How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[FarShainMael]

Pg 617, Winter's Heart:"Let go," Lan said quietly... "When the sun turns green, Rand told him..."So, who thinks the sun turns green during the day that dawns twice?

From the 'fun with foreshadowing' thread, my post 10..http://www.dragonmou...reshadowing/#10

Well, if the two of us think it's gonna happen, then it's gotta happen ;)

Absolutely right!!

[ozimandias]

Metaphysically speaking the DO is the flip side of the same coin as the creator. The creator can't directly intervene as it would involve releasing the dark one as well. Therefore he uses proxies. Also there's the matter of "free will" that would imply that if humanity is to be saved, it must be worth saving via their own actions.

 

That's my two cents worth, anyway. Or maybe no cents. Haha. See what I did there?

HA! Yeah, I get it. But, did the Creator make it that way or was it the only way he could create? Did he put the DO there purposely or because it was the best He could do?

I think of it like matter and anti-matter. They can't exist together without annihilating each other. Therefore, one must be kept seperate from the other. Once they make contact...boom. Oblivion. RJ had a background in physics, so maybe this isn't that far from what he was thinking.

I've always thought that the creator was more of a transcendant God in RJ's Universe. He created the wheel and the pattern and then moved on.

 

From that, I see the Dark One as a necessity for creating a lasting and cyclical/sustainable pattern - Much like a predator/prey population needs both in order to continue sustainably. Without the dark one, and the duty to defeat him, the world would eventually devolve into chaos - the world needs a common enemy to unite against or they will just squabble with each other. The idea of killing the dark one, that rand puts out there early on, is laughable because that would destroy the world as much as having the Dark One destroy it himself.

 

This is probably totally wrong and I've probably missed some point where RJ specifically said the 'Creator is in the world' or 'Ozimandias is a total idiot, don't listen to that guy'. So, sorry in advance.

Edit: Yeah, he did say:

ROBERT JORDAN

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

So I guess that would put my idea of the creator making him as part of the balance pretty silly.

Nevermind then, Is there a delete?

[Drawwod]

Alot of people seem to think that rand is going to be ripped out of TAR by Nyneave and then Bonded by Elyane after he dies but no one has mentioned that he's already Bonded to Elyane and whether that's going to play any kind of factor I mean can you Bond the same person twice? Will the Bond be automatically revived if he gets pulled out of TAR? Just a few things ive been thinking about

[FarShainMael]

The warder bond is severed by death - and by a few other things; see Moiraine/Lan's experience. I don't see any reason why a person shouldn't be bonded twice.

 

However, I will make no secret of the fact that I really hope it doesn't happen. For one thing, I have a feeling that Birgitte isn't truly alive. Nyn couldn't find anything wrong with her except that she was dying; Elayne bonded her to supply something she needed. What did she need, exactly?

 

I suspect that if that bond breaks - perhaps when Elayne goes into labour - Birgitte will die.

[Mark Molzner]

Been reading forums today and had a thought...

 

Someone with the encylopedic knowledge can answer this. What is the exact wording of the prophecies when it pertains to "The Dragon" vs. "The Dragon Reborn"? For instance, 1 prophecy may say "The Dragon" must die, while another prophecy might say "The Dragon Reborn" will live.

 

It may be nothing, but we often make simple mistakes in our own translations of the prophecies.

 

Are "The Dragon" and "The Dragon Reborn" 2 different people as far as prophecy is concerned? I take much of the books at face value. 2 becoming 1 is obviously (to me) Rand and LTT merging in VoG. What if someone/something splits them again? Perhaps only 1 of them takes Moridin's body, and thus 1 dies, 1 lives.

 

Having said all that, I'm sure this train of thought has already been covered somewhere already.

[Neophyte]

We don't have enough actual text of the prophecies, in my opinion, to do this kind of analysis. Everything we have is, at minimum, a translation - and much of that is second or third or fifteenth hand, even for the characters in the books. That is one reason why the interpretation of prophecy is so tricky.

[Mik]

Nyn couldn't find anything wrong with her except that she was dying; Elayne bonded her to supply something she needed. What did she need, exactly?

Nyneave couldn't find anything to heal, because Birgitte's Thread in and by itself was fine.

I think that what Birgitte needed was a place where she -her Thread- was attached to the Pattern. She was fading, because she wasn't -quite literally actually- spun into the Pattern. When Moghy threw her out of Tar, the Wheel was denied it's normal routine of spinning out Birgitte. What Elayne gave Birgitte, was an anchor that was firmly spun into the Pattern, namely a bond to her living mind, and that stopped Birgitte from fading.

 

RJ liked to use a tapestry as a methaphor. Immagine Birgitte -literally- as a Thread that got yanked out of the Pattern and got thrown on top of it. Elayne took a part of that Thread -the mind of Birgitte- and firmly attached it to her own, making Birgitte part of the Tapestry again.

[FarShainMael]

Good explanation!

[Agravayne]

Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood stains the rocks at Shayol Ghul.

 

This might really be a reference to the Red and Black-vieled Aiel, who could be thought of as the blood of the Dragon.

 

There are several things wrong with Aviendha's vision of the future -- for one, where are Aviendha and Elaine? With the amount of power that they weild, both should easily live to be 400+ yrs old. Aviendha should be around to guide her daughter. Elayne should still be Queen of Andor during most of that vision.

[thisguy]

Red on Black, the Dragon's Blood stains the rocks at Shayol Ghul.

 

This might really be a reference to the Red and Black-vieled Aiel, who could be thought of as the blood of the Dragon.

 

There are several things wrong with Aviendha's vision of the future -- for one, where are Aviendha and Elaine? With the amount of power that they weild, both should easily live to be 400+ yrs old. Aviendha should be around to guide her daughter. Elayne should still be Queen of Andor during most of that vision.

 

Although, this may have nothing at all to do with that part of the prophecy, you just jogged my memory. In KoD, the Forsaken meet, Cyndane and Moghedien are described as both wearing black clothing with red trim.

[PaulChauvet]

RJ liked to use a tapestry as a methaphor. Immagine Birgitte -literally- as a Thread that got yanked out of the Pattern and got thrown on top of it. Elayne took a part of that Thread -the mind of Birgitte- and firmly attached it to her own, making Birgitte part of the Tapestry again.

 

That reminds me of Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry, specifcally how "Rakoth Maugrim" does not have a connection to the tapestry (which is similar to the WoT pattern). Wonder how deep the similarity goes here.