My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[avernite]

For those who say the books "need to wrap up" that is entirely missing the point. There are far too many times in TGS and ToM where Brandon raced from A to B with blunt prose and zero subtlety. Wrapping up is all good, but there is a way to do so beyond lowest common denominator plot work. So while posters like Kael can shrilly protest our posts and hint at secret plots to bring Brandon down within the fandom, per usual he is missing the point entirely. Instead of focusing on fellow posters, people that disagree would be far better served showing examples of how Brandon has in their estimation been doing a great job with the series. I would be interested to have a debate on the topic if someone would do so.

 

I think the problem is those people who don't see the big problem are going to have a hard time sifting through the books to find something BS clearly wrote, and so will have a hard time distinguishing a great something he wrote from something RJ wrote. On the other hand, as BS was responsible for the final work, the worst parts of the books are most likely his anyway (since if the level of RJs writing wasn't good enough yet BS would've gone over it) and the people giving detailed critique seem most aware of who wrote what anyway, finding the parts where he can be criticised seems much easier to me.

[bigdoug1971]

I enjoyed the books a lot more when Robert Jordan was doing the writing and I thank God he left all those notes to be followed to finish up the story. I enjoy all of it, both the characters and the plot. What I don't enjoy is the wait. I guess I'm not a patient person and I gues I find myself in the group of just wanting to know the ending. I don't care about outriggers. I don't care about anything but the rest of the story. I've enjoyed the books that BS has put together from the notes, and I'm appreciative of Hariett going through the drafts to make it a masterpiece. I'm sick of waiting. And that goes for GRR Martin as well!!!

[Mario Cole]

BS doesn't try? A quote from Airplane is appropriate;

 

"[Kareem's getting mad]

Joey: And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.

Roger Murdock: [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes. "

[safwd]

I used to think along similar lines, and attributed the shortcoming in the books to the processed being rushed(not enough time spent writing and a rushed editing process). Unfortunately some of those in the know have made it pretty clear that Brandon doesn't seem to be trying his best and that is a fairly significant issue.

 

Been awhile since I posted here but this comment provoked me enough to respond.

 

Suttree, I usually find your posts well thought out even when I don't agree with them but I find this assertion that BS isn't trying his hardest to be beyond laughably unbelievable. I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that he hasn't worked his ass off on this project and given it his absolute all. I've heard him give nothing but the highest of respect for RJ and the WoT and his desire to give it the best possible ending he's capable of.

 

To feel that he hasn't done a good job with that is one thing. To suggest it's because he's lazy and not trying is something else. And I find it pretty crappy without any proof to back it up.

 

Here is an example of what I was referring to from another thread Mark. Since that post others whom I trust have said much the same. Let me be clear, the opinions on the matter are not coming from dubious sources. These are people I respect and whom have a very good idea of what goes on in the process.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

 

I think the bolded item is an important distinction though. There's a difference between not trying (laziness) and knowing your limitations. Perhaps BS believes that leaving those types of issues to Team Jordan results in a better end product. Let's say that I'm painting my house and come across a wall with a hole in it. Let's say I'm a pretty good painter but I'm not that great at construction type work. Would it be laziness if I called in a handyman to patch up the hole before I painted over it? Or is that just me acknowledging something I can't do that well and letting someone else handle it so the end product looks as good as it can? And despite the fact that I greatly respect Luckers and his posts, I think he's a bit unfairly or overly critical regarding BS's work.

 

Well stated Mr. Grayson, exactly what i was thinking.

There is certainly a difference between not trying and saying "I am not going to be able to write that like Robert Jordan".

To make the statement that he is not trying you imply that he is not doing the best he can, that is different than him knowing what he cannot do and relying on others, like a top notch editing team, to help make the work closer match the previous work.

Everyone would have loved the conclusion of these books to be seemless from the rest of the story, well maybe not everyone since there are people on here who state they like the new style better, but that was not going to happen when Mr. Jordan passed away.

Brandon Sanderson is a professional writer who put his work on hold to finish a story that he loves as best as he could.

To state that he isnt trying states that he doesnt care, and if he doesnt care why would he put his own work on hold to finish this one. I doubt that if Brandon would have said no the story would have died, they would have found another way for it to get done.

Critique his style all you want, that is the right of any reader, but it is out of bounds to critique is commitment. Finishing this story has taken up the lionshare of the last 4 years of his life.

[Prettyfox]

Here's my own take on it: I like both of them.

 

I loved the way Robert Jordan created the world, and I loved how he really got into the depths of his characters. But it was meant to be a six book series. Robert Jordan was a master at writing, but he let himself get carried away with creating the world, and he created too many sub plots, to many strings of the story that had to be closed together at the end.

 

Brandon Sanderson was at a bad spot when he took over the book, because he needed to end the book with what he had. If robert jordan was still writing the series I'm sure we would have even more books to go through before the end. Brandon Sanderson has done an excellent job at taking the story lines and bringing them to a close. Let's also not forget that the manuscript for the memory of light was finished already, Sanderson just had to bring the books to words.

[TheAngryDruid]

I've been one who has always preferred Books 1-6, with Shadow Rising being my favorite. So I guess I was in the camp that was disappointed with the next five, particularly PoD, Winter's Heart, and of course COT. But I've been doing my first full re-read in quite some time. And I have to admit, Winter's Heart was pretty good. The Elayne/Aviendha adoption scene. Mat's return. Rand's trip to Far Madding. Cadsuane's chapters. And, of course, the Cleansing.

 

In CoT right now, and it isn't that bad. Of course, there are no resolutions, so I haven't hit that yet. KoD was better. Point being, I've softened on my: "books 7-11 were crap" (or at least 7-10) line.

 

As a consequence, I no longer think the series needed to be rescued because of the depths it had descended to. But the fact remains that is did need rescuing due to RJ's passing.

 

That simple fact along makes me grateful for what Brandon has done. I thought tGS was VERY good. My favorite book since Shadow Rising. Ironically, despite the OP's characterization of BS not developing characters and focusing to much on plot, tGS was good BECAUSE of the development and journey's of Rand and Egwene.

 

Now, I was much more disappointed in ToM. I thought a lot of plot gratification, but very little satisfaction in a lot of it. Still, Faile and Galad took wonderful journeys, and even Gawyn (finally!). And Perrin's forging of the Hammer. Good stuff, but a little rushed.

 

However, I don't think the rushed nature of things is all Brandon's fault. An awful lot of plot lines to wrap up. And three huge books, and 5-6 years trying to appease a rabid fan base (some of which will hate him) is an awful lot of time to devote to a series he never started in the first place. 2-3 more books, I think, is asking too much.

 

I'm worried about some of the mistakes, and there being too much concentration on plot wrap ups as well. My biggest criticism (seen first here) is that BS tends to make characters look good (or smart) by making others look stupid, and this leads to some scenes that are hard to believe. Still, RJ did this from time to time. Heck, Elayne and ton of AS in Caemlyn apparently forgot about linking for 2 books. Really RJ?

 

Regardless of how one comes down on the RJ/BS split, I think we can all be glad the series will be completed, thankful to Brandon for doing it, and cherish the great moments the last two books have provided (Egwene repelling the Seanchan attack, her confronting Elaida, becoming Amyrlin, Verin's reveal, the purge, Vein's of Gold; Perrin's forging of the Hammer, Moiraine's rescue, etc.).

[Suttree]

Regardless of how one comes down on the RJ/BS split, I think we can all be glad the series will be completed, thankful to Brandon for doing it, and cherish the great moments the last two books have provided (Egwene repelling the Seanchan attack, her confronting Elaida, becoming Amyrlin, Verin's reveal, the purge, Vein's of Gold; Perrin's forging of the Hammer, Moiraine's rescue, etc.).

 

Cheers to that.

[Kahsm]

Magic can defy physics. Stop trying to work it out. We don't know how everything in our world works so how can we apply that feeble understanding to a made up world with made up laws of physics? Yes RJ tried to base the world off of our physics, but he himself said he was at least 15 years behind on the literature.

 

WOT Magic becomes part of the physics of the world. They are not indistinguishable in the WOT. And if the WOT really was "our world" the same would be for us. I actually agree with your point, but I disagree with your reasoning. It's not that channeling cancels out logic, it's that the logic in wot simply cannot work with our own. That's why you can't really apply our sciences to theirs.

 

And there aren't nearly as many holes in our knowledge as people like to suggest... we're pretty ignorant about some things, like brains and consciousness and stuff inside our heads, but we're pretty damn good with our physical world properties. Unless we're ignorant of our ignorance, which is completely possible, but you certainly can't claim you know for certain that we are.

 

I wouldn't say characterization was a weakness of RJ's at all, though I understand why some people say that. He uses a caricaturish sort of characterization. It doesn't make the characters shallow, but it does make them seem a bit stereotypical sometimes, or in some cases archetypical. That's only the surface, though. It annoys the hell out of some people, and for those people it can be distracting, but the caricature aspect doesn't diminish the fact that his characters are well-developed.

 

The same goes for the plot. Parts of it are derivative, yes, but again, it's only the surface, and the way that he organized his derivations into a complex plot was a feat I doubt any other contemporary author could have managed. And it still manages to be incredibly original.

 

How reasonable, an understanding as to why some would find it ok and others would not. If only Brandon would get the same treatment from his "critics". But no, just a relentless campaign to make sure everyone knows how terrible he is.

 

For those who say the books "need to wrap up" that is entirely missing the point. There are far too many times in TGS and ToM where Brandon raced from A to B with blunt prose and zero subtlety. Wrapping up is all good, but there is a way to do so beyond lowest common denominator plot work. So while posters like Kael can shrilly protest our posts, hint at secret plots to bring Brandon down within the fandom and hilariously act as if our critique is somehow an indictment on them, per usual he is off base entirely. Instead of focusing on fellow posters, people that disagree would be far better served showing examples of how Brandon has in their estimation been doing a great job with the series. I would be interested to have a debate on the topic if someone would do so.

 

I don't believe he did a great job with the series. I think he did an adequate job with the series, and I don't believe for a second that RJ's writing would have continued as-is through this "last book" (all 3 of... it?) and I would be thankful for that! RJ was getting... long winded? distracted? Maybe your literary expertise can pin down what I'm trying to say, but boring sums it up pretty well. You can easily go overboard with subtlety and whatever the literary opposite of "blunt prose" is... maybe... "meandering prose"? I have a similar opinion /wrt Robin Hobb. Pretty writer, slow, dullish stories. Well RJ was getting into that realm.

 

But, there's no blame on Jordan for writing such a wide encompassing world and then claiming to finish it all in 1 book? I'm not saying he shouldn't have written it that way. I love the breadth of it all, but then maybe we need a proper ghost writer to flush out Brandon's story outlines made from the notes and do it in another 6 books instead of 3? That'd be cool. But Brandon didn't make any of these decisions. Nor would he probably agree to that, I mean he does have his own career too.

 

Also, your critiques are something team Jordan are supposed to look out for right? So maybe rail on them a little more and it'll feel less like a personal vendetta. Or is your persistence really a beta reader job application, so you can't trash them? Well then I'll suggest you tone it down cause your attempts to be noticed make you look like one of those crank critiques who think finding the negative in everything makes them special.

 

And Luckers' didn't seem to say Brandon was lazy. He said Brandon didn't try things he didn't feel he could do well. And if you're on a tight deadline, then trying new things is certainly not going to happen. So maybe you should go back to your original opinion that it was about tight deadlines. That would also help excuse Team Jordan. But if you're going to give up deadline excuse for Brandon, then give it up for them too.

 

And I don't really think it's a conspiracy, I just think you like sounding smart and think that adopting Luckers' criticisms and then posting them as often as possible gets you more internet points.

[Suttree]

Also, your critiques are something team Jordan are supposed to look out for right? So maybe rail on them a little more and it'll feel less like a personal vendetta. Or is your persistence really a beta reader job application, so you can't trash them? Well then I'll suggest you tone it down cause your attempts to be noticed make you look like one of those crank critiques who think finding the negative in everything makes them special.

 

And Luckers' didn't seem to say Brandon was lazy. He said Brandon didn't try things he didn't feel he could do well. And if you're on a tight deadline, then trying new things is certainly not going to happen. So maybe you should go back to your original opinion that it was about tight deadlines. That would also help excuse Team Jordan. But if you're going to give up deadline excuse for Brandon, then give it up for them too.

 

And I don't really think it's a conspiracy, I just think you like sounding smart and think that adopting Luckers' criticisms and then posting them as often as possible gets you more internet points.

 

My critique is nothing more than my personnel opinion. Once again you weren't around for the praise and now are judging people off a stance that has evolved over a number of years. No idea what your insinuations about vendettas or job applications are about? Please stop personalizing and looking for hidden meanings. It come across as exceedingly strange and bizarre. Quite simply my posts are an opinion on Brandon's writing in the WoT. It's what I studied in school and I have a hard time reading any other way. As I've mentioned many of the issues are glaringly obvious and I have merely called out the good and bad as I go. Much like many have done, myself included, for RJ's works over the years.

 

To your other point not sure when I or anyone ever called Brandon lazy? What are you even talking about as that is pretty far away from what was said? In addition posters specifically requested a source for what I was discussing so I posted what was asked for. Shrug. Luckers and I have discussed the topic privately at times and respect each others opinions. I find we agree in certain areas but we have had our fair share of debates as well. As I stated earlier he is not the only person who has raised this issue among those I trust.

 

Lastly any number of people can attest to my history here and my postings speak for themselves. This isn't this first time you have made random claims and It's somewhat baffling why you would follow me through various threads on this topic and continue to voice displeasure over my opinions(as you well know you have chosen to focus on me instead of the writing when this has come up in the past). Please turn your efforts to refuting my criticism with examples from the text if you wish to discuss this. All of your casting aspirations and taking personnel offense to my critique weirds me out to be honest. Apparently Pseudonym hit the nail on the head earlier in this thread.

 

Because they're emotionally invested in their point of view and take such criticism personally. This is not at all limited to a fanbase. It permeates everything.

[Luckers]

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

I think the bolded item is an important distinction though. There's a difference between not trying (laziness) and knowing your limitations. Perhaps BS believes that leaving those types of issues to Team Jordan results in a better end product. Let's say that I'm painting my house and come across a wall with a hole in it. Let's say I'm a pretty good painter but I'm not that great at construction type work. Would it be laziness if I called in a handyman to patch up the hole before I painted over it? Or is that just me acknowledging something I can't do that well and letting someone else handle it so the end product looks as good as it can? And despite the fact that I greatly respect Luckers and his posts, I think he's a bit unfairly or overly critical regarding BS's work.

That is a fair distinction, and I'm not actually suggesting Brandon is lazy--and if I appeared to do so, then I humbly apologise, and indeed to be utterly clear I believe the exact opposite. Brandon's work ethic is insane, as are his work hours. 'Compulsive writer' is indeed perhaps a kind term when it comes to what he manages, and that is something I deeply respect.

 

That being said, though instances of laziness equates 'not trying', 'not trying' does not always connote laziness in reverse, if that distinction makes sense. I'm going to try to explain, but first, yes, the difference between 'not trying' and knowing your limitations is a very important one, and the key to making that distinction, to my mind, is being willing to try--hold that thought in mind for a second, and I'll try to explain.

 

Brandon quite evidentally enjoys writing--in particular he seems to enjoy the act of creation and innovation. Reading his interviews and comments you can see an almost child-like joy as he explores both the plots he is creating, and the literary ideas he is exploring at the same time, which is great and beautiful, and a passion that informs his work very clearly, and to great benefit.

 

What all this basically means is that Brandon loves points of innovation--the First Draft, exploring the actual story, is the clearest, but it shows up in other things like stylistic innovations, such as the back and forth POV thing between Galad and Perrin in TofM, or Brandon's efforts towards realistic dialogue in terms of hesitations (I saw Peter Ahlstrom and a fan talking about this recently). Another clear place it shows up is in the innovative world and magic systems he constructs, and whilst this is a bit less evident in the Wheel than in his own work due to the existing layout, it does show up in terms of his use of characters innovation with the One Power, or tel'aran'rhiod, or other elements of the metaphysics of the world. Which is all well and good--though, at times, done with varying levels of success, and has in my opinion, again only at times, both broken the fourth wall and broken Sanderson's First Law--but that is a different discussion.

 

Where it becomes relevant here is that when it comes to elements that are not purely creative, we begin to see a lag in that drive. Specifically, the elements of writing that relate more to the practical, nitty gritty side of writing--the editing, the polishing, the revisions and re-writes--in effect, the strictly structural work--along with the planning and development sides, such as the efforts toward elements like timeline, the subtlety of plotwork (which is often more about careful re-writes than about creativity)--all tend to get swept up in the mad fires of creative expression that so drives Brandon's entire nature as a writer.

 

Now I've stated before (and seemed to have been quoted in this thread about a million times) that Brandon is quite open about this--and to a degree he is. Nor do you need my supposed 'special access' to find this--Terez's database contains numerous quotes about things like the subtlety of the plotwork, and issues like the timeline work and the way his first-draft writing v. polishing. The basic comment amounts to, as has been said, that he does not regard it to be his strength, and relies on [insert person]. In relation to the subtlety of the plot the exact metaphor he used when I met him was that he was catching balls Jordan left in the air, sometimes he caught the smoothly, something he fumbled and then slammed them down, sometimes he dropped them.

 

So no, I'm not saying he's lazy. What I am saying is that he appears to have reached a decision about what his limitations are, and based on that, decided what the scopes of his responsibilities are. Where we differ is that, to my mind, that decision is not serving him, or the Wheel, well. By acknowledging to himself that he cannot do something, and thus shrugging whenever the lack of quality in that element comes under negative consideration and saying 'yes, I know, but that's that', I believe he is, in effect, stiffling himself as a writer, and I do feel that he should be stepping beyond his comfort zone, and that if he did so, he could grow. And the worst thing is, its with his work on the Wheel that that growth seemed to stop. Before, that evolution was clear--now, if anything there seems to be a devolution as the speed of production rewards this high-speed first draft approach.

 

With most writers I'd just shrug and wander away from them and their work, a vague sense of sadness in my heart for potential lost. With him its more personal, both because I know and like him as a man, and because of the Wheel, which of course matters a very great deal to me.

 

In any case the above is all in reference to elements he has acknowledged, hence my 'to a degree'. We do differ on the point of editing, and I have at all times been given the impression that he does feel that the degree to which he edits a work is more than satisfactory and if anything feels disatisfied at the delay for all that he recognizes Harriets (not his own) need for more time(which does make sense when you pause to think about who first promised November, and whose word was went against in the decision for the delay). That being said, for all that I get his irritation I do disagree with him. It's one of the few elements to which we have genuinely argued over (really, the second of the two arguments I've ever had with him--or rather, me having a temper tantrum, and him placating me [he says, somewhat self-mockingly]).

 

But that is a somewhat different topic of conversation. In any case, those are my thoughts, upon which everyone is welcome to disagree, just thought I should lay them down.

 

Well stated Mr. Grayson, exactly what i was thinking.

There is certainly a difference between not trying and saying "I am not going to be able to write that like Robert Jordan".

To make the statement that he is not trying you imply that he is not doing the best he can, that is different than him knowing what he cannot do and relying on others, like a top notch editing team, to help make the work closer match the previous work.

Everyone would have loved the conclusion of these books to be seemless from the rest of the story, well maybe not everyone since there are people on here who state they like the new style better, but that was not going to happen when Mr. Jordan passed away.

Brandon Sanderson is a professional writer who put his work on hold to finish a story that he loves as best as he could.

To state that he isnt trying states that he doesnt care, and if he doesnt care why would he put his own work on hold to finish this one. I doubt that if Brandon would have said no the story would have died, they would have found another way for it to get done.

Critique his style all you want, that is the right of any reader, but it is out of bounds to critique is commitment. Finishing this story has taken up the lionshare of the last 4 years of his life.

 

Actually I don't believe it would be out of bound to critique commitment--I just don't think Brandon's commitment is critiquable. In fact, if anything, it has been remarkable. Utterly beyond reproach.

 

But that is also not what we were speaking of.

[safwd]

A question for you Luckers, mainly because as far as i know you have had the most true access to the behind the scenes WOT than anyone else on the site.

 

Do you think if RJ would not have become ill and was able to finish the series it would have been completed in 3 books?

 

I ask because i really didnt think it could have. At the end of KoD RJ said he was going to finish in 1 more no matter what (i dont believe he truely thought that) and when Brandon said it would be 3 more i still couldnt see how it would be done, there were so many things left unfinished.

 

The last two books have felt rushed, both in production and when you read them (to me). I put much of this to the fact that I believe Brandon was told that the series would end in 3 books, period. So he had many loose ends to tie up and a number of them were going to be tied up in unfullfiling ways just to save space.

I think if RJ were still here and he said, "3 more books", then said, "Ok maybe 4 or 5 more", he would have gotten away with that. You cant argue with the creator. Brandon doesnt seem to have been given that luxury nor do i think he would even want it. I am sure he has plenty of his own stories he would like to tell.

 

Do you feel that lends to Brandon being unwilling to put forth a ton of time and effort into those areas that are not his natural strong points?

His version of WOT does tend to go for the big moments but perhaps part of that is due to him just not having the time (word count wise) to go deeply into the rest of the story.

[capuga]

....A well written post by Luckers. Not going to quote the whole thing.....

 

But that is a somewhat different topic of conversation. In any case, those are my thoughts, upon which everyone is welcome to disagree, just thought I should lay them down.

 

Well stated Mr. Grayson, exactly what i was thinking.

There is certainly a difference between not trying and saying "I am not going to be able to write that like Robert Jordan".

To make the statement that he is not trying you imply that he is not doing the best he can, that is different than him knowing what he cannot do and relying on others, like a top notch editing team, to help make the work closer match the previous work.

Everyone would have loved the conclusion of these books to be seemless from the rest of the story, well maybe not everyone since there are people on here who state they like the new style better, but that was not going to happen when Mr. Jordan passed away.

Brandon Sanderson is a professional writer who put his work on hold to finish a story that he loves as best as he could.

To state that he isnt trying states that he doesnt care, and if he doesnt care why would he put his own work on hold to finish this one. I doubt that if Brandon would have said no the story would have died, they would have found another way for it to get done.

Critique his style all you want, that is the right of any reader, but it is out of bounds to critique is commitment. Finishing this story has taken up the lionshare of the last 4 years of his life.

 

Actually I don't believe it would be out of bound to critique commitment--I just don't think Brandon's commitment is critiquable. In fact, if anything, it has been remarkable. Utterly beyond reproach.

 

But that is also not what we were speaking of.

 

And this all reads as a much more fair criticism to me. An acknowledgement of BS's strengths and weaknesses. Pointing out that more effort towards his limitations would help him as a writer. In my example it would be the same as saying that perhaps I should try to patch the hole in the wall myself in order to become better at the overall job. (I'd still argue that that may not improve the end project as I'm still unlikely to become as good as the specialist I could bring in to do the part of the job I'm not comfortable with.)

 

I guess I really just bristled when I saw some comments that I felt were calling into question Brandon's work ethic rather than his abilities or output as a writer. Cause it has seemed to me that he works really, really hard. Perhaps I misunderstood the critiques.

[Terez]

It's not precisely his work ethic that's under question, but whether or not he really cares about the little details that make WoT good, or little details that are apt to be confusing or jarring for the longtime reader of WoT. There is some evidence in the interviews that he has blown off things like this in the editing process. It's one thing to try to defend something that has already been published—Sulin being an example that didn't work out so well even in that scenario—but another thing altogether to blow them off in the editing process. (This is not information passed along from the 'in the know' crowd; just stuff that Brandon has said publicly.) We know he has a very difficult job, but Maria and Alan and the beta readers are there to make it easier for him. I get the impression (and I could be wrong) that, like most writers, he's just reluctant to change things he has already written, and since he has to do so much of that for WoT I imagine he feels the need to draw lines at certain points. As in, "Okay, I have to change this, but this is nitpicky so I won't change that." I think that's why they're taking more time with AMOL, so they don't have to make sacrifices in that area, but even the latest excerpt (which I will not spoil) had a few distractions in it.

[Mario Cole]

Yeah, seems like a fairer conversation. But I think its really just being sad that RJ isn't around to finish. Could be worse. Kevin J Andersen could be completing it.

[Luckers]

A question for you Luckers, mainly because as far as i know you have had the most true access to the behind the scenes WOT than anyone else on the site.

 

Do you think if RJ would not have become ill and was able to finish the series it would have been completed in 3 books?

 

I ask because i really didnt think it could have. At the end of KoD RJ said he was going to finish in 1 more no matter what (i dont believe he truely thought that) and when Brandon said it would be 3 more i still couldnt see how it would be done, there were so many things left unfinished.

 

Could he have done it in three books? Perhaps. This is the man who thought the entire series would be a trilogy at most. There is a very amusing story out there about Tom Doherty [the publisher] walking out of the pitch meeting with RJ, and patting himself on the back for having talked Jim up to signing on for six books instead of three. Surely that would be enough.

 

Personally, I could see ways to do it in three. And to do it satisfactorily, finishing what needed to be finished.

 

One final note. Jim loved the Wheel, and loathed the concept of anyone but him finishing it. He maintained right up until the very end that all of his notes should be burned should he die before finishing. If you go back before that time, his quotes about how many more books might be needed match what is--as of CoT he said 2 to 5.

 

The last two books have felt rushed, both in production and when you read them (to me).

 

I put this--if indeed it is still within the realm of the question directed at me--within a combination of what I spoke of above, and the demand for speedy delivery. Brandon's love of the creative process leads itself to a very quick turn around on the first draft, and the demand for quick turnaround leads to spurious editing. To be frank, I believe both Team Jordan and Brandon needed to say 'no, we need more time'.

 

Team Jordan, in response to tGS and TofM, have done so. By all Brandon and Peter have inferred--or in truth stated--to me, in our direct confrontation over this issue, he does not believe he needs to put in any extra work.

 

I put much of this to the fact that I believe Brandon was told that the series would end in 3 books, period.

 

I actually ran off and checked whether I could answer this. The answers is--before his death, Jordan signed on with Tor for six new books. Those contracts still exist, and the advances have been paid, and whilst one will go to the Encyclopedia, the rest still contractually exist. So no, Brandon was not contractually restricted to 3 books.

 

Do you feel that lends to Brandon being unwilling to put forth a ton of time and effort into those areas that are not his natural strong points?

 

To be frank, no. I believe the fact that Brandon can write a book and have it published and bought by millions without him putting forth time and effort in those areas which are not his natural strong points is what lends itself to Brandon being unwilling--or rather uninterested--in putting in said time and effort.

 

I also believe the comercial success of those books come on the back of the success of the Wheel, and that Brandon is letting himself be glamoured by the success. As a result I do not believe--at his current level of skill or effort, however great it may be--that his work on the Wheel or otherwise will stand the test of time.

 

 

His version of WOT does tend to go for the big moments but perhaps part of that is due to him just not having the time (word count wise) to go deeply into the rest of the story.

 

And yet, he accepted responsibility for the story when he accepted the job. It would be different if he was asking for more time and being denied. He's not. You asked for insider information--here it is. Brandon and I have argued precisely twice. Once, where I believe he unwittingly misused a fan during a publicity stunt, and once about the need for him to take more time based on the rushed and subsequently substandard state of TofM and tGS.

 

What I got from that was at best a concession that he can see why Harriet might need more time. As I've stated, this is a key disagreement between myself and Brandon. I believe he needs to take more time, that his work is unpolished--unfinished. His. Not the editors. His.

 

Is this the insight you desired?

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah, seems like a fairer conversation. But I think its really just being sad that RJ isn't around to finish. Could be worse. Kevin J Andersen could be completing it.

 

Im just glad they didnt pick Terry

[randomh3r0]

I'm just going to go ahead and echo the positive sentiment: we're all lucky enough to be members of a real community made out of appreciation for a story created by RJ, so enthralling that website like this even exist. We're also lucky enough that this series means so much to people and publishers that someone else took it up and finished it when the unthinkable happened. When I ready the BS books, especially TGS, yes I can definitely identify a difference in voice, especially (IMO) when it comes to Mat, who we were just getting to know better. However, I think BS's work is doing exactly what we all honestly (if selfishly) wished for when we heard the news about RJ: providing closure to this immense world we've come to love and identify with.

To that end, I may be guilty of giving him a free pass or two when it comes to "polishing", but I'd rather BS consolidate the remaing story and focus on the big points and finish it than EVER try to actually take over as RJ and do 6 more books or whatever. We have real characters we already know who are developed, at this point, and what we all really need(ed) is just to know what happens.

Just my opinion.

[78WARLOCK]

I am so glad I just read for the enjoyment factor. To sit and have the time to pick apart which scene was written by who and why this or that character now seems changed...If I was that, I would not enjoy reading !!!

 

Did the books hold my attention ? YES

Were they entertaining ? YES

Did they draw me into the story ? YES

Am I glad this is being finnished and with the first 3 questions being fulfilled: ABSOLUTLY !!

 

Most people just seem to want to bash BS. Well guess what, he's NOT RJ !! Get over it and read for the enjoyment. Be happy this will have an ending. I am reasonably certain this will have an ending to one or more charcaters that I don't like. Well, would'nt be the first book I read where I thought something should have been done different. It's also not the first series I've read by multiple authors. 200+ books on my shelfs, I've rad them all !!

[Suttree]

It's also not the first series I've read by multiple authors. 200+ books on my shelfs, I've rad them all !![/color][/i]

 

200! That's a lot of rad books.

[safwd]

I didnt wish to "requote" your whole post Luckers so i will just say Thanks for th response, it was exactly what i was looking for.

 

I did not know that there is a contract for up to 5 more books out there, that is interesting knowledge. I'm sure they were planned for the follow on novels (like the Mat and Tuon story) but that doesnt mean they have to be.

 

I guess for me at least it i dont want to think as you and Suttree are because it makes me sad for the story.

I am very possibly giving Brandon a pass here because i am just so happy that the story is getting finished and it is being finished in a way that i do not dislike. Do i believe it could be better, sure i do, but i am "content" with the way it is now.

 

If Brandon truely is not all that interested in getting certain things right that bothers me. I understand it may not be a strong point but if he really has the time to finish this story as best as possible and he still not all that interested, shrug.

I like Brandon's own work and i believe he would have become a popular author on his own, but i also without a doubt believe that WoT has propelled his popularity to another level. I really hope he is not letting it be "good enough".

 

Thank you again for the response.

[Mats Spare Hat]

* eyes pan side to side

 

*slowley fists handfuls of popcorn into mouth

 

Jesus, Luckers...drop a bomb why dontcha

[Luckers]

I did not know that there is a contract for up to 5 more books out there, that is interesting knowledge. I'm sure they were planned for the follow on novels (like the Mat and Tuon story) but that doesnt mean they have to be.

 

 

Ummm... from what I recall three were for the Infinity of Heaven series, two were for each of the perspective prequels (the Tam one and the 'how Moiraine got to the Two Rivers just in time' one), and the final one was the original unsplit aMoL. The Outriggers were just an idea, and not one that Jordan had sold to Tor yet. But yes, just the way two were reslated for the split, they could have taken it further if they needed.

 

That being said, I'm not sure they needed to. I think the end CAN be told in three books, but that a lot more needed to be put in tGS and TofM for that to be the case (i.e. that some of the fat needed to be trimmed, which could have done without cutting content purely through polishing and refinning the work, and then more worked in).

 

As it is, aMoL will tell.

 

I guess for me at least it i dont want to think as you and Suttree are because it makes me sad for the story.

 

I didn't either. *sigh*

 

Jesus, Luckers...drop a bomb why dontcha

 

You've no idea what hides behind my eyes, waiting to hurt you all. :P

[Vardar]

Wait, what's this about a misused fan and a stunt? Please go on...

[Luckers]

BTW safwd, I appologise if any of my other post was sharp. It wasn't you, it was the whole 'speaking of negatives about someone I like'.

 

Wait, what's this about a misused fan and a stunt? Please go on...

 

Nevermind. Brandon didn't mean anything ill by it, the person in question didn't even notice, and Brandon followed up to make sure no harm was done.

[Vardar]

BTW safwd, I appologise if any of my other post was sharp. It wasn't you, it was the whole 'speaking of negatives about someone I like'.

 

Wait, what's this about a misused fan and a stunt? Please go on...

 

Nevermind. Brandon didn't mean anything ill by it, the person in question didn't even notice, and Brandon followed up to make sure no harm was done.

 

Aww, you can't nevermind something like that! dang.