My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[Agitel]

I'm starting to feel like I'm watching political advertisements where one candidate makes a statement and the other candidate grabs it and takes it much further than was meant and strips it of any possible nuance.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the inference in this post. Are you accusing me of twisting things intentionally to sustain my arguments against Brandon? I like to believe that the core of my arguments are always assessment of the work, and my utilisation of quotes a function of extension, not subversion. Certainly, the political framework of your comment suggests that I have some sort of personal agenda, but Brandon and I are not opposing candidates for the same position. I achieve nothing by tearing him down, which is why I'm not trying to tear him down, but help him. Some of this I cannot talk about, some you already know--but everything I know has been made availliable to Brandon, at his unsolicited request.

 

I may be too passionate at times. I concede that element of your comment. But I mean well, by Brandon and by the Wheel.

 

Politician's use the tactic maliciously. You don't, Luckers, and it's debatable about whether you end up stripping his quotes of any nuance at all. If you do, it's driven by passion and high expectations for someone who agreed to take on responsibility for this project. With that said, sometimes it seems like the end result is comparable.

 

Jordan left behind an incredibly complicated series. It would take a miracle worker to capture every detail. Sanderson has stumbled in some cases, but the expectations some fans have would require Sanderson to lock himself up in tower with the series and Jordan's notes for ten years to meditate in the hopes of reaching some type of enlightened state before committing himself to writing.

 

This I disagree with, rather strongly. Firstly because it's a weak argument--by suggesting that the people offering the criticisms had unrealistic ideas about what should have been produced from the beginning you inherently invalidate their criticism of what WAS produced, and all without actually having to address the validacy of their actual comments.

 

The second reason I disagree with this, and the reason I disagree with it so strongly, is that this sort of logic tacitly agrees that Brandon is not a good writer. Oh, not intentionally, invariably those that make it believe they have protected Brandon out of respect--both for him and the difficulties that he is facing in completing Jordan's work--but the fact is they never follow the thought through to its inevitable end, which is that if we allow ourselves to go past forgiving him from not BEING Jordan to forgiving him for all flaws BECAUSE he is not Jordan, we are in fact saying that we both never expected him to do a good job on the Wheel, and that there is no low to which he could sink which would surprise us simply because we were never expecting quality from him in the first place. He brought us plot gratification, and that, folks, is surely enough.

 

Brandon is not Jordan. He is not as good a writer as Jordan was. But that does not mean he is not, or cannot be, a good writer. Blanketing his work with pre-emptive forgiveness for any flaws based on him not being Jordan is EVERY BIT as unfair to him as a writer as expecting him to be Jordan from the outset.

 

I don't expect him to be Jordan. I do expect him to be a good writer, in his own way. I think anything less than both of those beliefs from the fans is insulting to him.

 

One problem I have is that I unintentionally conflate the wide range of criticism into one opinion. I apologize for that. To your first point, I'm referring to specific types of complaints. For example: disappointment over the lack of reference to moon cycles by Sanderson. There's a bar of reasonable expectations, and different fans set that bar at different levels. I'm not going to quibble in this comment over where that bar should be set, but there are some complaints which sit above that bar and some that sit below. I see Brandon having fallen short in some places, and those are legitimate. Other complaints I feel are his failure to hit points well above that bar, and to me those are just distracting and create a negative and pessimistic environment. I don't feel I'm invalidating criticism of what was produced, but merely encouraging reflection on what criticism is valuable and what isn't.

 

This inevitably brings us to your second point. I understand where you're coming from. By not holding Sanderson to standards we disrespect his ability as an author. Your complaints aren't that Brandon is an inferior writer, but that he can writer better than what we were given with tGS and ToM. That's a valid and needed opinion. I'm not arguing that everything is admissible. My point isn't that Sanderson is an inferior writer and so can't be expected to keep up with Jordan, it's that he's effectively an alien in Jordan's world. Any author who's not Jordan would be. This isn't a statement about talent but a statement of familiarity born with the genesis of the idea and nurturing it to near completion. Sanderson's an alien to this world and its culture and has essentially had to learn a second language. People typically write better in their native tongue, at least not without years of dedication and immersion into the new culture and language. You can accuse me of making an excuse for people to let everything pass. I don't believe that, there needs to be standards.

 

In the end you and I are just quibbling about where the bar should be set. I'm not even saying that tGS or ToM were above that bar in all respects. You write well, Luckers, and it strengthens your arguments. You offer an intelligent opinion. Some people agree based on merit. Some of the agreement almost seems sycophantic, though I certainly hope it isn't. I just feel like I can't go into any topic about Brandon without this inevitably coming up and most people chiming in with how they agree. I'd like to see that tempered a bit. I'm not even in great disagreement with you at all, Luckers. My own opinion is in part a reaction to yours being so widely and publicly adopted. I've always been one to try to temper arguments. Sometimes I center myself and hop over the line of debate when I feel like one side's gotten out of line and unbalanced -- that is, I don't change my position, I just try to call out when side goes too far when the other has a point. If tGS and ToM were currently being praised as the best in the series by a public majority you and I would be arguing the same point, even if we took it slightly different places. Perhaps the passage of time will temper this as it did the excessive praise.

 

One additional note: On another social forum I frequent we have something we call "LL Syndrome", where ""LL"" is an acronym for the site name. A movie or a video game or a book would come out and receive excessive praise. Inevitably, it would get "LL Syndrome'd", which is when that work would get universally panned. If people praised it during that time, legions would come in to highlight the flaws and marginalize that person and their opinion. Eventually, the subject would die on the boards, and months or years later someone would bring it up again, and people would have much more honest opinions which lacked either extreme and real discussion would take place again, and sometimes the hype was validated and sometimes not. The phenomenon was so widely recognized it got it's own name. Ironically, even LL Syndrome got LL Syndrome'd, and when the critics started coming people would inevitably come in and start criticizing them for participating in the phenomenon. Then there was yet another counter-reaction where people accused the critics of the critics of going too far. None of this negated the criticism, just added more layers of critics on top of the critics! Life is a series of counter-reactions. C'est la vie.

 

Thankfully, Dragonmount has a much more restrained community than "LL", but I still see strains of that phenomenon, which isn't unique to LL at all. Don't mistake me, your opinions are true and valid and not influenced by that, Luckers. I'm not singling out any individuals here for that. But as general trend? Yes, I see it.

[Agitel]

The ripples perrin feels match up with rand's mega balefire.

 

Not sure what you mean when you say they match? IIRC Rand balefired Natrins Barrow well over a month after the ripples.

i was under the impression that perrin was ahead in the timelines. There is enough time for him to save faile, and meet the whitecloaks before Tam is taken and he sees VoG in TAR. There is not much timeline progression for perrin in TGS because he is ahead already. When rand uses mega balefire, perrin who was closer than anyone who commented on it felt nothing in the BS books. That is because he already felt it. The slight differences in description is the difference in the authors or distance from the balefire.

 

Perrin's (and Elayne's) timeline fell a month or so behind by the end of tGS. At the end of KoD I think everyone's roughly even.

[Suttree]

The ripples perrin feels match up with rand's mega balefire.

 

Not sure what you mean when you say they match? IIRC Rand balefired Natrins Barrow well over a month after the ripples.

i was under the impression that perrin was ahead in the timelines. There is enough time for him to save faile, and meet the whitecloaks before Tam is taken and he sees VoG in TAR. There is not much timeline progression for perrin in TGS because he is ahead already. When rand uses mega balefire, perrin who was closer than anyone who commented on it felt nothing in the BS books. That is because he already felt it. The slight differences in description is the difference in the authors or distance from the balefire.

 

According to Steven Coopers timeline there is over a month between the two events.

[David Selig]

But BS isn't at the Tolkien, Shakespere, other author who is a must read if you know how to speak English level. If RJ had of finished the WoT it would of been along the lines of War and Peace, something everyone says you have to read but is too long for most people to do so. With BS finishing it, it is still one of the greatest fantasy epics written, but it isn't really something that will get a lot of traction outside of fantasy circles.

Wait - you think that if Jordan had finished WoT, it would've been considered to be a classic of the same rank as War and Peace? Really?

[Suttree]

This inevitably brings us to your second point. I understand where you're coming from. By not holding Sanderson to standards we disrespect his ability as an author. Your complaints aren't that Brandon is an inferior writer, but that he can writer better than what we were given with tGS and ToM. That's a valid and needed opinion. I'm not arguing that everything is admissible. My point isn't that Sanderson is an inferior writer and so can't be expected to keep up with Jordan, it's that he's effectively an alien in Jordan's world. Any author who's not Jordan would be. This isn't a statement about talent but a statement of familiarity born with the genesis of the idea and nurturing it to near completion. Sanderson's an alien to this world and its culture and has essentially had to learn a second language. People typically write better in their native tongue, at least not without years of dedication and immersion into the new culture and language. You can accuse me of making an excuse for people to let everything pass. I don't believe that, there needs to be standards.

 

This speaks to the point I was making above. Now that people have gone back with through the books during rereads it is hard not to notice some of the more glaring issues. Now I realize not everyone goes over the books with that attention to detail but there are times when I imagine even a more casual reader will be clipping along and then get yanked right out of the narrative. To me it seems as if Brandon's progression as an author has seemed to stall out or even regress given ToM. I don't feel he has kept pace with some of the other talented young authors out there after showing great promise with Mistborn. Once again this isn't an issue of Brandon not being as good as RJ but he is writing in the world of the wheel. This affects RJ's legacy in the long run and it is not unfair, indeed it is a sign of respect to push for Brandon to be the best author he can be.

 

But BS isn't at the Tolkien, Shakespere, other author who is a must read if you know how to speak English level. If RJ had of finished the WoT it would of been along the lines of War and Peace, something everyone says you have to read but is too long for most people to do so. With BS finishing it, it is still one of the greatest fantasy epics written, but it isn't really something that will get a lot of traction outside of fantasy circles.

Wait - you think that if Jordan had finished WoT, it would've been considered to be a classic of the same rank as War and Peace? Really?

 

Things like this really need to be kept in perspective. RJ was a great fantasy writer whom we all love but no, his writing does not hold up when compared to the best outside of genre.

[Agitel]

This inevitably brings us to your second point. I understand where you're coming from. By not holding Sanderson to standards we disrespect his ability as an author. Your complaints aren't that Brandon is an inferior writer, but that he can writer better than what we were given with tGS and ToM. That's a valid and needed opinion. I'm not arguing that everything is admissible. My point isn't that Sanderson is an inferior writer and so can't be expected to keep up with Jordan, it's that he's effectively an alien in Jordan's world. Any author who's not Jordan would be. This isn't a statement about talent but a statement of familiarity born with the genesis of the idea and nurturing it to near completion. Sanderson's an alien to this world and its culture and has essentially had to learn a second language. People typically write better in their native tongue, at least not without years of dedication and immersion into the new culture and language. You can accuse me of making an excuse for people to let everything pass. I don't believe that, there needs to be standards.

 

This speaks to the point I was making above. Now that people have gone back with through the books during rereads it is hard not to notice some of the more glaring issues. Now I realize not everyone goes over the books with that attention to detail but there are times when I imagine even a more casual reader will be clipping along and then get yanked right out of the narrative. To me it seems as if Brandon's progression as an author has seemed to stall out or even regress given ToM. I don't feel he has kept pace with some of the other talented young authors out there after showing great promise with Mistborn. Once again this isn't an issue of Brandon not being as good as RJ but he is writing in the world of the wheel. This affects RJ's legacy in the long run and it is not unfair, indeed it is a sign of respect to push for Brandon to be the best author he can be.

 

It's frustrating, however, to go into any topic comparing and contrasting Jordan and Sanderson, or indeed any topic about Sanderson's writing, and find it has become completely bogged down with criticism. The problem isn't the existence of criticism, but that it completely dominates the discussion.

 

But BS isn't at the Tolkien, Shakespere, other author who is a must read if you know how to speak English level. If RJ had of finished the WoT it would of been along the lines of War and Peace, something everyone says you have to read but is too long for most people to do so. With BS finishing it, it is still one of the greatest fantasy epics written, but it isn't really something that will get a lot of traction outside of fantasy circles.

Wait - you think that if Jordan had finished WoT, it would've been considered to be a classic of the same rank as War and Peace? Really?

 

Things like this really need to be kept in perspective. RJ was a great fantasy writer whom we all love but no, his writing does not hold up when compared to the best outside of genre.

 

How will WoT stand within the genre of epic fantasy, however? It's length will be a deterrence to some. But will it remain a classic if Sanderson does an admirable job with A Memory of Light? BenevolentCow may have taken it a little too far with implying that it would rank outside of its genre with War and Peace, but what about within?

[Suttree]

This inevitably brings us to your second point. I understand where you're coming from. By not holding Sanderson to standards we disrespect his ability as an author. Your complaints aren't that Brandon is an inferior writer, but that he can writer better than what we were given with tGS and ToM. That's a valid and needed opinion. I'm not arguing that everything is admissible. My point isn't that Sanderson is an inferior writer and so can't be expected to keep up with Jordan, it's that he's effectively an alien in Jordan's world. Any author who's not Jordan would be. This isn't a statement about talent but a statement of familiarity born with the genesis of the idea and nurturing it to near completion. Sanderson's an alien to this world and its culture and has essentially had to learn a second language. People typically write better in their native tongue, at least not without years of dedication and immersion into the new culture and language. You can accuse me of making an excuse for people to let everything pass. I don't believe that, there needs to be standards.

 

This speaks to the point I was making above. Now that people have gone back with through the books during rereads it is hard not to notice some of the more glaring issues. Now I realize not everyone goes over the books with that attention to detail but there are times when I imagine even a more casual reader will be clipping along and then get yanked right out of the narrative. To me it seems as if Brandon's progression as an author has seemed to stall out or even regress given ToM. I don't feel he has kept pace with some of the other talented young authors out there after showing great promise with Mistborn. Once again this isn't an issue of Brandon not being as good as RJ but he is writing in the world of the wheel. This affects RJ's legacy in the long run and it is not unfair, indeed it is a sign of respect to push for Brandon to be the best author he can be.

 

It's frustrating, however, to go into any topic comparing and contrasting Jordan and Sanderson, or indeed any topic about Sanderson's writing, and find it has become completely bogged down with criticism. The problem isn't the existence of criticism, but that it really just weighs down the discussion.

 

But BS isn't at the Tolkien, Shakespere, other author who is a must read if you know how to speak English level. If RJ had of finished the WoT it would of been along the lines of War and Peace, something everyone says you have to read but is too long for most people to do so. With BS finishing it, it is still one of the greatest fantasy epics written, but it isn't really something that will get a lot of traction outside of fantasy circles.

Wait - you think that if Jordan had finished WoT, it would've been considered to be a classic of the same rank as War and Peace? Really?

 

Things like this really need to be kept in perspective. RJ was a great fantasy writer whom we all love but no, his writing does not hold up when compared to the best outside of genre.

 

How will WoT stand within the genre of epic fantasy, however? It's length will be a deterrence to some. But will it remain a classic if Sanderson does an admirable job with A Memory of Light? BenevolentCow may have taken it a little too far with implying that it would rank outside of its genre with War and Peace, but what about within?

 

Yes, if they hit a home run with AMoL I think it will consistently be mentioned up towards the top of the class in genre. I am holding out hope that the extra time taken to finish will make a noticeable difference in the quality. A big issue with ToM was lack of polish and just fixing that alone would go a long way. In addition we know RJ wrote the ending so that should help close things as well.

[Sid]

One problem I have is that I unintentionally conflate the wide range of criticism into one opinion. I apologize for that. To your first point, I'm referring to specific types of complaints. For example: disappointment over the lack of reference to moon cycles by Sanderson. There's a bar of reasonable expectations, and different fans set that bar at different levels. I'm not going to quibble in this comment over where that bar should be set, but there are some complaints which sit above that bar and some that sit below. I see Brandon having fallen short in some places, and those are legitimate. Other complaints I feel are his failure to hit points well above that bar, and to me those are just distracting and create a negative and pessimistic environment. I don't feel I'm invalidating criticism of what was produced, but merely encouraging reflection on what criticism is valuable and what isn't.

 

I suppose I set my bar of expectations rather high. It's not just about moon cycles, but about any type of cross-storyline reference points. If the timelines are going to be as skewed as they are, then there should really be more to let us know where and when we're reading about. Yet this is a relatively small thing compared to the actual jarring instances of being taken out of the story by unusual language or changing well-known expressions. I know they've taken a lot more time to get AMoL 'right' and I eagerly await it's release, but I can't help but think Jordan released things at the pace he did for a reason, maintaining his standard of quality. As neat as it was to get WoT books released so close to each other on the calendar, they both suffered a great deal from rushing.

[shortkut]

The ripples perrin feels match up with rand's mega balefire.

 

Not sure what you mean when you say they match? IIRC Rand balefired Natrins Barrow well over a month after the ripples.

i was under the impression that perrin was ahead in the timelines. There is enough time for him to save faile, and meet the whitecloaks before Tam is taken and he sees VoG in TAR. There is not much timeline progression for perrin in TGS because he is ahead already. When rand uses mega balefire, perrin who was closer than anyone who commented on it felt nothing in the BS books. That is because he already felt it. The slight differences in description is the difference in the authors or distance from the balefire.

 

According to Steven Coopers timeline there is over a month between the two events.

is his timeline infallible? By his account he stopped after kod. it makes more sense for perrin to be ahead because it allows everything to fall into place in the BS books

[Suttree]

The ripples perrin feels match up with rand's mega balefire.

 

Not sure what you mean when you say they match? IIRC Rand balefired Natrins Barrow well over a month after the ripples.

i was under the impression that perrin was ahead in the timelines. There is enough time for him to save faile, and meet the whitecloaks before Tam is taken and he sees VoG in TAR. There is not much timeline progression for perrin in TGS because he is ahead already. When rand uses mega balefire, perrin who was closer than anyone who commented on it felt nothing in the BS books. That is because he already felt it. The slight differences in description is the difference in the authors or distance from the balefire.

 

According to Steven Coopers timeline there is over a month between the two events.

is his timeline infallible? By his account he stopped after kod. it makes more sense for perrin to be ahead because it allows everything to fall into place in the BS books

 

He stopped after TGS and through up his hands at ToM and yes he says it is correct although the exact placing may skew slightly. Nevertheless there would not be an error of over 30 days.

 

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

 

Perrin's ripples April 8, Rand's balefire May 21.

[Knivy]

Was that ever confirmed to be balescream? I always thought it was a bubble of evil..

[shortkut]

But he has perrin and faile feeling ripples days apart...

[Suttree]

But he has perrin and faile feeling ripples days apart...

 

With a popular theory being it is tied to Demandred somehow. I haven't seen his timeline called into question and most certainly not for being off by as much as your suggesting.

[shortkut]

That would mean 6 different unexplained giant blasts of balefire to cause 6 ripples as opposed to only one explained giant blast and rand's timeline being behind. Almost all of TGS was devoted to Rand which brought him up to and past Perrin. One of those makes more sense, is simpler, and leaves less unexplained

[Suttree]

That would mean 6 different unexplained giant blasts of balefire to cause 6 ripples as opposed to only one explained giant blast and rand's timeline being behind. Almost all of TGS was devoted to Rand which brought him up to and past Perrin. One of those makes more sense, is simpler, and leaves less unexplained

 

LoC

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce – there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter – each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he. "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey."

 

 

Theoryland Thu Jan 06

@Southpaw2014 @BrandonSandrson - I've always enjoyed this theory about the Lord of Chaos. It's fun. http://bit.ly/fghYSz

 

BrandonSandrson Thu Jan 06

@Theoryland @Southpaw2014 That is a good theory for people to be reading.

 

First off I don't think we have any idea whether it would take 6 individual blasts to produce that effect so not sure why you focus on that. Second when faced with evidence that is excepted as a source throughout the WoT fandom, you refuse to give over because it contradicts and assumption you've made. Either way your initial point about Brandon not having any worse difficulties with the timeline compared to RJ has been shown by other posters to be unequivocally false. If you feel like digging back through the books and finding proof that SC's timeline is incorrect, by over a month for the first time since it inception(hint: it doesn't exist), by all means go ahead. I wish you luck in that endeavour but until you do I'm going to need something besides personnel opinion if you wish to continue this discussion.

[Kahsm]

Well... there was that little incident with the "Flashback" in TEotW.... failed technique, whatever.... skipping backwards was likely more jarring to the most amount of readers than just being a month off I would bet.

 

Given my reputation, I should state I'm not really arguing for that, just stating that someone could probably make one and that "unequivocally" false may be a bit strong.

[Suttree]

Well... there was that little incident with the "Flashback" in TEotW.... failed technique, whatever.... skipping backwards was likely more jarring to the most amount of readers than just being a month off I would bet.

 

Yeah, that was already addressed earlier in the thread as the one exception where RJ may have lost the integrity of the timeline. Regardless the many examples given for Brandon race straight past that. Contradiction issues, Tam being in two places at the same time, characters hearing rumors of events that haven't happened yet for them etc.

 

As an aside what Short and I are discussing is he claimed the Perrin's ripples were a result of Rand's balefiring Natrin's barrow. He refuses to believe Steven Cooper's timeline that shows Rand's scene came well over 30 days after.

 

Edit: Thank you Sid for pulling that evidence.

[Sid]

That would mean 6 different unexplained giant blasts of balefire to cause 6 ripples as opposed to only one explained giant blast and rand's timeline being behind. Almost all of TGS was devoted to Rand which brought him up to and past Perrin. One of those makes more sense, is simpler, and leaves less unexplained

 

I know TGS had its troubles with placemarkers for timing, but even without Jordan's tight timeline skills we can easily show that Rand's balefire happened well after the ripples:

 

We can safely assume Faile felt ripples either before or at the latest the same time as Perrin did, though Perrin's were numerous chapters later with several events in between.

Perrin feels ripples before they attack Malden along with the Seanchan.

Banner General Tylee Khirgan fights that battle and then marches to Ebou Dar.

Tuon receives now Lt. General Tylee in an audience in Ebou Dar and decides to meet with Rand.

Rand and Tuon meet on Toman Head.

After that, Rand uses balefire to destroy Natrin's Barrow.

 

Therefore we can conclude that Rand's actions happened quite a long time after Perrin or Faile felt anything.

[shortkut]

That would mean 6 different unexplained giant blasts of balefire to cause 6 ripples as opposed to only one explained giant blast and rand's timeline being behind. Almost all of TGS was devoted to Rand which brought him up to and past Perrin. One of those makes more sense, is simpler, and leaves less unexplained

First off I don't think we have any idea whether it would take 6 individual blasts to produce that effect so not sure why you focus on that. Second when faced with evidence that is excepted as a source throughout the WoT fandom, you refuse to give over because it contradicts and assumption you've made. Either way your initial point about Brandon not having any worse difficulties with the timeline compared to RJ has been shown by other posters to be unequivocally false. If you feel like digging back through the books and finding proof that SC's timeline is incorrect, by over a month for the first time since it inception(hint: it doesn't exist), by all means go ahead. I wish you luck in that endeavour but until you do I'm going to need something besides personnel opinion if you wish to continue this discussion.

if rand created only 1 ripple with ntrin's barrow, 3 would be needed for faile to feel 3. if she and perrin felt different ones then another 3 were needed. these sets of three would need to have happened in rapid succession for the ripples to be felt as they were. 2 sets of 3 is 6. that is where i got 6 from

 

i was not trying to say BS did the same job with the timeline as RJ. i was saying they both made mistakes.

 

i did not agree with the timeline because i forgot the evidence sid posted, and it is possible for someone to make a mistake. i would not have been surprised to have RJ put the effects of the ripples in before the readers saw the cause just to RAFO us. additionally, there were very few timeline markers for perrin and faile going back to CoT. it made more sense if it was one event rather than up to 7 different events for each ripple we have seen, with only one of them being explained. occam's razor works for lots of things, even WoT sometimes.

 

 

I know TGS had its troubles with placemarkers for timing, but even without Jordan's tight timeline skills we can easily show that Rand's balefire happened well after the ripples:

 

We can safely assume Faile felt ripples either before or at the latest the same time as Perrin did, though Perrin's were numerous chapters later with several events in between.

Perrin feels ripples before they attack Malden along with the Seanchan.

Banner General Tylee Khirgan fights that battle and then marches to Ebou Dar.

Tuon receives now Lt. General Tylee in an audience in Ebou Dar and decides to meet with Rand.

Rand and Tuon meet on Toman Head.

After that, Rand uses balefire to destroy Natrin's Barrow.

 

Therefore we can conclude that Rand's actions happened quite a long time after Perrin or Faile felt anything.

i forgot tuon met with tylee before meeting with rand and natrin's barrow. without that, my theory made more sense

[Suttree]

i was not trying to say BS did the same job with the timeline as RJ. i was saying they both made mistakes.

 

Sorry, but when you started your answer with "nothing" to someone asking what BS is doing wrong that RJ did right, and then seemed to insinuate that it's only more noticeable because Perrin is behind, that is how it came across. I mean it didn't really address any of the major issues. Think the answer has been fleshed out by others for Allota though so no worries.

[Luckers]

The difference between good enough to be readable and good enough to be obsessed over for decades is the problem. For the vast majority of people who read WoT, BS's work is good enough to finish the series, just name recognition will guarantee it a place in the Times best sellers, if not number one. For the people who come to places like here, people who have taken significant time out of their lives to think about WoT, the prose and subtleties are what make the series readable after the tenth time.

 

See, again, I find this sort of point to be insulting to Brandon--and I know you didn't mean it to be, and furthermore it is in fact a very reasonable position to have--but I do think we owe Brandon the respect of expecting more than simple readability. I mean the man just launched Way of Kings, the beginning of his own overarching series that, by its nature, requires the sort of decade-spanning obsession that your talking about. If he doesn't have the skill to pull it off... well, it's a sad thing.

 

That's not to say I disagree with your assessment. Casually, the books provide plot gratification tinged with fan gratification, and in enough quantity to hold them during a casual read for even the most obsessive fans--just read my initial reviews of either book for proof--but over time I suspect neither fan--the casual or the hardcore--will return to those books as they have Jordan's, and it is that re-readability, both casual and obsessive, that holds all the great series. From A Song of Ice and Fire to the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

 

It's funny... I'm probably the man's biggest critic, but I do it because I respect him. I'm kind of like Faile to his Perrin--I nag out of love, and expect a fight in return.

 

BTW I keep thinking this, but I've never said it, I love your handle BenevolentCow.

 

I'm starting to feel like I'm watching political advertisements where one candidate makes a statement and the other candidate grabs it and takes it much further than was meant and strips it of any possible nuance.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the inference in this post. Are you accusing me of twisting things intentionally to sustain my arguments against Brandon? I like to believe that the core of my arguments are always assessment of the work, and my utilisation of quotes a function of extension, not subversion. Certainly, the political framework of your comment suggests that I have some sort of personal agenda, but Brandon and I are not opposing candidates for the same position. I achieve nothing by tearing him down, which is why I'm not trying to tear him down, but help him. Some of this I cannot talk about, some you already know--but everything I know has been made availliable to Brandon, at his unsolicited request.

 

I may be too passionate at times. I concede that element of your comment. But I mean well, by Brandon and by the Wheel.

 

Politician's use the tactic maliciously. You don't, Luckers, and it's debatable about whether you end up stripping his quotes of any nuance at all. If you do, it's driven by passion and high expectations for someone who agreed to take on responsibility for this project. With that said, sometimes it seems like the end result is comparable.

 

I suppose its nice that you think I'm not being malicious, but you are still suggesting that I'm waging some sort of intentional tactical campeign against Brandon. I'm not, I promise. I'm literally just giving my thoughts on topics as they come up.

 

Is this really how I come across? I'm not railing at you Agitel, you're not the first to suggest this--Terez even once compared me to an Aes Sedai in terms of my manipulative comments--it's just... not the favourite image of me that I've ever seen presented.

 

Jordan left behind an incredibly complicated series. It would take a miracle worker to capture every detail. Sanderson has stumbled in some cases, but the expectations some fans have would require Sanderson to lock himself up in tower with the series and Jordan's notes for ten years to meditate in the hopes of reaching some type of enlightened state before committing himself to writing.

 

This I disagree with, rather strongly. Firstly because it's a weak argument--by suggesting that the people offering the criticisms had unrealistic ideas about what should have been produced from the beginning you inherently invalidate their criticism of what WAS produced, and all without actually having to address the validacy of their actual comments.

 

The second reason I disagree with this, and the reason I disagree with it so strongly, is that this sort of logic tacitly agrees that Brandon is not a good writer. Oh, not intentionally, invariably those that make it believe they have protected Brandon out of respect--both for him and the difficulties that he is facing in completing Jordan's work--but the fact is they never follow the thought through to its inevitable end, which is that if we allow ourselves to go past forgiving him from not BEING Jordan to forgiving him for all flaws BECAUSE he is not Jordan, we are in fact saying that we both never expected him to do a good job on the Wheel, and that there is no low to which he could sink which would surprise us simply because we were never expecting quality from him in the first place. He brought us plot gratification, and that, folks, is surely enough.

 

Brandon is not Jordan. He is not as good a writer as Jordan was. But that does not mean he is not, or cannot be, a good writer. Blanketing his work with pre-emptive forgiveness for any flaws based on him not being Jordan is EVERY BIT as unfair to him as a writer as expecting him to be Jordan from the outset.

 

I don't expect him to be Jordan. I do expect him to be a good writer, in his own way. I think anything less than both of those beliefs from the fans is insulting to him.

 

One problem I have is that I unintentionally conflate the wide range of criticism into one opinion. I apologize for that. To your first point, I'm referring to specific types of complaints. For example: disappointment over the lack of reference to moon cycles by Sanderson. There's a bar of reasonable expectations, and different fans set that bar at different levels. I'm not going to quibble in this comment over where that bar should be set, but there are some complaints which sit above that bar and some that sit below. I see Brandon having fallen short in some places, and those are legitimate. Other complaints I feel are his failure to hit points well above that bar, and to me those are just distracting and create a negative and pessimistic environment. I don't feel I'm invalidating criticism of what was produced, but merely encouraging reflection on what criticism is valuable and what isn't.

 

I get that. I also have no problem with Brandon not tracking moon phases--yes, Jordan doing so was cool, but it was not the sort of thing any writer should be doing--it was a quirk of Jordan's writing, not a skill that a writer should have as a pre-requisite.

 

There is probably a good distinction in there about what is and what is not reasonable criticism. Another example, and one that sometimes gets me, is that Brandon tends to use contractions more than Jordan--but you won't really see me talking about that, for all that I prefer Jordan's style, because it is a stylistic difference, and Brandon shouldn't be judged for having a different writing style.

 

This inevitably brings us to your second point. I understand where you're coming from. By not holding Sanderson to standards we disrespect his ability as an author. Your complaints aren't that Brandon is an inferior writer, but that he can writer better than what we were given with tGS and ToM. That's a valid and needed opinion. I'm not arguing that everything is admissible. My point isn't that Sanderson is an inferior writer and so can't be expected to keep up with Jordan, it's that he's effectively an alien in Jordan's world. Any author who's not Jordan would be. This isn't a statement about talent but a statement of familiarity born with the genesis of the idea and nurturing it to near completion. Sanderson's an alien to this world and its culture and has essentially had to learn a second language. People typically write better in their native tongue, at least not without years of dedication and immersion into the new culture and language. You can accuse me of making an excuse for people to let everything pass. I don't believe that, there needs to be standards.

 

 

And that's fair.

 

In the end you and I are just quibbling about where the bar should be set. I'm not even saying that tGS or ToM were above that bar in all respects. You write well, Luckers, and it strengthens your arguments. You offer an intelligent opinion. Some people agree based on merit. Some of the agreement almost seems sycophantic, though I certainly hope it isn't. I just feel like I can't go into any topic about Brandon without this inevitably coming up and most people chiming in with how they agree. I'd like to see that tempered a bit. I'm not even in great disagreement with you at all, Luckers. My own opinion is in part a reaction to yours being so widely and publicly adopted. I've always been one to try to temper arguments. Sometimes I center myself and hop over the line of debate when I feel like one side's gotten out of line and unbalanced -- that is, I don't change my position, I just try to call out when side goes too far when the other has a point. If tGS and ToM were currently being praised as the best in the series by a public majority you and I would be arguing the same point, even if we took it slightly different places. Perhaps the passage of time will temper this as it did the excessive praise.

 

I can actually prove that's not true--just look at the responses to me arguing that Cadsuane is cool, or that Lews Therin was real. People don't just agree with me because I'm me, or because I speak well--though I do thank you for the praise.

 

But thanks for your reply. I think we're not as far from disagreeing with each other as it may have initially appeared.

[TristanWebb]

Bringing on a writer whose strengths seem to be polar opposites of RJ's is irritating to fans. RJ was great with prose sure, but managing timelines and the battle sequences are amazing, and BS has said he has trouble with those. Most of the time it doesn't matter, as non-obsessive fans won't notice a month between people 2 countries away, but the dual Tam's is blatant and give rise to assumptions about forsaken that I know I had to come here halfway through reading to dispel.

[shortkut]

i was not trying to say BS did the same job with the timeline as RJ. i was saying they both made mistakes.

 

Sorry, but when you started your answer with "nothing" to someone asking what BS is doing wrong that RJ did right, and then seemed to insinuate that it's only more noticeable because Perrin is behind, that is how it came across. I mean it didn't really address any of the major issues. Think the answer has been fleshed out by others for Allota though so no worries.

i can see how it can be interpreted that way. He/she appeared to be someone who had not noticed the issue. I was trying to answer the question in a way that would not sway his.her opinion one way or the other as to whether it was bothersome or not. I personally was confused as f*ck until perrin saw VoG (and then annoyed afterwards). If this person didn't mind, i didn't want to ruin it for them.

[Agitel]

Bringing on a writer whose strengths seem to be polar opposites of RJ's is irritating to fans. RJ was great with prose sure, but managing timelines and the battle sequences are amazing, and BS has said he has trouble with those. Most of the time it doesn't matter, as non-obsessive fans won't notice a month between people 2 countries away, but the dual Tam's is blatant and give rise to assumptions about forsaken that I know I had to come here halfway through reading to dispel.

 

People seem to be conflating two separate issues with the timeline. One is when timelines actually conflict. The other is when you have two plots, one a month behind the other, alternating back and forth between each other. Did Sanderson mess up the dates so that Tam was literally in two places at once? Or are people just talking about how awkward the jumping backwards and forwards a month in time was, especially with Tam making the issue painfully obvious?

 

What I don't understand is why Sanderson didn't include a note before the first chapter about the out-of-sync plots.

[Luckers]

Bringing on a writer whose strengths seem to be polar opposites of RJ's is irritating to fans. RJ was great with prose sure, but managing timelines and the battle sequences are amazing, and BS has said he has trouble with those. Most of the time it doesn't matter, as non-obsessive fans won't notice a month between people 2 countries away, but the dual Tam's is blatant and give rise to assumptions about forsaken that I know I had to come here halfway through reading to dispel.

 

People seem to be conflating two separate issues with the timeline. One is when timelines actually conflict. The other is when you have two plots, one a month behind the other, alternating back and forth between each other. Did Sanderson mess up the dates so that Tam was literally in two places at once? Or are people just talking about how awkward the jumping backwards and forwards a month in time was, especially with Tam making the issue painfully obvious?

 

What I don't understand is why Sanderson didn't include a note before the first chapter about the out-of-sync plots.

 

Because he didn't realise. He openly castigated the beta's for not telling him about this...