To Live You Must Die

[FarShainMael]

I dunno about that. So far the DO's touch on Randland is limited to Shayol Ghul, the Blight, causing bubbles of evil, and messing with the weather - which last required the Bowl of Winds to sort out. I don't think we have even seen any bubbles of evil in T'A'R - unless anyone out there knows differently.

[thisguy]

I dunno about that. So far the DO's touch on Randland is limited to Shayol Ghul, the Blight, causing bubbles of evil, and messing with the weather - which last required the Bowl of Winds to sort out. I don't think we have even seen any bubbles of evil in T'A'R - unless anyone out there knows differently.

 

I do know that Amy and Bair explain to Nynaeve in TAR that they wouldn't teach her how to pull a person out of their own dream and into TAR even if they knew how because it was an evil thing to do and what the Shadow did to people at the end of the Age of Legends - whether she meant the foresaken and other various bad guys or the DO himself it doesn't say.

[Rufae]

What if the DO orders Moridin to use Callandor (which is stolen by him) to destroy the world using a massive blast of Balefire? Rand could feel him channel and sense what is about to happen and so he as split seconds to save the world without knowing where Moridin is at the moment. Therefore the only way to save it is to kill himself and then his soul (which has been somewhat attached to Moridin) flows into Moridin's body where they battle for control of Callandor? The winner gets to live, the loser dies.

[Luckers]

What if the DO orders Moridin to use Callandor (which is stolen by him) to destroy the world using a massive blast of Balefire? Rand could feel him channel and sense what is about to happen and so he as split seconds to save the world without knowing where Moridin is at the moment. Therefore the only way to save it is to kill himself and then his soul (which has been somewhat attached to Moridin) flows into Moridin's body where they battle for control of Callandor? The winner gets to live, the loser dies.

 

My guess is that if the Pattern actually unravels due to balefire it will have repercussions even the Dark One cannot shrug off, or else the Dark One would have used the true fanatics like Ishamael to do this in the Age of Legends.

[Neophyte]

What if the DO orders Moridin to use Callandor (which is stolen by him) to destroy the world using a massive blast of Balefire? Rand could feel him channel and sense what is about to happen and so he as split seconds to save the world without knowing where Moridin is at the moment. Therefore the only way to save it is to kill himself and then his soul (which has been somewhat attached to Moridin) flows into Moridin's body where they battle for control of Callandor? The winner gets to live, the loser dies.

 

My guess is that if the Pattern actually unravels due to balefire it will have repercussions even the Dark One cannot shrug off, or else the Dark One would have used the true fanatics like Ishamael to do this in the Age of Legends.

 

Well, if there was ever a concerted effort to deliberately unravel the world with balefire, I think the Dark One might find himself with no supporters. As I recall, both sides in the War of Shadow are supposed to have stopped using it, without orders, once its potential effects were known. I don't think the Dark One has ever had enough "true fanatics like Ishamael" to pull off such a plan.

 

I think the complete unraveling of the Pattern, by any means, would suit the Dark One just fine.

[Tiberius]

I've often wondered why they didn't do just that. Balefire the pattern out of existence. The only answer I have is that only Ishy surmised the true intentions of the DO, the others wanted a world left in which to rule. Imagine how many true followers the DO would have if they knew his true intentions. One. Ishy. Not enough to zap the pattern...

[DrZippy]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me.

I agree. We're told too many times by Hopper and the Wise Ones that pulling people into TAR, going there physically, etc. are acts of evil. Why should we ignore these expressed sentiments when we're attaching such huge significance to passive comments like Nyn not being happy until she healed someone three days dead?

I think that that Rand will die, and his resurrection has something to do with the bonds to his three wifes.

Because no one else have three warder bonds and no one else has three wifes in the wheel of time.

 

The key to his resurrection will come from these bonds, but how it will be done I have no clue.

I agree with the Warder bond being the key ingredient to bringing Rand back to life. I just reread when Elayne saved Brigette by bonding her; Nyn tried healing to no avail. Elayne bonding Brigette gave Brigette's soul an "anchor" in the real world, allowing her to live. I think Rand's bond to the three women will be how his soul finds his way back.

 

This begs the question: what happens/happened to Alanna? Maybe she dies, or breaks/passes the bond? How does that effect Rand?

[thisguy]

The pulling out of TAR thing just seems anti-Pattern to me.

I agree. We're told too many times by Hopper and the Wise Ones that pulling people into TAR, going there physically, etc. are acts of evil. Why should we ignore these expressed sentiments when we're attaching such huge significance to passive comments like Nyn not being happy until she healed someone three days dead?

I think that that Rand will die, and his resurrection has something to do with the bonds to his three wifes.

Because no one else have three warder bonds and no one else has three wifes in the wheel of time.

 

The key to his resurrection will come from these bonds, but how it will be done I have no clue.

I agree with the Warder bond being the key ingredient to bringing Rand back to life. I just reread when Elayne saved Brigette by bonding her; Nyn tried healing to no avail. Elayne bonding Brigette gave Brigette's soul an "anchor" in the real world, allowing her to live. I think Rand's bond to the three women will be how his soul finds his way back.

 

This begs the question: what happens/happened to Alanna? Maybe she dies, or breaks/passes the bond? How does that effect Rand?

 

Great points, you guys. Doesn't Egwene save Gawyn that way, too?

[FarShainMael]

Gawyn was dying, not dead and in T'A'R. Egwene isn't that good at Healing by her own admission, so she used the Warder bond as a last resort.

[Vardar]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

[thisguy]

Gawyn was dying, not dead and in T'A'R. Egwene isn't that good at Healing by her own admission, so she used the Warder bond as a last resort.

Right, same with Brigitte. I'm just saying, they, potentially, could be on to something. Nobody else has been bonded to so many others. Who knows what the effect could be. Maybe nothing.... I just think it's some good speculation.

[DrZippy]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

[thisguy]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

[Vardar]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

[thisguy]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

Well, I don't remember how much time passes but let's say a month (it was probably less) between the time Gaidal tells Brig not to talk to Nyna and the time Nyna goes to T'Rond and Brig says Gaidal is gone. We assume the means he's been reborn. If that's the case, he has to be somewhere between a day and a month old.

[shortkut]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

he cannot be older thab an infant because we know how much real world time passed since we saw him and from the approximate time he was spun out. no amount of time in TAR would change that.

[thisguy]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

he cannot be older thab an infant because we know how much real world time passed since we saw him and from the approximate time he was spun out. no amount of time in TAR would change that.

Yeah, that's what I said: 1 day to a month = an infant.

[Vardar]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

he cannot be older thab an infant because we know how much real world time passed since we saw him and from the approximate time he was spun out. no amount of time in TAR would change that.

 

Ahh. I was thinking he could exist in TAR and the RL at the same time, as in the time streams aren't the same.

[shortkut]

I still say the 3 days dead is just a "saying" that ties their world to ours. A slight non at Christianity.

I'm pretty skeptical about Rand being dead for three days as well. But, as I'm rereading FoH, Brigette just reminded me that time passes differently in TAR than the real world. For example, Elayne and Nyn met her 10 and 7 days ago real world time, but for Brigette I think it was 4 and 3 days ago. If the foreshadowing about being dead for 3 days is correct, is that three days real world time, or TAR time?

 

If real world time, does the sun stay eclipsed for that long, or do clouds keep the world black as night (assuming the sun is gone while Rand is dead)? Or, maybe the sun can be seen again once the Bore is sealed, which I guess would be after his death but before his ressurection?

 

If 3 days TAR time, how long is that in the real world? An eclipse of several minutes/hours could be possible then, which would be linked to the line "twice dawns the day."

 

Bah, too many possibilities!

I think time can pass both slower and faster in T'Rond than the real world. It's a good thought.

 

I thought the same thing, however I was shouted down when I brought up the slower time passage meaning Gaidal might not be an infant right now.

he cannot be older thab an infant because we know how much real world time passed since we saw him and from the approximate time he was spun out. no amount of time in TAR would change that.

[thisguy]

Once Gaidal is reborn he is 100% in the real world. So however time has passed in the real world is how old he is.

[Tiberius]

Who ever said (sorry, too lazy to search and quote on my iPhone) something about Birgette dying in AMoL and being naturally reborn afterward, thus making her younger than Cain like she should be, was proabably on the right track IMO.

[thisguy]

Who ever said (sorry, too lazy to search and quote on my iPhone) something about Birgette dying in AMoL and being naturally reborn afterward, thus making her younger than Cain like she should be, was proabably on the right track IMO.

Do you know if Min ever had a vision when she looked at Birgette?

[Tiberius]

I don't even know if they've met

[thisguy]

I don't even know if they've met

I know she met her in Salidar. I don't remember a scene where they spoke but they were both there. Just wondering if she saw something of her future.

[Maleshub]

I don't even know if they've met

 

They met in Salidar and in Caemlyn "Winter's Heart: A Lily in Winter."