How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[thisguy]

Metaphysically speaking the DO is the flip side of the same coin as the creator. The creator can't directly intervene as it would involve releasing the dark one as well. Therefore he uses proxies. Also there's the matter of "free will" that would imply that if humanity is to be saved, it must be worth saving via their own actions.

 

That's my two cents worth, anyway. Or maybe no cents. Haha. See what I did there?

HA! Yeah, I get it. But, did the Creator make it that way or was it the only way he could create? Did he put the DO there purposely or because it was the best He could do?

[Tiberius]

Metaphysically speaking the DO is the flip side of the same coin as the creator. The creator can't directly intervene as it would involve releasing the dark one as well. Therefore he uses proxies. Also there's the matter of "free will" that would imply that if humanity is to be saved, it must be worth saving via their own actions.

 

That's my two cents worth, anyway. Or maybe no cents. Haha. See what I did there?

HA! Yeah, I get it. But, did the Creator make it that way or was it the only way he could create? Did he put the DO there purposely or because it was the best He could do?

I think of it like matter and anti-matter. They can't exist together without annihilating each other. Therefore, one must be kept seperate from the other. Once they make contact...boom. Oblivion. RJ had a background in physics, so maybe this isn't that far from what he was thinking.

[thisguy]

It's probably a long shot, but Moiraine is the niece of Taringil (sp?), who would be Rand's stepfather - or, his mother's first husband, more accurately (I know, I know.... that makes them absolutely nothing). She's going with him to Shayol Ghul. It just seems kinda coincidental. He sheds his blood on the stones of Shayol Ghul.

[Tiberius]

It's probably a long shot, but Moiraine is the niece of Taringil (sp?), who would be Rand's stepfather - or, his mother's first husband, more accurately (I know, I know.... that makes them absolutely nothing). She's going with him to Shayol Ghul. It just seems kinda coincidental. He sheds his blood on the stones of Shayol Ghul.

I'd be willing to bet that just about everyone even remotely related to him through blood or marriage will shed some blood on the rocks.

[thisguy]

It's probably a long shot, but Moiraine is the niece of Taringil (sp?), who would be Rand's stepfather - or, his mother's first husband, more accurately (I know, I know.... that makes them absolutely nothing). She's going with him to Shayol Ghul. It just seems kinda coincidental. He sheds his blood on the stones of Shayol Ghul.

I'd be willing to bet that just about everyone even remotely related to him through blood or marriage will shed some blood on the rocks.

That's a good point. The only one completely his blood - the we know of - is Galad. That is unless his kids are born.

[FarShainMael]

But Galad's only his half-brother. He shares his mother, Tigraine, with Rsnd, but they have different fathers - Taringail, and Janduin. Rand has no full-blooded relatives. Even his children are half Elayne!

[thisguy]

But Galad's only his half-brother. He shares his mother, Tigraine, with Rsnd, but they have different fathers - Taringail, and Janduin. Rand has no full-blooded relatives. Even his children are half Elayne!

Lol... women just can't let you have anything to yourself, can they? ;)

 

Well, he also has Luc as a relative. But, with relatives like that...

[clu7ch]

See there's always been this thing in the Karethon Cycle that got me, it is quite clear throughout most of it about the distinguishing of Dragon, referring to Lews Therin, and the Dragon Reborn, referring to Rand. While it's true that they are the same person, they seem to be set as different by the prophecy for a reason, and I can't tell if it's just a consistency error or foreshadowing when it says "The Dragon's Blood" instead of the Dragon Reborn's.

 

Furthermore, it says once for mourning and once for birth, with the birth being the last, which leads me to believe, like so many others, that if that part of the prophecy is referring to Rand, it's actually referring to the birth of his children.

 

I'm also not completely convinced that Rand will die at all.

The series incorporates a great deal of influence from the Roman Catholic Church, and they have a practice called 'Dying to oneself' based in the passage:

 

John 12

unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit

 

In which a person goes all introspective and discovers for themselves what is standing in the way of a full and true relationship with God. Now, of course Rand may not be concerned about a relationship with God, but in Veins of Gold, it sure seems like he died to himself.

 

The real question to validate that is whether or not Alivia helped him come ot that conclusion, and I can't answer that.

 

And I want to. REALLY want to see Nyn heal death.

[Neophyte]

See there's always been this thing in the Karethon Cycle that got me, it is quite clear throughout most of it about the distinguishing of Dragon, referring to Lews Therin, and the Dragon Reborn, referring to Rand. While it's true that they are the same person, they seem to be set as different by the prophecy for a reason, and I can't tell if it's just a consistency error or foreshadowing when it says "The Dragon's Blood" instead of the Dragon Reborn's.

 

Furthermore, it says once for mourning and once for birth, with the birth being the last, which leads me to believe, like so many others, that if that part of the prophecy is referring to Rand, it's actually referring to the birth of his children.

 

I'm also not completely convinced that Rand will die at all.

The series incorporates a great deal of influence from the Roman Catholic Church, and they have a practice called 'Dying to oneself' based in the passage:

 

John 12

unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit

 

In which a person goes all introspective and discovers for themselves what is standing in the way of a full and true relationship with God. Now, of course Rand may not be concerned about a relationship with God, but in Veins of Gold, it sure seems like he died to himself.

 

The real question to validate that is whether or not Alivia helped him come ot that conclusion, and I can't answer that.

 

And I want to. REALLY want to see Nyn heal death.

 

Um ... actually, the Karaethon prophecy is quoted by Rand in TDR chapter five, and says, "The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

Just sayin' ...

[clu7ch]

This is probably just a consistency issue then.

 

The Great Hunt, Chapter 26 Pg. 393ebook

 

"So they do." Thom barked a laugh. "There's another comes to mind.

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

in TDR chapter 5 Rand is kind of running an adrenaline rush. He says

TDR Chapter 5 Pg. 78ebook

 

"Moiraine's hands moved, and Rand grimaced in pain. " 'The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow.' Isn't that what the Prophecies of the Dragon say?"

"Who told you that?" Moiraine said sharply.

 

She goes on to chastise him for taking things literally. But he seemed to misquote it.

[Neophyte]

This is probably just a consistency issue then.

 

The Great Hunt, Chapter 26 Pg. 393ebook

 

"So they do." Thom barked a laugh. "There's another comes to mind.

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

in TDR chapter 5 Rand is kind of running an adrenaline rush. He says

TDR Chapter 5 Pg. 78ebook

 

"Moiraine's hands moved, and Rand grimaced in pain. " 'The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow.' Isn't that what the Prophecies of the Dragon say?"

"Who told you that?" Moiraine said sharply.

 

She goes on to chastise him for taking things literally. But he seemed to misquote it.

 

It is possible that he was misquoting the verse Thom had quoted to him. But Moiraine chastised him because he was getting morbid, not because she doesn't expect him to die. She fully expected him to die.

 

We actually rarely see the text of the Karaethon prophecies except in the epigraphic quotes at the beginning and end of the books, and many of those are considered "disputed" translations according to the epigraphs themselves. But Rand doesn't lose his conviction that he will die at any point in the series - not after he reads a bunch of the actual prophecies in Tear, not after his conversation with the Aelfinn, not after his epiphany on top of Dragonmount.

 

Easy, not-going-out-on-a-limb prediction: Rand al'Thor will die.

[FarShainMael]

See there's always been this thing in the Karethon Cycle that got me, it is quite clear throughout most of it about the distinguishing of Dragon, referring to Lews Therin, and the Dragon Reborn, referring to Rand. While it's true that they are the same person, they seem to be set as different by the prophecy for a reason, and I can't tell if it's just a consistency error or foreshadowing when it says "The Dragon's Blood" instead of the Dragon Reborn's.

 

Furthermore, it says once for mourning and once for birth, with the birth being the last, which leads me to believe, like so many others, that if that part of the prophecy is referring to Rand, it's actually referring to the birth of his children.

 

I'm also not completely convinced that Rand will die at all.

The series incorporates a great deal of influence from the Roman Catholic Church, and they have a practice called 'Dying to oneself' based in the passage:

 

John 12

unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit

 

In which a person goes all introspective and discovers for themselves what is standing in the way of a full and true relationship with God. Now, of course Rand may not be concerned about a relationship with God, but in Veins of Gold, it sure seems like he died to himself.

 

The real question to validate that is whether or not Alivia helped him come ot that conclusion, and I can't answer that.

 

And I want to. REALLY want to see Nyn heal death.

 

Um ... actually, the Karaethon prophecy is quoted by Rand in TDR chapter five, and says, "The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

Just sayin' ...

 

I agree with much of what clu7ch says - except that I think Rand will die twice; 'twice to live and twice to die', and his first 'death' was in VoG as clu7ch says.

 

But the prophecy says he will shed his blood. He may just cut himself.. Shedding blood isn't necessarily equivalent to dying.

 

ETA: Re Alivia; was she somehow instrumental in persuading Tam to come and talk to Rand?

[Neophyte]

It will be interesting to see the intellectual hoops people jump through now to somehow make Alivia instrumental in the epiphany in VoG ...

[clu7ch]

She was OBVIOUSLY using compulsion and pretending to be LTT's voice in Rand's head at that particular moment, thus LTT was more calm and sane than ever before. LOL>

[Neophyte]

For the next contestant, we'll set the hoop on fire! Takers?

 

They need a regular smiley face option ... Big rack Moiraine just doesn't cut it ...

[clu7ch]

I'm not doing no flaming hoop, someone else do it or i'll involve bela speculations as to why alivia has to be atop the masterful horse to help rand die.

[thisguy]

I'm not doing no flaming hoop, someone else do it or i'll involve bela speculations as to why alivia has to be atop the masterful horse to help rand die.

 

I just noticed your sig. IGiggle.

[clu7ch]

i started it long ago, when the earth was young, or just before tgs came out. either one.

[Alonin]

One thing two remember, the world repeats in seven ages. If Rand fails, the wheel is broken, and time is ended with creation being remade/destroyed by the Dark One. If Rand wins, he has to die. But by dying, he will eventually be reborn again, meaning he lives. I think it is entirely possible Rand may not survive this current world.

[clu7ch]

welcome to dragonmount sir, and lets start out with a bang and i'll correct your grammar. one thing to remember :D (Don't hate me, i have terrible grammar myself)

 

I do agree that Rand will be bound to the pattern, but whether or not he's reborn is all contingent on whether or not he just seals up the DO again, or destroys him. Personally, aside from some other world shattering event that happens, if the DO is gone, the champion of the light won't be needed. If he is, the creator can crap him out no problem so i can't say he won't.

 

Furthermore....

 

God i just screwed up my head.

 

wow.

 

if the dark one is gone, why would the wheel need to spin out anyone really? unless it's just kinda a way to pay respects to badasses? It seems like the darkone is a pivotal feature in the turnings of the wheel, almost like the dark one is the soul purpose for a lot of the goings on. Metaphysics and whatnot.

 

Someone more educated pick up where I'm headed.

[Tiberius]

The dark one will not be destroyed. He must be sealed in a "perfect" prison as he was at the beginning of time. The creator can not do it directly without destroying all of existence in the process. Therefore Rand, as his proxy, will do it. He will most likely die in the process, not to be reborn until the appropriate turning of the wheel. I do not believe he will be ressurected or ripped out of TAR. He dies. Definitely no body swap.

[Neophyte]

I don't think the Dark One CAN be destroyed. Isn't there a quote somewhere of RJ saying that trying to generate enough balefire to mess with the Dark One would destroy the world first? Balefire is, by volume, the deadliest thing we know of - a tiny thread of it will do for the most dangerous creature.

 

The Dark One is more like one of the laws of physics than a coherent being - though "he" doesn't fit perfectly in either category, of course. I think it is a mistake to think of "him" as a person in the same sense as you or I or Rand or Moridin. The notion of destroying "him" isn't threatening to Moridin, when Rand says he's going to do it. Moridin basically just says (paraphrasing here) "that's stupid, you don't know what you're talking about." It struck me as being similar to how I would respond to a 30 year old man saying he would knock Jupiter out of orbit with an ice cream cannon. Stupid on so many levels that I wouldn't even bother to really deal with it.

 

Rand will not kill the Dark One. It's just not happening.

[Suttree]

One thing two remember, the world repeats in seven ages. If Rand fails, the wheel is broken, and time is ended with creation being remade/destroyed by the Dark One. If Rand wins, he has to die. But by dying, he will eventually be reborn again, meaning he lives. I think it is entirely possible Rand may not survive this current world.

 

You have to keep in mind there are degrees of victory for the DO. He has won and even turned Rand's soul to the shadow before, he has just never won an "ultimate" victory.

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

 

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

 

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

This is indeed the "Last Battle" for this particular age but there have been many "Last Battles" fought before.

[thisguy]

If that's the case, then I'm guessing it's possible to close the bore without Rand....

[b3arz3rg3r]

If that's the case, then I'm guessing it's possible to close the bore without Rand....

 

Or it's not possible for the DO to truly break free without the Dragon either coming to his side or him losing to the DO in the deciding confrontation.