Channeler to Soldier Ratio

[Suttree]

Secondly, my question:

 

Could Ishamael have had something to do with the White Tower's depleted numbers? That is, in concert with his actions in Seanchan, could he have had something to do with the Aes Sedai pretty much only looking for girls who can learn and their disdain for Wilders (sparkers)? The reason for this question is that sparkers are generally stronger in the Power and the Shadow would be happier with only 1/4 of that potential to face? We already know that some of Ishamael's plans spanned eons, why not this? The numbers (and their potentials) of new initiates Egwene has brought in indicates this to me, even though I have only thought of it just now.

 

Didn't he whisper in Artur Hawkwing's ear? Was this "whisper" the reason behind Hawkwing's turning against Aes Sedai and proclaiming a bounty of 1000 crowns for each Aes Sedai head?

 

Correct. Up until Ishy showed up Hawkwing had AS acting as governors holding positions of power in his empire and then...

 

EotW

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

[Maleshub]

Secondly, my question:

 

Could Ishamael have had something to do with the White Tower's depleted numbers? That is, in concert with his actions in Seanchan, could he have had something to do with the Aes Sedai pretty much only looking for girls who can learn and their disdain for Wilders (sparkers)? The reason for this question is that sparkers are generally stronger in the Power and the Shadow would be happier with only 1/4 of that potential to face? We already know that some of Ishamael's plans spanned eons, why not this? The numbers (and their potentials) of new initiates Egwene has brought in indicates this to me, even though I have only thought of it just now.

 

Didn't he whisper in Artur Hawkwing's ear? Was this "whisper" the reason behind Hawkwing's turning against Aes Sedai and proclaiming a bounty of 1000 crowns for each Aes Sedai head?

 

Correct. Up until Ishy showed up Hawkwing had AS acting as governors holding positions of power in his empire and then...

 

EotW

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

Thanks, Suttree! This forum would not be as informative without your always timely and convincing quotes.

[Lisa Campbell]

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

[Suttree]

Secondly, my question:

 

Could Ishamael have had something to do with the White Tower's depleted numbers? That is, in concert with his actions in Seanchan, could he have had something to do with the Aes Sedai pretty much only looking for girls who can learn and their disdain for Wilders (sparkers)? The reason for this question is that sparkers are generally stronger in the Power and the Shadow would be happier with only 1/4 of that potential to face? We already know that some of Ishamael's plans spanned eons, why not this? The numbers (and their potentials) of new initiates Egwene has brought in indicates this to me, even though I have only thought of it just now.

 

Didn't he whisper in Artur Hawkwing's ear? Was this "whisper" the reason behind Hawkwing's turning against Aes Sedai and proclaiming a bounty of 1000 crowns for each Aes Sedai head?

 

Correct. Up until Ishy showed up Hawkwing had AS acting as governors holding positions of power in his empire and then...

 

EotW

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

Thanks, Suttree! This forum would not be as informative without your always timely and convincing quotes.

 

No worries mate!

 

Edit: Btw the effects of Ishy's tampering were not just on the other side of the world. As he says in the quote AS died due to Hawkwing's decree, he started the BA, and he had the Amrylin "dancing on a string".

[Maleshub]

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

 

If you go back to Suttree's quote, you'll see that the fallout with Aes Sedai happened before he sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean. So, Aes Sedai died in Randland, not Seanchan.

 

As to searching for learners and shunning wilders, the Kin gives evidence (their sheer number) that the failure was not in recruitment methods only; but also in training and organization.

[DaoineSidhe]

Not sure if this point has been brought up in regards to the damane – sul'dam channeling connection, and why it isn't noticed in Seanchan:

 

-Requirements to be controlled by an a'dam: A woman who has manifested the ability to channel. Still not exactly sure where this line is. I would have thought that it was once a woman had actually channeled, but seems less, because sul'dam who seemingly have never channeled can be controlled by an a'dam. However, these sul'dam have been so for long years, and have learned to be able to “sense” channeling in others, so that “sense” must be the tipping point. For the purposes of finding women with the “spark”, the test needs to be administered over several years because when they “manifest” their ability comes naturally at different ages

 

-Requirements to control a woman who can channel with an a'dam: A woman who has the ability to channel. Doesn't matter if they have the spark or can learn, or whether they have “manifested” this ability or not. Simply being able to channel will allow control of the link. As a result, you could potentially test a one year old girl, and she could potentially control the link, even though she is years from ever being able to manifest, or realize her powers.

 

Damane test: Fail = Controlled by a'dam; Pass = a'dam can not control you.

Sul'dam test: Fail = Cannot control an a'dam link; Pass = Can control the a'dam link.

 

All women who fail the damane test will pass the sul'dam test.

 

-Testing for damane: Ages ~11~25: Known ages that women who have the “spark” inborn will manifest the ability.

 

Due to bold statement above, testing for sul'dam must therefore occur after one has failed their final damane test. Otherwise, the link between the two would have been too common not to be noticed. Because after the first year of testing, all future women who failed the damane test would come from girls who has passed the sul'dam test.

 

Because the testing occurs after, you would never get sul'dam failing the damane test, and so after a thousand years, it is not inconceivable that common knowledge of the connection between the two would die out.

[Mr Ares]

Not sure if this point has been brought up in regards to the damane – sul'dam channeling connection, and why it isn't noticed in Seanchan:

 

-Requirements to be controlled by an a'dam: A woman who has manifested the ability to channel. Still not exactly sure where this line is. I would have thought that it was once a woman had actually channeled, but seems less, because sul'dam who seemingly have never channeled can be controlled by an a'dam. However, these sul'dam have been so for long years, and have learned to be able to “sense” channeling in others, so that “sense” must be the tipping point. For the purposes of finding women with the “spark”, the test needs to be administered over several years because when they “manifest” their ability comes naturally at different ages

 

-Requirements to control a woman who can channel with an a'dam: A woman who has the ability to channel. Doesn't matter if they have the spark or can learn, or whether they have “manifested” this ability or not. Simply being able to channel will allow control of the link. As a result, you could potentially test a one year old girl, and she could potentially control the link, even though she is years from ever being able to manifest, or realize her powers.

 

Damane test: Fail = Controlled by a'dam; Pass = a'dam can not control you.

Sul'dam test: Fail = Cannot control an a'dam link; Pass = Can control the a'dam link.

 

All women who fail the damane test will pass the sul'dam test.

 

-Testing for damane: Ages ~11~25: Known ages that women who have the “spark” inborn will manifest the ability.

 

Due to bold statement above, testing for sul'dam must therefore occur after one has failed their final damane test. Otherwise, the link between the two would have been too common not to be noticed. Because after the first year of testing, all future women who failed the damane test would come from girls who has passed the sul'dam test.

 

Because the testing occurs after, you would never get sul'dam failing the damane test, and so after a thousand years, it is not inconceivable that common knowledge of the connection between the two would die out.

Except we know that sul'dam are still tested to see whether they are damane. See WH 20 - Bethamin confirms that "Even sul'dam" were tested. I think the flaw in your thinking comes from your belief that a one year old could potentially control the link. I think it more likely that just as some women spark at different times, some women become ready to start learning at different times. And it is not until a woman is ready to start learning that she could control the a'dam.

[Vardar]

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

 

If you go back to Suttree's quote, you'll see that the fallout with Aes Sedai happened before he sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean. So, Aes Sedai died in Randland, not Seanchan.

 

As to searching for learners and shunning wilders, the Kin gives evidence (their sheer number) that the failure was not in recruitment methods only; but also in training and organization.

 

No she means was it Isshy's fault that the AS stopped actively seeking out girls who could learn to channel. And while I cannot remember if this was touched upon in the book, for some reason I assumed that was Isshy's whispering that did that. I just wish I could recall if it was inferred from my reading or outright stated.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Vards, I raised the question as a possibility to see if others had had the same idea, it only came to me because of this thread and wondering about what Ishy's other machinations besides the ones already stated could be. I mean, the guy has been freed about 72 times over the last 3000 years. Surely he did more than whisper in Hawkwing's ear, set the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred years in motion, something to do with Guaire and Yurian, and founding the Black Ajah. What else don't we know?

 

Actually, Ba'alzamon mentioned Logain along with Guaire and Yurian in that dream Rand had, could he have tampered with him too? And if so, how do you think?

[Vardar]

Thanks Vards, I raised the question as a possibility to see if others had had the same idea, it only came to me because of this thread and wondering about what Ishy's other machinations besides the ones already stated could be. I mean, the guy has been freed about 72 times over the last 3000 years. Surely he did more than whisper in Hawkwing's ear, set the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred years in motion, something to do with Guaire and Yurian, and founding the Black Ajah. What else don't we know?

 

Actually, Ba'alzamon mentioned Logain along with Guaire and Yurian in that dream Rand had, could he have tampered with him too? And if so, how do you think?

 

Those last few Dragons did cause a bit of damage and escape AS for a while. It's never really been explained. I mean I know Logain's claim about the Reds were false, but it had a ring of truth to it. Was Isshy behind that? I think it's a valid theory.

[Maleshub]

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

 

If you go back to Suttree's quote, you'll see that the fallout with Aes Sedai happened before he sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean. So, Aes Sedai died in Randland, not Seanchan.

 

As to searching for learners and shunning wilders, the Kin gives evidence (their sheer number) that the failure was not in recruitment methods only; but also in training and organization.

 

No she means was it Isshy's fault that the AS stopped actively seeking out girls who could learn to channel. And while I cannot remember if this was touched upon in the book, for some reason I assumed that was Isshy's whispering that did that. I just wish I could recall if it was inferred from my reading or outright stated.

 

I don't recall any reference blaming Ishmael for changing the WT recruitment policy. If such a reference exists, please refer me to it.

[Vardar]

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

 

If you go back to Suttree's quote, you'll see that the fallout with Aes Sedai happened before he sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean. So, Aes Sedai died in Randland, not Seanchan.

 

As to searching for learners and shunning wilders, the Kin gives evidence (their sheer number) that the failure was not in recruitment methods only; but also in training and organization.

 

No she means was it Isshy's fault that the AS stopped actively seeking out girls who could learn to channel. And while I cannot remember if this was touched upon in the book, for some reason I assumed that was Isshy's whispering that did that. I just wish I could recall if it was inferred from my reading or outright stated.

 

I don't recall any reference blaming Ishmael for changing the WT recruitment policy. If such a reference exists, please refer me to it.

That wasn't quite what I meant though. I know Ishamael interfered with Hawkwing. The effects of that interference were on the other side of the world though.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was referring to AS mostly only searching for girls who could learn (not sparkers who are a bonus if you catch them before they spark), and the origins of the AS's aversion for wilders?

 

If you go back to Suttree's quote, you'll see that the fallout with Aes Sedai happened before he sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean. So, Aes Sedai died in Randland, not Seanchan.

 

As to searching for learners and shunning wilders, the Kin gives evidence (their sheer number) that the failure was not in recruitment methods only; but also in training and organization.

 

No she means was it Isshy's fault that the AS stopped actively seeking out girls who could learn to channel. And while I cannot remember if this was touched upon in the book, for some reason I assumed that was Isshy's whispering that did that. I just wish I could recall if it was inferred from my reading or outright stated.

 

I don't recall any reference blaming Ishmael for changing the WT recruitment policy. If such a reference exists, please refer me to it.

 

I'm going to have to search on my reread I'm currently doing. As I said, I can't recall if I got that impression for some reason, or if it was directly inferred in the text. I seem to remember someone explaining why they stopped looking for girls, I know I can't imagine that...

[Lisa Campbell]

I don't have a reference and as far as I know it wasn't mentioned in text. My first post on this subject was merely a question to see what others think about it.

 

Edit: because of the similarity between Sul'dam and Damane learner vs sparker compared to the modern AS not actively recruiting and their disdain for wilders. It stinks of Ishy to me, especially given his control of the Black Ajah

[RandA lThor]

OK, here is my input even though I haven't read this whole thread. First of all, there needs to be a set strength, since an Asha'man would destroy more soldiers than a Dedicated. Also, the WT could not kill as many soldiers as Asha'man, so the Aes Sedai and Asha'man are not equal. Finally, would they be facing archers, pike, swords, riders? How fast would the army be approaching and how far would they start out. What terrain would they be on? All of these would make a great difference in the ratio.

[Sharaman]

We have a channeler to trolloc ratio of sorts from the scrap at Algarin's manor. The group that was there at the Cleansing plus Logain's boys and girls - a total of less than 100 channelers (Admittedly including many of the strongest living ones) massacred some 100,000 trollocs who had the advantage of surprise. Extrapolate from there?

OTOH Ituralde's 50 AM couldn't handle the hundreds of thousands at Maradon yet Rand could handle an even greater number on his own.

Shows how much killing ability can differ from channeler to channeler.

[Suttree]

We have a channeler to trolloc ratio of sorts from the scrap at Algarin's manor. The group that was there at the Cleansing plus Logain's boys and girls - a total of less than 100 channelers (Admittedly including many of the strongest living ones) massacred some 100,000 trollocs who had the advantage of surprise. Extrapolate from there?

OTOH Ituralde's 50 AM couldn't handle the hundreds of thousands at Maradon yet Rand could handle an even greater number on his own.

Shows how much killing ability can differ from channeler to channeler.

 

The number at Algarin's manor was said to be in the tens of thousands...

 

KoD "Vows"

 

“Trollocs,” he breathed. That was what it was, thousands of Trol-locs in black, spiked mail spilling out of the trees at a run with scythe-curved swords raised, shaking their spiked spears, some carrying torches. Trollocs as far as he could see to left and right. Not thousands. Tens of thousands.

 

In addition the description of dead at Maradon after Rands channeling was also tens of thousands. Entire legions of Trollocs escaped and fled.

 

ToM

Al'Thor lowered his hand. The field before him was piled with carcasses atop carcasses. Tens of thousands of dead Trollocs smoldering. Directly before al'Thor, a pile a hundred paces wide formed a ridge five feet tall, a mound of dead that had nearly reached him.

 

BS confirmed the numbers were fairly close to each other in both scenes.

 

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

[Maleshub]

We have a channeler to trolloc ratio of sorts from the scrap at Algarin's manor. The group that was there at the Cleansing plus Logain's boys and girls - a total of less than 100 channelers (Admittedly including many of the strongest living ones) massacred some 100,000 trollocs who had the advantage of surprise. Extrapolate from there?

OTOH Ituralde's 50 AM couldn't handle the hundreds of thousands at Maradon yet Rand could handle an even greater number on his own.

Shows how much killing ability can differ from channeler to channeler.

 

Agreed! The books seem to offer different scenes to estimate channeler strength. And in Algarin's manor, Rand's sudden remembrance of AoL weaves saved the day. The Ashaman duplicated them and were able to fend off the sudden attack.

 

And on a side note, I thought that Ituralde had 100 Ashaman in Saldea.

[Vardar]

We have a channeler to trolloc ratio of sorts from the scrap at Algarin's manor. The group that was there at the Cleansing plus Logain's boys and girls - a total of less than 100 channelers (Admittedly including many of the strongest living ones) massacred some 100,000 trollocs who had the advantage of surprise. Extrapolate from there?

OTOH Ituralde's 50 AM couldn't handle the hundreds of thousands at Maradon yet Rand could handle an even greater number on his own.

Shows how much killing ability can differ from channeler to channeler.

 

Agreed! The books seem to offer different scenes to estimate channeler strength. And in Algarin's manor, Rand's sudden remembrance of AoL weaves saved the day. The Ashaman duplicated them and were able to fend off the sudden attack.

 

And on a side note, I thought that Ituralde had 100 Ashaman in Saldea.

 

I thought he had less than 25 for some reason, well that many with him. And most of them were worn out right?

 

We have a channeler to trolloc ratio of sorts from the scrap at Algarin's manor. The group that was there at the Cleansing plus Logain's boys and girls - a total of less than 100 channelers (Admittedly including many of the strongest living ones) massacred some 100,000 trollocs who had the advantage of surprise. Extrapolate from there?

OTOH Ituralde's 50 AM couldn't handle the hundreds of thousands at Maradon yet Rand could handle an even greater number on his own.

Shows how much killing ability can differ from channeler to channeler.

 

The number at Algarin's manor was said to be in the tens of thousands...

 

KoD "Vows"

 

“Trollocs,” he breathed. That was what it was, thousands of Trol-locs in black, spiked mail spilling out of the trees at a run with scythe-curved swords raised, shaking their spiked spears, some carrying torches. Trollocs as far as he could see to left and right. Not thousands. Tens of thousands.

 

In addition the description of dead at Maradon after Rands channeling was also tens of thousands. Entire legions of Trollocs escaped and fled.

 

ToM

Al'Thor lowered his hand. The field before him was piled with carcasses atop carcasses. Tens of thousands of dead Trollocs smoldering. Directly before al'Thor, a pile a hundred paces wide formed a ridge five feet tall, a mound of dead that had nearly reached him.

 

BS confirmed the numbers were fairly close to each other in both scenes.

 

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

 

I'll never understand how the numbers were close when 1) In the first scene they destroy them all, and 2) In the second scene, they had the flying shadowspawn too, and a load of them got away. So even if tens of thousands were dead, a good portion still escaped meaning there were more at the City, as it seemed in the book. (this isn't a dig on you, just another quote that's confused me.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'll never understand how the numbers were close when 1) In the first scene they destroy them all, and 2) In the second scene, they had the flying shadowspawn too, and a load of them got away. So even if tens of thousands were dead, a good portion still escaped meaning there were more at the City, as it seemed in the book. (this isn't a dig on you, just another quote that's confused me.)

 

Note he says that's how many Rand "laid waste" to, so just the ones he killed. Rand killed some tens of thousands of Shadowspawn on both occasions. There were more at Maradon, a heap more, but further back away from the Shadowspawn Rand killed because they got scared and ran. The numbers Rand managed to kill, however, remain similar, just that in KoD, it was all of them, as opposed to Maradon where he broke them, and they ran.

 

There were 50 Asha'man given to Ituralde by Rand, 100 is the number Rand had available, IIRC. However, they can't really compare to Rand or the fight in KoD. For one, Logain had his best men at the manor, and Logain is quite strong. Narishma and Flinn etc.. are veteran asha'man who have travelled with Rand for quite a while at this point, not to mention the Aes Sedai they could link with (not sure if they do, but they should have, like they did at the Cleansing).

 

Ituralde's asha'man are of uncertain quality, but all of the ones we see are previously unheard of, probably newer than the Asha'man from Dumai's Wells, and none would be as strong as Rand or even Logain. If there were one or two powerful ones, the rest would be middling to weak. Plus they were not used for wholesale slaughter. There were far, far too many Trollocs to kill all at once invading Saldaea, Ituralde used them with a seige mentality, waiting for Rand to come and save them. So they were used as Pageboys, Healers and scouts etc..

 

KoD battle lasted a few hours tops, Maradon siege lasted a lot longer, draining away their strength as they channelled to exhaustion. Added to that is the fact that channelers of some type supported the Shadowspawn. Even though there was no direct conflict between channelers (that we saw), the aid they could give the Shadowspawn, and the massive hole in the wall they made, makes it entirely different. Rand can take on thousands of shadowspawn, but 13 channelers would give him a bit of trouble, even indirectly, channelers are a huge advantage.

[Vardar]

I'll never understand how the numbers were close when 1) In the first scene they destroy them all, and 2) In the second scene, they had the flying shadowspawn too, and a load of them got away. So even if tens of thousands were dead, a good portion still escaped meaning there were more at the City, as it seemed in the book. (this isn't a dig on you, just another quote that's confused me.)

 

Note he says that's how many Rand "laid waste" to, so just the ones he killed. Rand killed some tens of thousands of Shadowspawn on both occasions. There were more at Maradon, a heap more, but further back away from the Shadowspawn Rand killed because they got scared and ran. The numbers Rand managed to kill, however, remain similar, just that in KoD, it was all of them, as opposed to Maradon where he broke them, and they ran.

 

There were 50 Asha'man given to Ituralde by Rand, 100 is the number Rand had available, IIRC. However, they can't really compare to Rand or the fight in KoD. For one, Logain had his best men at the manor, and Logain is quite strong. Narishma and Flinn etc.. are veteran asha'man who have travelled with Rand for quite a while at this point, not to mention the Aes Sedai they could link with (not sure if they do, but they should have, like they did at the Cleansing).

 

Ituralde's asha'man are of uncertain quality, but all of the ones we see are previously unheard of, probably newer than the Asha'man from Dumai's Wells, and none would be as strong as Rand or even Logain. If there were one or two powerful ones, the rest would be middling to weak. Plus they were not used for wholesale slaughter. There were far, far too many Trollocs to kill all at once invading Saldaea, Ituralde used them with a seige mentality, waiting for Rand to come and save them. So they were used as Pageboys, Healers and scouts etc..

 

KoD battle lasted a few hours tops, Maradon siege lasted a lot longer, draining away their strength as they channelled to exhaustion. Added to that is the fact that channelers of some type supported the Shadowspawn. Even though there was no direct conflict between channelers (that we saw), the aid they could give the Shadowspawn, and the massive hole in the wall they made, makes it entirely different. Rand can take on thousands of shadowspawn, but 13 channelers would give him a bit of trouble, even indirectly, channelers are a huge advantage.

 

Still, army of trollocs or not, (In my opinion at least) the walls were still standing, yes they had a breach, but the trollocs had to pour into the breach. They're sitting ducks for arrows, channelers, capapults, etc while they're pouring in. Always seemed a bit far fetched that it was suddenly over because the gates fell.

[shortkut]

I'll never understand how the numbers were close when 1) In the first scene they destroy them all, and 2) In the second scene, they had the flying shadowspawn too, and a load of them got away. So even if tens of thousands were dead, a good portion still escaped meaning there were more at the City, as it seemed in the book. (this isn't a dig on you, just another quote that's confused me.)

 

Note he says that's how many Rand "laid waste" to, so just the ones he killed. Rand killed some tens of thousands of Shadowspawn on both occasions. There were more at Maradon, a heap more, but further back away from the Shadowspawn Rand killed because they got scared and ran. The numbers Rand managed to kill, however, remain similar, just that in KoD, it was all of them, as opposed to Maradon where he broke them, and they ran.

 

There were 50 Asha'man given to Ituralde by Rand, 100 is the number Rand had available, IIRC. However, they can't really compare to Rand or the fight in KoD. For one, Logain had his best men at the manor, and Logain is quite strong. Narishma and Flinn etc.. are veteran asha'man who have travelled with Rand for quite a while at this point, not to mention the Aes Sedai they could link with (not sure if they do, but they should have, like they did at the Cleansing).

 

Ituralde's asha'man are of uncertain quality, but all of the ones we see are previously unheard of, probably newer than the Asha'man from Dumai's Wells, and none would be as strong as Rand or even Logain. If there were one or two powerful ones, the rest would be middling to weak. Plus they were not used for wholesale slaughter. There were far, far too many Trollocs to kill all at once invading Saldaea, Ituralde used them with a seige mentality, waiting for Rand to come and save them. So they were used as Pageboys, Healers and scouts etc..

 

KoD battle lasted a few hours tops, Maradon siege lasted a lot longer, draining away their strength as they channelled to exhaustion. Added to that is the fact that channelers of some type supported the Shadowspawn. Even though there was no direct conflict between channelers (that we saw), the aid they could give the Shadowspawn, and the massive hole in the wall they made, makes it entirely different. Rand can take on thousands of shadowspawn, but 13 channelers would give him a bit of trouble, even indirectly, channelers are a huge advantage.

 

Still, army of trollocs or not, (In my opinion at least) the walls were still standing, yes they had a breach, but the trollocs had to pour into the breach. They're sitting ducks for arrows, channelers, capapults, etc while they're pouring in. Always seemed a bit far fetched that it was suddenly over because the gates fell.

arrows are limited, channelers get tired. With the breach there is one less obstacle in the shadowspawn's way