Which Forsaken Has Done The Most Evil?

[nolirion]

Funny how Selene/lanfear attitude toward Rand have masked most of Lanfear Evil nature , and this lead me to ask the question how do you qualifies evil ?

While all forsaken are basically evil , sometime character can hide the dept of evil , Barid bel Medar give us a resume of the evil forsaken did and would do .

 

To me Aginor is at the top , torturing people is a thing , even by Semirhage , but getting experimented on ? I can fathom the horror of the poor people put in that situation , and it is fortunate RJ didn't expand on that .

Second are Lanfear And Semirhage for obvious reason.

Ishamael did a lot of torture and devolve mankind many time and had 3000 to explore the dept of evil ,even if in my opinion he was mad most of the time .

So when is crime are not specifically horrific , is action are meant to destroy , corrupt and harm in the largest way possible so it is the core of evil .

But it is not sadism that drive Ishamael ,unlike Semirhage , and he rationalise is action by is participation in the ultimate sin , the destruction of the pattern , so he don't really care .

 

but really Lanfear was a close third behind Aginor and Isha

[jsbrads]

Everyone says they can do more evil, but if you slept for 3000 yrs, you can't complain that the guy who was awake gets credit for all the work he did, my original statement was, I don't care how much you wanted to do or tried to do. i care strictly about results, I doubt Aginor did the most work, but he was more successful than most of the forsaken who were on the frontline...

 

Love the... brought to you by the letter V

[Barid Bel Medar]

Everyone says they can do more evil, but if you slept for 3000 yrs, you can't complain that the guy who was awake gets credit for all the work he did, my original statement was, I don't care how much you wanted to do or tried to do. i care strictly about results, I doubt Aginor did the most work, but he was more successful than most of the forsaken who were on the frontline...

 

 

I think you are getting mixed up.

 

People are not saying that "such and such" did all the work.

 

The question of the poll is

 

Which Forsaken has committed the most heinous acts?

 

Now, you could take this to mean, which has done the MOST for the Shadow, which is what you have done, and that would be Ishamael .

 

However, others saw the question differently, meaning which acts have been the most heinous.

 

In this case, Ishamael could continue doing what he has for another 3000 years, it doesn't matter. Aginor creating Shadowspawn, permanently twisting millions of souls is still the most heinous act any of them have committed.

 

This is of course my opinion, and subject to debate, but you are arguing a competely different point. Fair enough that you quantify evil differently, but you can't argue a point when two different interpretations are being used.

[jsbrads]

LOL, I see what u r saying. There are two questions in the poll, most heinous and evilest

Though I kinda wanna put semirhage on the top of the list person least interested in meeting in person. I did kind of focus on best for DO.

I don't think evil is about what is in your heart, but what you do,

also who did the most heinous acts has two definitions (assuming there isn't some grammatical trick that pushes it one way)

most heinous acts can mean, out all of the acts in all history, which one act was the worst and the doer wins that vote OR

 

It can mean if you add up all the actions, which one accomplished the most heinous acts, then the guy who painlessly killed many ppl beats out the person who tortured one person for three minutes, ie more heinous acts...

I also think that as evil as an individual act can be, it has to be taken in context; namely one dude goes crazy and kills a bunch of people=evil, but a guy who slinks along killing one here and there over the period of years is somehow worse... tho admittedly that is less quantifiable.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It can mean if you add up all the actions, which one accomplished the most heinous acts, then the guy who painlessly killed many ppl beats out the person who tortured one person for three minutes, ie more heinous acts...

I also think that as evil as an individual act can be, it has to be taken in context; namely one dude goes crazy and kills a bunch of people=evil, but a guy who slinks along killing one here and there over the period of years is somehow worse... tho admittedly that is less quantifiable.

 

Yeah, that is what I was getting at. The question has obviously been interpreted in two different ways. I don't think that one is wrong and the other right, have to ask the OP what they meant. I just saw that the debate revolved around different interpretations.

 

Your opinion is just as vaild as anyone's. If that is what you quantify as evil, then nobody can really say that is wrong. There is no one definition.

 

I do agree with your statements, at least to a degree. Numbers don't necessarily indicate evilness. Asmodean severing his mother, I would consider, was much more evil than killing ten random guys.

 

I will say one final thing on Aginor, I consider his creation of Shadowspawn evil not so much that millions were sacrificed and tortured, or died. Not even that the Shadowspawn have killed millions since their creation. What strikes me as particularly evil is that it does not just stop at death. Millions of souls are now permanently twisted into pitiful things until the end of Time itself. They can't be reborn and have a chance at a decent life, they are forever doomed to be Shadowspawn or some wretched creature.

 

Similarly, I consider Ishamael much more evil than Semirhage. Yeah, Semirhage likes torture and all that, but she just likes experimenting on her patients. Testing the limits of the body and mind. An evil trait, no doubt. She is certainly extremely evil. But Ishamael wants everything to be destroyed, the world and the Pattern smashed into nothingness. Existence itself extinguished. To me, that is crazy evil.

[nolirion]

Well no , if the wheel work as Herid fel taught he doe's , then after the bore is sealed , or before , those trolloc will get "cured" ?

 

to complement on what jsbreads and Barid said , who are both right , there is a destructive side to evil and a pervert side to evil . Ishamael typically is off the destructive side , he take no pleasure in is fight against the light , he is the most destructive of all forsaken that is a fact and in a way the worst of them , or the most efficient of them , but he is not pervert , well as little as a forsaken can be .

So the way the poll is phrased Ishamael is the most destructive of all but there is forsaken more pervert them him .

[Suttree]

Well no , if the wheel work as Herid fel taught he doe's , then after the bore is sealed , or before , those trolloc will get "cured" ?

 

Not correct. Trollocs are only reborn as trollocs per RJ. Their souls become twisted pitiful things, hardly worthy of the name.

[jsbrads]

Well no , if the wheel work as Herid fel taught he doe's , then after the bore is sealed , or before , those trolloc will get "cured" ?

 

Not correct. Trollocs are only reborn as trollocs per RJ. Their souls become twisted pitiful things, hardly worthy of the name.

 

I haven't even thought of that... but then what would happen if there are no more shadow souled... what if we kill every last one of them after the war? are the souls mothballed for a whole age (or more)?

[Suttree]

Well no , if the wheel work as Herid fel taught he doe's , then after the bore is sealed , or before , those trolloc will get "cured" ?

 

Not correct. Trollocs are only reborn as trollocs per RJ. Their souls become twisted pitiful things, hardly worthy of the name.

 

I haven't even thought of that... but then what would happen if there are no more shadow souled... what if we kill every last one of them after the war? are the souls mothballed for a whole age (or more)?

 

Yeah not sure how that works but here is a quote. Apparently the twisting of the souls is permanent which adds weight to the Aginor argument.

RJ

You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

Another quote that shows how evil he is...

 

RJ

Aginor (whom he said after some prompting had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was a biological scientist who never considered the consequences of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen if I took the ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then mentioned Aginor's creation of the Trollocs, their defects, "It was strong, big, tough to kill, and...... stupid," and that it was the birth of the first Myrddraal that saved the Trollocs from being a complete failure.

[jsbrads]

Suttree, that definitly sounds like Aginor hit it out of the park.

but if the soul effect is permanent, then Aginor didn't do that, due to the circular time theory, he was essentially just awakening the twisted souls from a previous age as in infinite time scale there can be nothing new so it was done before...

[Orderofolde]

As to the most evil, Ishy has been spun out every forty years from his prison. He influenced Hawkwing against the Aes Sedai, saw entire nations ripped apart in the Trolloc Wars, and who else knows what all he had done each time he has been released. Setting the path to force current events certainly.

[Vardar]

Everyone says they can do more evil, but if you slept for 3000 yrs, you can't complain that the guy who was awake gets credit for all the work he did, my original statement was, I don't care how much you wanted to do or tried to do. i care strictly about results, I doubt Aginor did the most work, but he was more successful than most of the forsaken who were on the frontline...

 

Love the... brought to you by the letter V

 

Thanks.

[Vardar]

Suttree, that definitly sounds like Aginor hit it out of the park.

but if the soul effect is permanent, then Aginor didn't do that, due to the circular time theory, he was essentially just awakening the twisted souls from a previous age as in infinite time scale there can be nothing new so it was done before...

 

No I'm pretty sure it was something new. Like with Fain, his soul is now twisted. And Balefire, I doubt those souls were fated to be ripped from the pattern, Agi twisted those souls, the real question is this, where are new twisted souls coming from when Tollocs breed? Are they being created from the pool, or are they just being made anew since this is something outside the pattern now.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'll add that RJ didn't exactly discount the possibility of healing the twisted souls, so it could be that the souls are cleansed somehow, and possibly explains how the souls were re-tainted, if indeed it has happened in a previous age.

 

However, we can't be sure. I think this is a new thing, the soul twisting, as Vardarmus says. And the quote from RJ, while it doesn't discount the possibility of a cleansing, it sounds like it isn't something that is likely to happen.

[TristanWebb]

If the souls are twisted forever, that is the worst you could possibly do. If the souls are twisted for a set amount of rebirths, that is bad enough. It raises the question though, did Aginor twist the souls, or tap into a preexisting twisted soul supply. I am of the opinion that the pattern pulls from 4 supplies, much like a knitter pulls from bundles of the same kind of yarn, one for each gender and channeller type. If there are 2 more for the male and female trollocs that can be tapped in turnings that have trollocs, he isn't really doing anything exceptionally bad, just releasing the preexisting DO tainted souls on the pattern.

 

I think we can all agree though Bel'al did the least evil this turning, as Rand pretty much solved all his problems by accident when he claimed Callendor. Except Weiremon.

[Vardar]

If the souls are twisted forever, that is the worst you could possibly do. If the souls are twisted for a set amount of rebirths, that is bad enough. It raises the question though, did Aginor twist the souls, or tap into a preexisting twisted soul supply. I am of the opinion that the pattern pulls from 4 supplies, much like a knitter pulls from bundles of the same kind of yarn, one for each gender and channeller type. If there are 2 more for the male and female trollocs that can be tapped in turnings that have trollocs, he isn't really doing anything exceptionally bad, just releasing the preexisting DO tainted souls on the pattern.

 

I think we can all agree though Bel'al did the least evil this turning, as Rand pretty much solved all his problems by accident when he claimed Callendor. Except Weiremon.

 

What did Bel really do? He kinda fails at life really, and to add insult to injury, he was directly killed by a half-trained child with the power. Cmon man, kick him out the evil record books for being a loser!

[jsbrads]

 

No I'm pretty sure it was something new. Like with Fain, his soul is now twisted. And Balefire, I doubt those souls were fated to be ripped from the pattern, Agi twisted those souls, the real question is this, where are new twisted souls coming from when Tollocs breed? Are they being created from the pool, or are they just being made anew since this is something outside the pattern now.

 

Sorry, but Fain ain;t new, he is the mordeth virus, as shown, his brand is needed to heal the source the next time women or men work alone to seal DO, mordeth wasn't a new evil, he got sucked in to some ancient evil that was probably hidden in a cave or something for thousands of years

if that is true, then Trollocs happened before (they may not have looked like trollocs, but the twisted souls would not have had to be new)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry, but Fain ain;t new, he is the mordeth virus, as shown, his brand is needed to heal the source the next time women or men work alone to seal DO, mordeth wasn't a new evil, he got sucked in to some ancient evil that was probably hidden in a cave or something for thousands of years

if that is true, then Trollocs happened before (they may not have looked like trollocs, but the twisted souls would not have had to be new)

 

Actually...

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

 

QUESTION

 

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern

.

 

Things don't play out THAT similar in each turning. All that is similar is the broad outline of the pattern. The DO breaks free, crap seal, perfect seal.

 

What actually happens differs from Age to Age.

 

Each power or entity is not something that needs to be around before. Shadowspawn do not necessarily need to have been used in previous turnings. In any case, even if these souls were already tainted, using twisted souls to create twisted creatures like Shadowspawn is still evil enough for anyone.

 

 

No matter, until we get an answer to the question, anybody's guess could be right.

[Mik]

That's an easy pick for me:

Ishamael

 

I think that it's his actions and choices as Elan Morin back in the Age of Legends that the Bore could be sensed.

If belief and order give strenght to the Pattern -like Herid Fel deducted- it's only logic that the opposite, namely disbelief and chaos will weaken that Pattern.

If Fel can figure that out, then it's not hard to immagine that 'possibly the foremost philosopher of the pinnacle of civilization' who had like 300 years or more to figure this out did as well.

 

Elan Morin wrote some of those books he wrote during the AoL for a very specific reason; he needed disbelief in creation so it would weaken the Pattern and -as the cold logician he was- at the same time strenghten it's then nameless Dark Counterpart.

It's through his words in books like Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and Disassembly of Reason that a significant portion of the population started believing in the essence of Shai'tan; Nothingness.

And I think that's the reason, I think that's what changed during the AoL why -all of a sudden- that other Power source could be felt.

 

Elan Morin -through his writing and by slowly gaining influence with it- had at a certain point given the Dark Counterpart of Creation just enough of a Power base so that it could be felt by Channelers.

Ofcourse a higly advanced and peaceful society -that suspected nothing and didn't even have a name for war- would investigate and be curious as to what would be possible.

And as soon as the Bore was drilled, I think Elan Morin was the one who -literally- gave himself to what we now name Shai'tan to use at it saw fit.

 

Heart of the Dark (Ba'alzamon) and Soul of the Shadow are more then just titles. (just like "Telamon" -Worlds Heart- is more then just a title)

Ishamael gave his Soul away to nothingness. Elan Morin is the Betrayer of Hope because of it.

 

All the misery begins (and ends) with him.

 

“You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.”

[Vardar]

Whoa...

[Suttree]

Whoa...

 

Mik is epic.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh, havent seen Mik in a while. Good to see some theories from you again.

 

I don't know how true the theory will turn out to be, but I am keen on it. It is quite impressive. I hope it turns out that way.

[Vardar]

Whoa...

 

Mik is epic.

 

I'm rarely speechless. But damn.