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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

"To live, you must die" Rands death.


RahulSingh

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I've also seen Mahatma Randhi, which made me laugh.

During my first read-through, I was convinced that all the death-and-rebirth prophecies were aimed at the Dragon, not necessarily Rand. I was sure that this meant that the part of him that is LTT will die in the last battle, and only Rand will remain. Of course, as I got further into the series and started frequenting DM, eWoT, and Theoryland, I realized that was impossible, since the Aelfinn directly addressed Rand, and since the two Dragons fused during Veins of Gold.

Anyway, I love seeing the body swap theory resurface on the forums every month or so. While I don't necessarily believe that's what will happen in the books, it's a great theory that's just crazy enough to fit all the clues.

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I love the thought of a band of channelers who know how to Travel and trained as a Special Force being stationed in HInderstap. They zoom off during the day and beat the crap out of whoever, secure in the knowledge that they'll wake the next morning in their beds.

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I'm sure someone has thought of this and come up with reasons why it wouldn't work because of quotes authors have made or the exact wording of prophecies lol. But I love the thought of Rand actually dying and staying dead. And the whole "to live, you must die" referring to his soul. As in if he lives then he didn't fulfill his purpose and the Dark One destroyed the pattern so his soul isn't reborn. But if he dies then he did fulfill his purpose and his soul is reborn. It is just that everyone is so sure he will live in some way because of all of the foreshadowing in the series. If he actually did die it would probably tie for biggest surprise with Verin being black. Maybe even beat Verin.

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I posted this in the wrong thread yesterday...

Posted Yesterday, 11:20 AM

I've always taken the "To live, you must die" as a re-incarnation thing.

 

If Rand can't win/draw without dying as per prophecy (ie. not getting taken by the DO and living eternally), he won't be reborn to again "live" as per the Finns answer. I don't think that their (Finn's) statement refers to this Age exclusively, but that's only my opinion.

 

It also makes me think on the Rand/Moridin link... if whoever draws the sword is destined to "follow after" (taking that this means he'll be the next Dragon/Dragon Reborn - not my personal opinion as the text doesn't support simultaneous time but it does make me think why can't more that one incarnation be present at the same time?) I know RJ has stated that time can't flow back from in TAR to the Randworld, but to my knowledge, simultaneous time has not been brought up. I think it could stand to reason that either Moridin or the DO are replaced by Rand if he turns. Mega Darth Rand would obliterate the competition and become the new Dark Lord for the next turning if that were the case..

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Given Aviendha's experience in the glass columns at Rhuidean (which I know are maybe not 100% certain), Rand will not likely be around long after the end of the Last Battle - perhaps not at all. As a channeler, unbound by the Oath Rod, he should live for hundreds of years, yet even in Padra's POV, a mere seventeen years after the Last Battle (or at least, the last time the Aiel "rode" to war .... SANDERSON!!!) he is thought of exclusively in the past tense. Certainly he is not leading anyone or anything anymore. (Aviendha seems to be gone too, interestingly). So if he does live, then he retired so fully from the world that he's not even involved with his children - they don't seem to know anything about him personally.

 

I actually think it is likely that he does die in some kind of permanent way, and that the "living" is more metaphorical than physical. That would also fit all the Aurthurian themes - maybe he's "alive" but in some place/status so far removed that it is as if he is dead; his own Isle of Avalon. I think that being just plain dead with this soul in Tel'aran'rhiod would count, and it would work for me, but it will probably be a little more complex than that.

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My take on the columns is that Avi saw what would happen in the future... if she hadn't seen it. Since she has seen these visions she can adapt her behavior accordingly and do something about it.

 

 

As for Rand's death the likeliest way the prophecies and heavy forshadowings will work out and not all contradict each other (IMO) is Terez's ripping him out of T'A'R theory. Nyneave knows the weaves to do it, she's seen them before and learns weaves after seeing them once, she wouldn't be happy unless she healed someone three days dead, etc. etc.

 

I'm kind of interested in how he dies in the first place. Moiraine balefiring him to back up her statement in TEotW?

 

Bah, January is too far off for me to start thinking about this yet. ADWD and other stuff distracted me for quite a while there, but now I'm back to WoT.....

 

TOO SOON

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I'm kind of interested in how he dies in the first place.

 

Indeed. 'Who will kill Rand?' is 100x more fascinating a question than 'Who killed Asmodean?' ever was. There's a possibility there will be no 'who' but IMO it's unlikely. Which makes the question 'Who is Mordred?' :)

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I don't know if this has been discussed, but I have been thinking that this prophecy refers to the Veins of Gold scene, where Darth Rand turns into Zen Rand, effectively killing the old rand and giving birth to this new rand that is some fused version of LTT and Non-Crazy rand.

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I don't like the ripped out of TAR theory. The idea that the Harem will disrupt the Wheel by pulling one of the Heroes out seems so selfish to me. Maybe Elayne would do it, but I don't see Avi or Min allowing it to happen. I much prefer the body-switch theory, where he gets the sexy Moridin body.

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I posted this in the wrong thread yesterday...

Posted Yesterday, 11:20 AM

I've always taken the "To live, you must die" as a re-incarnation thing.

 

If Rand can't win/draw without dying as per prophecy (ie. not getting taken by the DO and living eternally), he won't be reborn to again "live" as per the Finns answer. I don't think that their (Finn's) statement refers to this Age exclusively, but that's only my opinion.

 

It also makes me think on the Rand/Moridin link... if whoever draws the sword is destined to "follow after" (taking that this means he'll be the next Dragon/Dragon Reborn - not my personal opinion as the text doesn't support simultaneous time but it does make me think why can't more that one incarnation be present at the same time?) I know RJ has stated that time can't flow back from in TAR to the Randworld, but to my knowledge, simultaneous time has not been brought up. I think it could stand to reason that either Moridin or the DO are replaced by Rand if he turns. Mega Darth Rand would obliterate the competition and become the new Dark Lord for the next turning if that were the case..

 

Well the prophecies never technically say he dies. It's really misleading.

 

And even his laughing when he was wounded about the blood on the rocks could have been forshadowing. (Book 3)

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True, twice to live and twice to die could simply refer to his two lives as the Dragon and Dragon Reborn. I'd actually like it if he didn't die, I cannot bring myself to like the body-swap or TAR theories, even though they can be supported by various dreams, visions and foretellings. We know these can be difficult to interpret the true meanings of.

 

5 months is just too long.

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True, twice to live and twice to die could simply refer to his two lives as the Dragon and Dragon Reborn. I'd actually like it if he didn't die, I cannot bring myself to like the body-swap or TAR theories, even though they can be supported by various dreams, visions and foretellings. We know these can be difficult to interpret the true meanings of.

 

5 months is just too long.

While I like those theories, as they are probably the most accurate ones we as a community have, I really hope neither of them are right. If the ending is what I expect... it will not be as fun. I want a surprise.

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I don't know if this has been discussed, but I have been thinking that this prophecy refers to the Veins of Gold scene, where Darth Rand turns into Zen Rand, effectively killing the old rand and giving birth to this new rand that is some fused version of LTT and Non-Crazy rand.

 

Nope. Alivia had nothing to do with it. Also, Min's viewings do not allow for metaphorical death; if she sees someone will die, they will die, simple as that.

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True, twice to live and twice to die could simply refer to his two lives as the Dragon and Dragon Reborn. I'd actually like it if he didn't die, I cannot bring myself to like the body-swap or TAR theories, even though they can be supported by various dreams, visions and foretellings. We know these can be difficult to interpret the true meanings of.

 

5 months is just too long.

While I like those theories, as they are probably the most accurate ones we as a community have, I really hope neither of them are right. If the ending is what I expect... it will not be as fun. I want a surprise.

 

Well unfortunately for you, RJ liked foreshadowing things. I'm sure there will be some surprises in the end, but if you don't want to know anything about what's going to happen in the last book, then why are you here?

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Has anyone discussed or figured out what Cadsuane is supposed to have taught the Asha men? Or just the men that channel with Rand?

 

It may be in another forum or stuff, but since it hasnt been revealed in any book so far, i figure it be in this book.

 

Min says Cad is gonna teach Rand something pretty important...and Cad was constantly trying to teach him something else about life besides manners. Could whatever Cad be teaching - be the part of the "to live must die" issue?

I believe it was the whole he is not just a weapon deal, then he passes it on the AM

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im new to this site, but have always been a big fan, so i dont know if this has been written or wateva but the issue of the "to live you must die'' issue could it not just mean that since Rand Al Thor is the dragon reborn: is he really?, lews therin is inside his head as the dragon and is not just a memory as rand talks to him and sort of merges finallly with him at the end of book 13, isnt he more like a vessel and so lews therin must die at the last battle where rand al thor can live his life, but no longer as the dragon reborn but just as rand al thor. so in summary the dragon reborn dies and rand al thor lives.

 

Some replies or thoughts would be appreciated

Thank You :rolleyes:

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im new to this site, but have always been a big fan, so i dont know if this has been written or wateva but the issue of the "to live you must die'' issue could it not just mean that since Rand Al Thor is the dragon reborn: is he really?, lews therin is inside his head as the dragon and is not just a memory as rand talks to him and sort of merges finallly with him at the end of book 13, isnt he more like a vessel and so lews therin must die at the last battle where rand al thor can live his life, but no longer as the dragon reborn but just as rand al thor. so in summary the dragon reborn dies and rand al thor lives.

 

Some replies or thoughts would be appreciated

Thank You :rolleyes:

Wasnt he told that in the early parts of the shadow rising? If so that was before he ever started hearing lews therin, so i would imagine they were speaking directly to 'rand' not 'lews al'thor'. Neat theory tho, unlikely i think, but cool idea

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