How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[Terez]

I've seen no forshadowing about it. I've never heard of any resurection theories until I read these boards. I'm still surprised about it and trying to piece together where people got the idea. Near as I can figure, it's from some of the visions, the Boat one, the one's you quoted above. Hell even the Mat "to die and live again" was pretty straight forward, and he didn't really die did he? He wasn't dead on the tree, just nearly dead, and with the balefire trick, he technically never died. So even that said die and live again, and he never truly died.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Mat died in Caemlyn, not in Rhuidean. So yes, he did die, just like the Aelfinn said he would. If Rand hadn't balefired Rahvin, he'd still be dead, along with Aviendha, and we'd have never had an argument about who killed Asmodean.

[Vardar]

I've seen no forshadowing about it. I've never heard of any resurection theories until I read these boards. I'm still surprised about it and trying to piece together where people got the idea. Near as I can figure, it's from some of the visions, the Boat one, the one's you quoted above. Hell even the Mat "to die and live again" was pretty straight forward, and he didn't really die did he? He wasn't dead on the tree, just nearly dead, and with the balefire trick, he technically never died. So even that said die and live again, and he never truly died.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Mat died in Caemlyn, not in Rhuidean. So yes, he did die, just like the Aelfinn said he would. If Rand hadn't balefired Rahvin, he'd still be dead, along with Aviendha, and we'd have never had an argument about who killed Asmodean.

Thought Balefire stops what happened before it happened, therefore it never happened, thus Mat never actually died. Ravhin was removed before he killed him. (Which would also mean the shield was still on Asmodean)

 

See, ambigioius.

[FarShainMael]

He died in one of the Portal Stone 'worlds of 'if'' perhaps?

[Suttree]

I've seen no forshadowing about it. I've never heard of any resurection theories until I read these boards. I'm still surprised about it and trying to piece together where people got the idea. Near as I can figure, it's from some of the visions, the Boat one, the one's you quoted above. Hell even the Mat "to die and live again" was pretty straight forward, and he didn't really die did he? He wasn't dead on the tree, just nearly dead, and with the balefire trick, he technically never died. So even that said die and live again, and he never truly died.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Mat died in Caemlyn, not in Rhuidean. So yes, he did die, just like the Aelfinn said he would. If Rand hadn't balefired Rahvin, he'd still be dead, along with Aviendha, and we'd have never had an argument about who killed Asmodean.

Thought Balefire stops what happened before it happened, therefore it never happened, thus Mat never actually died. Ravhin was removed before he killed him. (Which would also mean the shield was still on Asmodean)

 

See, ambigioius.

 

Caemlyn has been confirmed by RJ as Mat dying, so no not ambigious.

 

As for foreshadowing see the Nyn quotes on healing someone three days dead and the like. They are sprinkled all throughout the series.

[Terez]

I've seen no forshadowing about it. I've never heard of any resurection theories until I read these boards. I'm still surprised about it and trying to piece together where people got the idea. Near as I can figure, it's from some of the visions, the Boat one, the one's you quoted above. Hell even the Mat "to die and live again" was pretty straight forward, and he didn't really die did he? He wasn't dead on the tree, just nearly dead, and with the balefire trick, he technically never died. So even that said die and live again, and he never truly died.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Mat died in Caemlyn, not in Rhuidean. So yes, he did die, just like the Aelfinn said he would. If Rand hadn't balefired Rahvin, he'd still be dead, along with Aviendha, and we'd have never had an argument about who killed Asmodean.

Thought Balefire stops what happened before it happened, therefore it never happened, thus Mat never actually died.

 

Yes, he did. The effects of Rahvin's actions were removed from the Pattern, but people still remember them, so it happened. And, as Suttree pointed out, RJ confirmed this as the death predicted by the Aelfinn.

[Vardar]

I've seen no forshadowing about it. I've never heard of any resurection theories until I read these boards. I'm still surprised about it and trying to piece together where people got the idea. Near as I can figure, it's from some of the visions, the Boat one, the one's you quoted above. Hell even the Mat "to die and live again" was pretty straight forward, and he didn't really die did he? He wasn't dead on the tree, just nearly dead, and with the balefire trick, he technically never died. So even that said die and live again, and he never truly died.

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Mat died in Caemlyn, not in Rhuidean. So yes, he did die, just like the Aelfinn said he would. If Rand hadn't balefired Rahvin, he'd still be dead, along with Aviendha, and we'd have never had an argument about who killed Asmodean.

Thought Balefire stops what happened before it happened, therefore it never happened, thus Mat never actually died.

 

Yes, he did. The effects of Rahvin's actions were removed from the Pattern, but people still remember them, so it happened. And, as Suttree pointed out, RJ confirmed this as the death predicted by the Aelfinn.

 

People remember them? The people who he "killed" didn't.

 

My point was, if the effects of his actions were removed from the pattern, in essence Mat (And company) weren't ressurected so much as it never happened, i.e. he never died, thus the death as predicted, didn't exactly happen. See what I'm getting at.

 

Caemlyn has been confirmed by RJ as Mat dying, so no not ambigious.

 

As for foreshadowing see the Nyn quotes on healing someone three days dead and the like. They are sprinkled all throughout the series.

 

Confirmed to fufill the requirements of the statements as they were said, my point was to say They said he would "Die yet live again", he technically never died, since time was reversed (for those people involved) that entire situation never occured.

 

I was trying to show how a direct statement, no questions about it, can occur and not really occur as stated. You guys are quoting ambigious statements (Prophesis and the such) and saying they prove something.

 

AS to the foreshadowing, You can take every little statement and stretch it to be forshadowing. I took that statement as merely a "saying" used in randland (Possibly based on Christianity). You took it as foreshadowing. We won't know until January. We'll see.

[Terez]

People remember them? The people who he "killed" didn't.

 

That's because they were dead at the time. The people who were not dead remember everything that happened.

 

My point was, if the effects of his actions were removed from the pattern, in essence Mat (And company) weren't ressurected so much as it never happened, i.e. he never died, thus the death as predicted, didn't exactly happen. See what I'm getting at.

 

No one ever said Mat was resurrected, so no, I don't see what you're getting at.

[Vardar]

People remember them? The people who he "killed" didn't.

 

That's because they were dead at the time. The people who were not dead remember everything that happened.

 

My point was, if the effects of his actions were removed from the pattern, in essence Mat (And company) weren't ressurected so much as it never happened, i.e. he never died, thus the death as predicted, didn't exactly happen. See what I'm getting at.

 

No one ever said Mat was resurrected, so no, I don't see what you're getting at.

 

I'm getting at the idea that those statements mean Rand will be resurrected. The definite statement about Mat shows that it can't even be trusted if it clearly states someone will die. Mat technically didn't die, but it said die clearly.

[Terez]

1. Min did not say Mat would die. It's Min's viewings that are the most clear.

2. Mat did die.

[Neophyte]

Mat did die in Caemlyn. Mat did not die in Caemlyn. The fact that both of these statements are true is the paradox of balefire - and that is why it is so dangerous. It makes the world not make sense.

 

That's also, incidentally, why the Dark One probably likes it, as long as it isn't used on someone he wanted to get back. It is chaos - the destruction of time is the destruction of the order of events that our language is contingent upon. It is also why language used to predict occurrences involved with balefire can seem ambiguous - we don't really have good words for what happens when time itself gets mucked about with.

 

Keeping this in mind is probably necessary when dealing with grammatical idiocies like "he who is dead yet lives." The escalating conflict with the Dark One is likely to introduce other time paradoxes into the Pattern that are not necessarily balefire-related (like the dead walking). The Wheel he is trying to destroy, after all, is the Wheel of Time.

[Gristle]

I think using "he who is dead yet lives" as proof of resurrection is a stretch - too ambiguous. It could be referring to timing, i.e. he who is destined to die is still alive at the moment. It could be in reference to the fact that he is physically dead but his soul lives on to come back in the next age. It could be in reference to faking death, i.e. the world thinks he's dead but he's not. It could mean resurrection too, but unless I'm missing something there are too many other possibilities for that to be anything but speculation.

 

How about "too live you must die"? "Or Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth"

 

Aside from that his resurrection has been foreshadowed none too subltly throughout the series.

 

1. You must sacrifice yourself to preserve the wheel and ensure your soul lives on.

2. He bleeds all the time - doesn't necessarily indicate his death.

3. Assuming he's the one being mourned, which isn't necessarily the case, the birth could be referring to other births. Perhaps Elayne's babes, for example.

 

To be clear, although I've read most of the books multiple times, I certainly haven't studied it to the degree that most of you have, but I'm missing that his resurrection in this age has been foreshadowed as a fact. The whole series revolves around the reincarnation of the Dragon when he's most needed, so constant references to that happening both now and again in a future age are certainly there. I'm not saying it's not there if you want to take it that way, I have just taken it differently.

[Terez]

The Nicola Foretelling is the strongest prophecy dealing with his resurrection. He has already died in that scene, yet it's clear that he is still important to events in the world. If he's already dead, then why is he important at all? Why is he on a boat? Why are his three women important? I wrote a summary of the foreshadowing here if you are interested. I compared it to the foreshadowing that Mat would lose his eye, because it's every bit as obvious. More obvious, really.

[shortkut]

Even after receig that, i don't think anything was more obvious than Mat and his eye

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Even after receig that, i don't think anything was more obvious than Mat and his eye

I didnt catch they eye untill my 2nd readthrough (around time winters heart came out i guess) and saw mins vision of the eye on one scale and the world on the other. While the clues were def there if you were looking fir them i wouldnt say it was super obvious an eelfinn was gonna rip his eye out of his face :p. what is going to happen isnt nearly as hard to figure out, or as fun, as HOW it is going to happen. We all know its pretty much down to either death/resurection or the bodyswap. But how it happens is the fun part, and what we all really wanna know ;)

[Terez]

That's like saying it was down to Mat giving up his eye and the sun being cut in half. Takes some serious ignoring the evidence to come to the latter conclusion. Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

That's like saying it was down to Mat giving up his eye and the sun being cut in half. Takes some serious ignoring the evidence to come to the latter conclusion. Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

Im not saying it wasnt obvious mat would give up his eye. What i mean to say is it wasnt obvious how he would give it up. Im sorry i dont explain myself as well as i mean to.

 

As for bodyswap having no foreshadowing, i would gave to strongly disagree with that. Its all a matter of how you interpert things. Rand often sees Moridin's face now, and can sense him. One of the mire recent times it happens it states the feeling is getting stronger, and Rand thinks to himself how he can actually feel the other mans prescence in his mind. So what will happen when they are actually face to face? Tge only other 'person' ge ever sensed like tgat was LTT, who he eventually merged with. The bidyswap tgeory also could tie in to how rand will die tet live afain, as his body dies. Also hiw ge who is dead still lives. He lived on in moridins body. This also explains tge black gauntleted fist holding callandor. It is rand in moridibs body. Also with the bodyswap tgere is no reason to 'rip' him out of T'AR, which i agree is possible but also seems inherently evil. And no need to heal death, which has been repeatedly driven home as the one thing that can never be healed. Even rand with callandor only made that little girl a puppet.

 

I don't 100% believe in either theory, but both have been heavily foreshadowed depending on how you interpert things. The fact us nobody but BS actually KNOWS what will happen. So discounting other theories simply because you believe your own to be right or more likely is foolish imo. We all have to wait and see what happens. And frankly these prophecies can be interperted several different ways. We wont have an answer til aMoL comes out, so dont pretend to know better then everyone else.

 

**apologies fir spelling im typing on my

Phone****

 

p.S. i mean no offense and don't seek to discount anyones theories or thoughts, i just dont like when people act as though their point of view is the only possible one. True or false, everyone here puts time and thought into the way they interpert these books and shouldnt just be shrugged off or told they dont know what they are talking about.

[GYLD]

Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

 

I don't know if that is necessarily true. There is the dream in EotW with all the mirrors reflecting Rand's image as that of Ba'alzamon, but I imagine there are many interpretations of that scene.

[Terez]

That's like saying it was down to Mat giving up his eye and the sun being cut in half. Takes some serious ignoring the evidence to come to the latter conclusion. Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

Im not saying it wasnt obvious mat would give up his eye. What i mean to say is it wasnt obvious how he would give it up. Im sorry i dont explain myself as well as i mean to.

 

That was fairly obvious too. Most believed he would give it up to save Moiraine; that's what the Aelfinn said, basically.

 

As for bodyswap having no foreshadowing, i would gave to strongly disagree with that. Its all a matter of how you interpert things.

 

There's no evidence in WoT at all that people can swap bodies. Merge, yes. Swap, no.

 

Rand often sees Moridin's face now, and can sense him.

 

That just means they're linked. Min predicted a merge, not a swap. Think Luc/Isam. That is foreshadowed. Bodyswap is not.

 

We wont have an answer til aMoL comes out, so dont pretend to know better then everyone else.

 

It's not pretending. It's knowing I have a better grasp of the evidence than most people.

[shortkut]

It's not pretending. It's knowing I have a better grasp of the evidence than most people.

technically it isn't knowing unless you've seen it, otherwise it's simply a very good hypothesis

[burningpriestess]

My brother and I have always thought Rand would have a fake death after winning the LB, so that Logain could pretend to be the Dragon Reborn. That way, Rand could retire to a simple country life while Logain fulfills Min's viewing of wearing a golden crown. There are plenty of holes with this theory, but I could see this coming about in some way.

[thisguy]

My brother and I have always thought Rand would have a fake death after winning the LB, so that Logain could pretend to be the Dragon Reborn. That way, Rand could retire to a simple country life while Logain fulfills Min's viewing of wearing a golden crown. There are plenty of holes with this theory, but I could see this coming about in some way.

That's actually a pretty good theory. They don't look alike but he could use saidin to fix that. I don't think that's what's going to happen, though.

[burningpriestess]

yeah, it might be hard to retire to a simple country life when you have 3 wives. especially when one is a Queen. But Logain is always wearing a crown in Min's viewings. He is going to have a heroic role, but it will probably just be as King of the Black Tower after he kicks Taim's butt with the help of Pevara and the Two Rivers boys.

 

also, i think the 3 women standing over Rand's funeral pyre/boat scene would be all for show so that people think he's dead.

[thisguy]

I think Rand will die. I think he needs to to fight the DO somehow. Die and come back to life three days later. The DO is called the Lord of the Grave - maybe he has to fight him in the afterlife...

[FarShainMael]

Even after receig that, i don't think anything was more obvious than Mat and his eye

 

That was so obvious that it wasn't so much a foreshadowing (which are subtle and indirect, and often inverted) as a full-on prediction. Two predictions, in fact. There was the Aelfinn answer about giving up half the light of the world (TSR15), and Min's viewing of an eye on a balance scale (EotW15). On top of that we have all the stuff labelling Mat as an Odin-analogue, from the hat to being hung from a tree and the spear, which has two ravens and the words 'thought' and 'memory' engraved on it, and that ring.

 

http://www.pantheon....les/o/odin.html

http://en.wikipedia....he_Wanderer.jpg

 

(I wonder if he will face Slayer/Fenrir..)

 

By contrast, all we have about souls moving between bodies are Slayer and transmigration.

 

 

(Oops.. missed a word out )

[TristanWebb]

Mat and gunpowder was more obvious than losing an eye.

 

That said, the ripping out of TAR still rubs me the wrong way. I don't think it is foreshadowed more than healing death straight up or the bodyswap theory, and any time it is brought up it is as evil. Birgitte is losing herself due to it. Min's viewings of both old and young Gaidel implies that ripping out has long term effects on the cycle.

 

Most of the foreshadowing about it can't be tied to pulling out of TAR. It is just standard death will be healed stuff.