes to follow. Or perhaps I should say per RJ, the other Heroes. The Dragon's relationship with the Horn must be different.

 

It seems to be a situational thing. Hawkwing's whole statement is this:

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

(emphasis mine, of course)

 

In that situation, at that moment, they had to follow the Banner. That was the need of the Pattern for that moment. In other situations, it could well be different. As Hawkwing also pointed out:

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern."

[FarShainMael]

Are the Heroes only called to the Horn, though?

[Neophyte]

Are the Heroes only called to the Horn, though?

 

The Heroes are used to serve the Pattern. The Horn is one method of calling them, and when it does, the Pattern will probably have a specific need for them. The need of that moment may involve other things, like the Dragon or the Banner.

 

RJ said something somewhere (and anyone who knows about this quote feel free to interject it) about the possibility of a rift or rent in the Pattern if the Horn is used the wrong way, or the Heroes are used in opposition to the Pattern, so there is some kind of flexibility or danger there. But I also think that the Pattern's "fuzzy logic" would make that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario. I imagine that the Horn only ever gets actually used in very controlled circumstances. Much like the effect of ta'veren, I imagine that random chance would randomly work very hard against anyone who tried to use the Horn against the Pattern.

 

I've actually wondered, though, what would happen (hypothetically) if say, the Horn is sitting in some Fourth Age museum, nothing much is going on, and the night guard just blew it for kicks and ordered the Heroes to get him a snack. I'd like to think that Hawkwing (or the Dragon-soul, or whoever) could just smack the dude and head back to Tel'aran'rhiod.

[FarShainMael]

Are the Heroes only called to the Horn, though?

 

The Heroes are used to serve the Pattern. The Horn is one method of calling them, and when it does, the Pattern will probably have a specific need for them. The need of that moment may involve other things, like the Dragon or the Banner.

 

RJ said something somewhere (and anyone who knows about this quote feel free to interject it) about the possibility of a rift or rent in the Pattern if the Horn is used the wrong way, or the Heroes are used in opposition to the Pattern, so there is some kind of flexibility or danger there. But I also think that the Pattern's "fuzzy logic" would make that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario. I imagine that the Horn only ever gets actually used in very controlled circumstances. Much like the effect of ta'veren, I imagine that random chance would randomly work very hard against anyone who tried to use the Horn against the Pattern.

 

I've actually wondered, though, what would happen (hypothetically) if say, the Horn is sitting in some Fourth Age museum, nothing much is going on, and the night guard just blew it for kicks and ordered the Heroes to get him a snack. I'd like to think that Hawkwing (or the Dragon-soul, or whoever) could just smack the dude and head back to Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

 

I saw that quote from RJ about it causing 'a rift in the Pattern' and I wasn't sure if he was joking, using that form of words to signal how unlikely it was.. but Harriet's startlement was interesting.

 

http://www.oocities.org/area51/stargate/8513/creator-horn.htm

 

That could have been taken two ways..

[Neophyte]

RJ definitely could have just been messing with us - and I do think it is extraordinarily unlikely that we'd ever see it actually occur.

[joeron bigelow]

This will probably end up being a lame a$$ question - and I think its been covered before. I just like repeating things...

 

If Fain stabs Rand and Rand croaks. If Mat blows the horn 30 seconds later - will Rand come out of the cloulds to fight the last battle? Or will LTT show up?

[Neophyte]

This will probably end up being a lame a$$ question - and I think its been covered before. I just like repeating things...

 

If Fain stabs Rand and Rand croaks. If Mat blows the horn 30 seconds later - will Rand come out of the cloulds to fight the last battle? Or will LTT show up?

 

Do you mean, which one would he look like physically? If I had to guess, I'd say Rand, but really, we don't know. There may be some kind of "default" setting for each soul that is attached to the Wheel.

 

The soul that is a Hero of the Horn is equally all of its past incarnations. So, it would be equal parts Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon ... as well as all the other previous incarnations. Thousands of lives, apparently.

[joeron bigelow]

no...i meant as a back up plan to someone killing the dragon reborn before he fights the DO.

 

Like those that press the reset button when the boss cheats and kills you. Or at least i know a few that do that. I never would myself...

 

So Rand and Mat plan ahead of time - hey Rand, if you get beheaded by a trolloc on your way to the Ghul...I will just blow the horn and summon you back to fight again!!!.

 

Ok maybe its not like pressing reset, but instead making sure you have lots of "extra lifes" before you fight the boss.

[MarkDiLillo]

If Lan isn't a hero of the horn then I'm not sure what would qualify you to get into that specific club.

 

Earlier in the series I had always thought the ending was going to involve blowing the Horn and finding out that nobody came to the calling...because all of the heroes bound to the horn were each of the characters throughout the series and already were there in the flesh. Clearly not the case anymore, but that would have been a pretty great scene.

[Neophyte]

If Lan isn't a hero of the horn then I'm not sure what would qualify you to get into that specific club.

 

Earlier in the series I had always thought the ending was going to involve blowing the Horn and finding out that nobody came to the calling...because all of the heroes bound to the horn were each of the characters throughout the series and already were there in the flesh. Clearly not the case anymore, but that would have been a pretty great scene.

 

It is not a matter of "qualifying." There are literally thousands (probably millions in a full cycle of the Wheel) of people "brave" enough to be one of them. It is a matter of the Pattern's needs. You don't become a Hero because you're awesome, you become one because the Pattern has a use for you, over and over again.

[MarkDiLillo]

If Lan isn't a hero of the horn then I'm not sure what would qualify you to get into that specific club.

 

Earlier in the series I had always thought the ending was going to involve blowing the Horn and finding out that nobody came to the calling...because all of the heroes bound to the horn were each of the characters throughout the series and already were there in the flesh. Clearly not the case anymore, but that would have been a pretty great scene.

 

It is not a matter of "qualifying." There are literally thousands (probably millions in a full cycle of the Wheel) of people "brave" enough to be one of them. It is a matter of the Pattern's needs. You don't become a Hero because you're awesome, you become one because the Pattern has a use for you, over and over again.

 

Yes, I know the rules. But in the context of the story, if one of the most heroic side characters with the richest back story is not one of the heroes of the horn then it would not make much sense for anyone else in the story to be heroes of the horn aside from the obvious 3.

 

I think it is safe to say that many of the main characters in the series are heroes of the horn. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Lan, Egwene, maybe even Thom are all heroes of the horn IMO. Hell it is likely that half of the minor good guy characters like Julian are heroes as well. However, if it is revealed that they are heroes then it destroys their identities as unique individuals struggling to make their mark on the world. Rand is the only exception because his entire story revolves around him being the ultimate hero of the horn reborn.

[Neophyte]

If Lan isn't a hero of the horn then I'm not sure what would qualify you to get into that specific club.

 

Earlier in the series I had always thought the ending was going to involve blowing the Horn and finding out that nobody came to the calling...because all of the heroes bound to the horn were each of the characters throughout the series and already were there in the flesh. Clearly not the case anymore, but that would have been a pretty great scene.

 

It is not a matter of "qualifying." There are literally thousands (probably millions in a full cycle of the Wheel) of people "brave" enough to be one of them. It is a matter of the Pattern's needs. You don't become a Hero because you're awesome, you become one because the Pattern has a use for you, over and over again.

 

Yes, I know the rules. But in the context of the story, if one of the most heroic side characters with the richest back story is not one of the heroes of the horn then it would not make much sense for anyone else in the story to be heroes of the horn aside from the obvious 3.

 

I agree with that. In fact, I don't think that Mat and Perrin are Heroes tied to the Horn. See below.

 

 

I think it is safe to say that many of the main characters in the series are heroes of the horn. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Lan, Egwene, maybe even Thom are all heroes of the horn IMO. Hell it is likely that half of the minor good guy characters like Julian are heroes as well. However, if it is revealed that they are heroes then it destroys their identities as unique individuals struggling to make their mark on the world. Rand is the only exception because his entire story revolves around him being the ultimate hero of the horn reborn.

 

I definitely don't agree with that. When Hawkwing is talking to them at Falme, we read:

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

 

He doesn't look at Mat or Perrin. In fact, Mat, Perrin, and Hurin are the only others present. Who is the "them" that Rand could tell if two of the other three were Heroes of the Horn too? None of the other heroes have significant looks for Mat or Perrin or Hurin, or joking remarks - like they do for Rand.

 

The only one in that group that got treated like one of the Team Horn is Rand - the Dragon. I wouldn't be surprised if the only other character in the stories who is a Hero is Birgitte. She never treats Mat like he's one of the Heroes, and she never even thinks anything like it either, when we get her PoVs. She knows he is the Hornsounder - she remembers him from Falme. And the other Heroes recognized Rand there, so why wouldn't she recognize Mat? Even if she didn't say anything to him, we should have gotten a hint in her internal thought PoVs. Ditto Perrin, whom she met in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

No, I think it is unlikely that anyone other than Rand and Birgitte are Heroes, among the crop of characters we have currently. Certainly not minor characters like Juilin Sandar, or even ones like Thom or Lan.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

@Neophyte

 

The particular passage you quoted where AH is talking is evidence that people who are Heros of the Horn do not appear as part of the ghostly horn entourage when they're currently a being of flesh and blood in the pattern.

 

In this regard any of our main characters could be heroes of the horn other than Mat or Perrin (if we assume the point you're making is correct, which appears likely) as they were not present at the time to be disregarded by AH. Therefore Lan could be a hero. But it doesn't seem that likely, or AH might have asked how his old buddy Lan was doing, maybe not though, maybe Lan and AH don't hang about together at the Hero of the Horn get togethers in TLR, he he.

 

To be a Hero of the Horn, or to be a hero at all, does one have to actually do anything? Could it not be the case that all you have to do is have people believe you've done something and get fame for it.

 

In this sense all the stuff Lan has done that no one knows about or cares about, such as hanging about with Moir and saving her skin every so often, don't matter. He needs to become a Hero. I think that possibly his Taverenesque approach to Tarwin's Gap is pretty close to being hero worthy material and providing enough witnesses survive it might make it into legend:

 

One man, born as the last remaining Malkiery dude, puts on his Kadin Sor thing and goes on his one man war for years. About to give up hope and ride off alone he is stopped by an AS who gets him to delay his destiny to seek out the DR. He teaches the DR to fight with the sword and shows him the move that would give him the chance in the fight in the skies above falme, sheathing the sword. Like the DR Lan knew he had to go sheath the sword in the blight, one last time to stab sightblinder in the eye. He put his kadin sor back on again and started off on the road to Tarwin's Gap where he would face thousands of trollocs on his own. Time and again he would refuse help along the way but people only believed in him more and more, eventually thousands of Malkiery were inspired and joined him at the Gap to face the trollocs.

 

All that remains to be seen is whether this battle, which is the stuff of legends, helps to do anything in the long run or if it is just a futile death wish of an old prince to a dead kingdom.

 

Having said all of that there are other things which are damned good being done by other people. Like Rodel Ilturalde. He has possibly done just as much as Lan to deserve to be a hero given the events at Maradon.

 

Who knows though, he wasn't standing beside Rand when the conversation with AH happened, so perhaps he is a hero too.

[Neophyte]

I don't think that anyone here would deny Lan's bravery, skill, determination, and basic human goodness. But if that is what it took to "qualify" as a Hero of the Horn, then there would be thousands of them, at least.

 

Again, one does not, it seems, "qualify" to become a Hero by virtue of skill, bravery, or any of those other virtuous virtues. You are made a Hero by the Wheel if the Wheel "decides" (and I use the term loosely, because we all know the Wheel isn't conscious as such) that it needs you to be one. So there is neither reason nor need to believe that any of the characters are in that group, other than Rand al'Thor and Birgitte. The other characters are regular souls who are doing extraordinary things.

 

Actually, other than Rand and Birgitte, the character with the best case of being a Hero of the Horn may be Moridin ... Heroes can be spun out to oppose one another, if that's what the Pattern needs, and Moridin seems to be Rand's eternal opponent. Kind of a sucky deal for him though.

 

The people who answer the Horn are called Heroes, but nothing says that they are always very heroic in the usual connotation of "extraordinarily good" during every lifetime.

[MarkDiLillo]

That sequences proves nothing other than that AH was talking to Rand. He makes no comment about the others which is neither a denial nor confirmation. It is entirely possible (and likely IMO) that HoT cannot recognize one another in their new flesh forms and Rand was the exception because he's kind of the boss hero that they needed to follow under his banner.