How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[Mark Molzner]

When I think about the Last Battle, I really think of it as THE last battle. Ishy has been saying all along that this would be the final battle of all time. Or at least it should be, according to him.

 

I can see Rand dying in Shayol Ghul, after truly destroying the DO. Then, when the pattern spasms from the DO being destroyed, it bounces back a day. Thus, a day dawns twice.

 

I know that sounds crazy, and not in line with the "wheel" of cyclical time, but I've always wondered if perhaps the wheel of time is broken during the LB, and "time" becomes linear.

[thisguy]

When I think about the Last Battle, I really think of it as THE last battle. Ishy has been saying all along that this would be the final battle of all time. Or at least it should be, according to him.

 

I can see Rand dying in Shayol Ghul, after truly destroying the DO. Then, when the pattern spasms from the DO being destroyed, it bounces back a day. Thus, a day dawns twice.

 

I know that sounds crazy, and not in line with the "wheel" of cyclical time, but I've always wondered if perhaps the wheel of time is broken during the LB, and "time" becomes linear.

Yeah, I've thought about that, too. But, since the DO wants to destroy the wheel of time, it seems odd that winning the battle would mean the wheel gets broken. I'm not sure. I really hope the DO isn't destroyed only to be replace by Fain or something like that.

[Suttree]

When I think about the Last Battle, I really think of it as THE last battle. Ishy has been saying all along that this would be the final battle of all time. Or at least it should be, according to him.

 

I can see Rand dying in Shayol Ghul, after truly destroying the DO. Then, when the pattern spasms from the DO being destroyed, it bounces back a day. Thus, a day dawns twice.

 

I know that sounds crazy, and not in line with the "wheel" of cyclical time, but I've always wondered if perhaps the wheel of time is broken during the LB, and "time" becomes linear.

 

But we know it isn't the "Last Battle", it is simply the last battle for this age. Per RJ there is nothing unique about this turning(yes I know he said Fain is something new).

 

Also as Herid Fel said..

 

LoC Ch.18

 

"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

[shortkut]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

[Suttree]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

[thisguy]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

Thank God! The only thing I can see them doing, perhaps, is to somehow change what will happen the next time the revolution of the wheel comes to the same point.

 

At the same time, is that a good thing for humanity. I forget the name of the Shienaran lord the Rand and the others followed to hunt for the horn, but when the rode through the uninhabited lands above Cairhien, he went on about how humanity is shrinking and how the lands south of the borderlands are shrinking and growing weak, etc. He speculates that the borderlands may not be suffering from this because they have their fight against the creatures of the shadow.

[Suttree]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

Thank God! The only thing I can see them doing, perhaps, is to somehow change what will happen the next time the revolution of the wheel comes to the same point.

 

At the same time, is that a good thing for humanity. I forget the name of the Shienaran lord the Rand and the others followed to hunt for the horn, but when the rode through the uninhabited lands above Cairhien, he went on about how humanity is shrinking and how the lands south of the borderlands are shrinking and growing weak, etc. He speculates that the borderlands may not be suffering from this because they have their fight against the creatures of the shadow.

 

Yeah there can be differences in how things come about...

 

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

 

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

[Sharaman]

I wonder if the bodyswap theory will come into play? If it does, will Mat & Perrin's link t Rand's soul suddenly show them Moridin instead?

[thisguy]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

Thank God! The only thing I can see them doing, perhaps, is to somehow change what will happen the next time the revolution of the wheel comes to the same point.

 

At the same time, is that a good thing for humanity. I forget the name of the Shienaran lord the Rand and the others followed to hunt for the horn, but when the rode through the uninhabited lands above Cairhien, he went on about how humanity is shrinking and how the lands south of the borderlands are shrinking and growing weak, etc. He speculates that the borderlands may not be suffering from this because they have their fight against the creatures of the shadow.

 

Yeah there can be differences in how things come about...

 

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

 

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

definitely there can be differences. Just the fact that talents come and go shows that. I love reading about the yugas and this seems to be at least one of the sources of inspiration for RJ's wheel of time. I very much like the way RJ explains it in the books as a tapestry or weave, how everyone is a thread. Great stuff.

[shortkut]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

i don't believe that answer is as definitive as you thinl it is. he could very easily mean "up to this point in time" because the future turnings have not happened yet. the outline for them is already written, but the details have not.

[Suttree]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

i don't believe that answer is as definitive as you thinl it is. he could very easily mean "up to this point in time" because the future turnings have not happened yet. the outline for them is already written, but the details have not.

 

He was asked specfically whether Ishy was right in saying this is the final time and is there anyting about it that makes this age special and the answer is no. Combine that with Herid Fel's quote and unless the DO wins I would say it's pretty definitive.

[thisguy]

could rj simply mean there is nothing inherently unique or thus far there is nothing unique? he also told us fain is unique to this turning

 

Interview: May, 2001

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

Question

 

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

Robert Jordan

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

i don't believe that answer is as definitive as you thinl it is. he could very easily mean "up to this point in time" because the future turnings have not happened yet. the outline for them is already written, but the details have not.

 

He was asked specfically whether Ishy was right in saying this is the final time and is there anyting about it that makes this age special and the answer is no. Combine that with Herid Fel's quote and unless the DO wins I would say it's pretty definitive.

 

I think Ish's whole thing about it being the last time is just his belief that the DO will triumph and destroy the wheel. That's what I always got out of it - hubris.

[Suttree]

please delete

[shortkut]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

[Suttree]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

[shortkut]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

all i was saying was you can interpret the quote as referring only to turnings that have already happened. from a distance this turning is the same. As for evidence, RJ said Fain was a wildcard, something never before seen; unique to this turning. If Fain were simply one of the small details, he could not be a wildcard; he would essentially be insignificant. A wildcard is a game changer, not same old same old.

[Suttree]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

all i was saying was you can interpret the quote as referring only to turnings that have already happened. from a distance this turning is the same. As for evidence, RJ said Fain was a wildcard, something never before seen; unique to this turning. If Fain were simply one of the small details, he could not be a wildcard; he would essentially be insignificant. A wildcard is a game changer, not same old same old.

 

I acknowledged what he said about Fain in my initial post.

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

 

 

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Regardless we know what the foremost historian on the nature of the wheel said and we know what RJ said. This is not the "final battle", if the light wins the wheel keeps on spinning and it will come again. You can not interpret the quote in that way because that wasn't what was asked. The question asked specifically about Ishy thinking this was the "last battle" and RJ said no and then went on to say clear as day there is nothing different about "this age". So please, if you are going to make the claim could you quote the sentence and explain why you would interpret it differently.

 

As for the "wildcard" quote it had nothing to do with him being a "gamechanger". That is you putting your own spin on things out of context. RJ said it in reference to Fain being able to act "unpredictably".

[b3arz3rg3r]

I wonder if the bodyswap theory will come into play? If it does, will Mat & Perrin's link t Rand's soul suddenly show them Moridin instead?

 

Why would it? You yourself call it a link to Rand's soul not body. If Rand's soul is in another body why would the link show the old one?

[shortkut]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

all i was saying was you can interpret the quote as referring only to turnings that have already happened. from a distance this turning is the same. As for evidence, RJ said Fain was a wildcard, something never before seen; unique to this turning. If Fain were simply one of the small details, he could not be a wildcard; he would essentially be insignificant. A wildcard is a game changer, not same old same old.

 

I acknowledged what he said about Fain in my initial post.

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

 

 

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Regardless we know what the foremost historian on the nature of the wheel said and we know what RJ said. This is not the "final battle", if the light wins the wheel keeps on spinning and it will come again. You can not interpret the quote in that way because that wasn't what was asked. The question asked specifically about Ishy thinking this was the "last battle" and RJ said no and then went on to say clear as day there is nothing different about "this age". So please, if you are going to make the claim could you quote the sentence and explain why you would interpret it differently.

 

As for the "wildcard" quote it had nothing to do with him being a "gamechanger". That is you putting your own spin on things out of context. RJ said it in reference to Fain being able to act "unpredictably".

this age has not ended yet, so it is perfectly reasonable to assume he is talking about what has happened already. fain has side stepped the patttern meaning it cannot weave him as it wants. there could be someway that this age ends differently than other third ages. maybe the DO's prison is perfectly sealed and the wheel turns to new ages... or the DO wins

[Suttree]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

all i was saying was you can interpret the quote as referring only to turnings that have already happened. from a distance this turning is the same. As for evidence, RJ said Fain was a wildcard, something never before seen; unique to this turning. If Fain were simply one of the small details, he could not be a wildcard; he would essentially be insignificant. A wildcard is a game changer, not same old same old.

 

I acknowledged what he said about Fain in my initial post.

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

 

 

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Regardless we know what the foremost historian on the nature of the wheel said and we know what RJ said. This is not the "final battle", if the light wins the wheel keeps on spinning and it will come again. You can not interpret the quote in that way because that wasn't what was asked. The question asked specifically about Ishy thinking this was the "last battle" and RJ said no and then went on to say clear as day there is nothing different about "this age". So please, if you are going to make the claim could you quote the sentence and explain why you would interpret it differently.

 

As for the "wildcard" quote it had nothing to do with him being a "gamechanger". That is you putting your own spin on things out of context. RJ said it in reference to Fain being able to act "unpredictably".

this age has not ended yet, so it is perfectly reasonable to assume he is talking about what has happened already. fain has side stepped the patttern meaning it cannot weave him as it wants. there could be someway that this age ends differently than other third ages. maybe the DO's prison is perfectly sealed and the wheel turns to new ages... or the DO wins

 

Yes in RJ's quotes he has allowed for the fact that if the DO wins all bets are off. The problem with your spinning of that one sentence is even where it correct(which is a longshot giving the wording) you are ignoring him saying "no" to Ishy thinking this was the "Last Battle". When taken together and combined with what the text tells us, your interpretation falls flat. Herid Fell has the right of it and RJ confirms it. It takes some serious wilfull ignorance to come to any other conclusion.

[shortkut]

i took he no to ishy more as no guarantees so he is wrong for stating it as fact. rj loves being ambiguous or having multiple interpretations to his answers.

[Suttree]

rj loves being ambiguous or having multiple interpretations to his answers.

 

Actually on the contrary, despite occasional fans making that assumption it is well known RJ rarely gave AS answers. He was far more prone to answering out right or giving a RAFO.

[Dagon Thyne]

Rand and Moridin are linked. When Rand kills him, he kills a part of himself. I think that's what it means. He will most likely lose the ability to channel, or some of his memories, like Mat did when he got his knowledge of warfare.

[thisguy]

if he tells us the future then there is no reason to read anymore

 

It is all contingent on the DO not winning an "ultimate" victory. That would break the cyle. Not to mention the ages look the same from far away but up close you notice huge variations. I have provided evidence from both the text and RJ himself. If you have something to counter please do so.

all i was saying was you can interpret the quote as referring only to turnings that have already happened. from a distance this turning is the same. As for evidence, RJ said Fain was a wildcard, something never before seen; unique to this turning. If Fain were simply one of the small details, he could not be a wildcard; he would essentially be insignificant. A wildcard is a game changer, not same old same old.

 

I acknowledged what he said about Fain in my initial post.

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

 

 

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

 

 

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Regardless we know what the foremost historian on the nature of the wheel said and we know what RJ said. This is not the "final battle", if the light wins the wheel keeps on spinning and it will come again. You can not interpret the quote in that way because that wasn't what was asked. The question asked specifically about Ishy thinking this was the "last battle" and RJ said no and then went on to say clear as day there is nothing different about "this age". So please, if you are going to make the claim could you quote the sentence and explain why you would interpret it differently.

 

As for the "wildcard" quote it had nothing to do with him being a "gamechanger". That is you putting your own spin on things out of context. RJ said it in reference to Fain being able to act "unpredictably".

 

On a metaphysical note, this begs the question: is the Creator not all powerful or is he all powerful and knows that for humanity to have any worth they need the DO as a challenge?

[Tiberius]

Metaphysically speaking the DO is the flip side of the same coin as the creator. The creator can't directly intervene as it would involve releasing the dark one as well. Therefore he uses proxies. Also there's the matter of "free will" that would imply that if humanity is to be saved, it must be worth saving via their own actions.

 

That's my two cents worth, anyway. Or maybe no cents. Haha. See what I did there?