The Grave is no bar to my call

[TristanWebb]

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Also, is it assumed that all ter-angreal in existence at the time of the series were created in the AoL? If so, it would imply that the HoV was only created in the AoL. If you assume that the horn was created during the AoL, it would make sense that it was created during the War of Power since the entire concept of war and fighting for good and evil were unknown concepts until the Bore was drilled. Perhaps the creators placed these potentially conflicting requirements on the Horn - heroes had to obey the sounder, and they had to fight for the Light (the Dragon).

The Horn isn't a ter'angreal, it is something special.

 

As for Gaidel, the wheel has to assume that it will keep turning after TG, so spinning out heroes to work the pattern there is just as important as keeping them in reserve to fight in TG.

[FarShainMael]

So only we and Rand remember that Mat died because it was all undone, so because he was never killed, the link was never broken.

 

The really intriguing thing about that is that somebody else also knows about it - the Aelfinn:

 

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Everything else in that has happened, and is significant. I think that Mat's 'unkilling' must have more significance to the plot than merely to demonstrate to us the uses of balefire.

 

If not unlinking Mat from the Horn, then what? (Not a rhetorical question.)

[shortkut]

Does it matter if mat was unlinked? If he is the next one to blow the horn he is linked again and no one will be the wiser

[FarShainMael]

Someone else might get to it first..

 

AFAWK the HoV is curently being kept at the WT.. which is under threat of attack from the Seanchan. What happens if one of them finds it and uses it?

[shortkut]

Who would tuon trust to have use it? Most likely Mat. Egwene knows that Mat is the horn blower. Unless fain or a forsaken gets to it, it is most likely going to be mat who blows it next

[Durinax]

Who would tuon trust to have use it? Most likely Mat. Egwene knows that Mat is the horn blower. Unless fain or a forsaken gets to it, it is most likely going to be mat who blows it next

actually I hope to see some soldier blow it thinking of glory, I want to see what happens to him

 

"Let he who sounds me think not of glory but of salvation"

[1Brotherbill]

You could always bail out and say the it was early in the series and Jordan didn't have the HOV ironed out yet. Since most things that happen in Eye of the World are tossed aside with that mentality.

[Vardar]

Someone else might get to it first..

 

AFAWK the HoV is curently being kept at the WT.. which is under threat of attack from the Seanchan. What happens if one of them finds it and uses it?

 

They would have to raze the tower to the ground to get to it though. Do you think they'd be able to find it? The tower is HUGE!

 

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Isn't the whole time thing relative? I mean, we don't know how old he could be at this point right? We know he was gone from TAR at one point, but how far back in time did it toss him?

[XoMeltdownoX]

Someone else might get to it first..

 

AFAWK the HoV is curently being kept at the WT.. which is under threat of attack from the Seanchan. What happens if one of them finds it and uses it?

 

They would have to raise the tower to the ground to get to it though. Do you think they'd be able to find it? The tower is HUGE!

 

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Isn't the whole time thing relative? I mean, we don't know how old he could be at this point right? We know he was gone from TAR at one point, but how far back in time did it toss him?

Time flows differently in TAR compared to the real world, but it does not flow backwards. He is only an infant or toddler now, that is not open for debate or interpretation.

[Orderofolde]

Someone else might get to it first..

 

AFAWK the HoV is curently being kept at the WT.. which is under threat of attack from the Seanchan. What happens if one of them finds it and uses it?

 

They would have to raise the tower to the ground to get to it though. Do you think they'd be able to find it? The tower is HUGE!

 

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Isn't the whole time thing relative? I mean, we don't know how old he could be at this point right? We know he was gone from TAR at one point, but how far back in time did it toss him?

Time flows differently in TAR compared to the real world, but it does not flow backwards. He is only an infant or toddler now, that is not open for debate or interpretation.

This is true, but if we get a Gaidal from a mirror world that runs faster come over fighting on the fringes of some Trollocs brought in by portal stone he could be both older and younger. Hrm, doesn't that sound familiar somehow...

[Lisa Campbell]

About Birgitte and Gaidal, I too think Birgitte will die sometime soon but I was left wondering about how and when they are reborn after reading this post:

 

Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

 

Siswai_Dar, on 01 July 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

this discussion made me think... what will happen to Birgitte and Gaidal when Mat blow the horn? will it affect them? after all Gaidal should be only a baby right now,...

 

I suspect Birgitte will die in the fighting in Caemlyn - which will put her back in T'A'R ready to be spun out normally. Recall Min's Viewings of her future:

 

 

WH12, Min PoV said:

Auras danced around her {Birgitte} and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

When you come out of a Waygate - time slows and then is normal again once you get all the way out. What if being spun out of TAR is not an instantaneous process. I imagine the Hero has to somehow rid themselves of their memory temporarily before they can inhabit a new life.

 

As for Min's viewings about Birgitte and Gaidal, I agree with Terez (I think it was her anyway) that Birgitte's auras are a bit screwy because of her unusual circumstances, and at this stage she is older than Gaidal.

 

Going back to my first point about the length of transition, what if Birgitte and Gaidal are currently roasting in Elayne's tum tum? Before you jump, Birgitte has already lost most of her memories so her transition would be far shorter (on the presumption there is a transition period that is). Gaidal could be the first born, satisfying what many seem to think is an absolute requirement even though Birgitte did say "usually". It also satisfies Min's viewing of Birgitte currently being older. I'm assuming you will all accept that a foetus is alive before birth? When does the soul inhabit the body? At birth, fertilisation, when the egg leaves the ovary?

 

What do you think?

 

Edit: How do you think Elayne would react if she gave birth to butt ugly Gaidal?

[Vardar]

About Birgitte and Gaidal, I too think Birgitte will die sometime soon but I was left wondering about how and when they are reborn after reading this post:

 

Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

 

Siswai_Dar, on 01 July 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

this discussion made me think... what will happen to Birgitte and Gaidal when Mat blow the horn? will it affect them? after all Gaidal should be only a baby right now,...

 

I suspect Birgitte will die in the fighting in Caemlyn - which will put her back in T'A'R ready to be spun out normally. Recall Min's Viewings of her future:

 

 

WH12, Min PoV said:

Auras danced around her {Birgitte} and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

When you come out of a Waygate - time slows and then is normal again once you get all the way out. What if being spun out of TAR is not an instantaneous process. I imagine the Hero has to somehow rid themselves of their memory temporarily before they can inhabit a new life.

 

As for Min's viewings about Birgitte and Gaidal, I agree with Terez (I think it was her anyway) that Birgitte's auras are a bit screwy because of her unusual circumstances, and at this stage she is older than Gaidal.

 

Going back to my first point about the length of transition, what if Birgitte and Gaidal are currently roasting in Elayne's tum tum? Before you jump, Birgitte has already lost most of her memories so her transition would be far shorter (on the presumption there is a transition period that is). Gaidal could be the first born, satisfying what many seem to think is an absolute requirement even though Birgitte did say "usually". It also satisfies Min's viewing of Birgitte currently being older. I'm assuming you will all accept that a foetus is alive before birth? When does the soul inhabit the body? At birth, fertilisation, when the egg leaves the ovary?

 

What do you think?

 

Edit: How do you think Elayne would react if she gave birth to butt ugly Gaidal?

 

 

I never understood why people thought she was seeing her future, I always assumed she saw her past lives, all of them just because she's special, and with the turning of the wheel some of those lives haven't happened yet or may happen again.

 

Aren't they always lovers tho? Being brother and sister is kinda creepy.

[Suttree]

About Birgitte and Gaidal, I too think Birgitte will die sometime soon but I was left wondering about how and when they are reborn after reading this post:

 

Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

 

Siswai_Dar, on 01 July 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

this discussion made me think... what will happen to Birgitte and Gaidal when Mat blow the horn? will it affect them? after all Gaidal should be only a baby right now,...

 

I suspect Birgitte will die in the fighting in Caemlyn - which will put her back in T'A'R ready to be spun out normally. Recall Min's Viewings of her future:

 

 

WH12, Min PoV said:

Auras danced around her {Birgitte} and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

When you come out of a Waygate - time slows and then is normal again once you get all the way out. What if being spun out of TAR is not an instantaneous process. I imagine the Hero has to somehow rid themselves of their memory temporarily before they can inhabit a new life.

 

As for Min's viewings about Birgitte and Gaidal, I agree with Terez (I think it was her anyway) that Birgitte's auras are a bit screwy because of her unusual circumstances, and at this stage she is older than Gaidal.

 

Going back to my first point about the length of transition, what if Birgitte and Gaidal are currently roasting in Elayne's tum tum? Before you jump, Birgitte has already lost most of her memories so her transition would be far shorter (on the presumption there is a transition period that is). Gaidal could be the first born, satisfying what many seem to think is an absolute requirement even though Birgitte did say "usually". It also satisfies Min's viewing of Birgitte currently being older. I'm assuming you will all accept that a foetus is alive before birth? When does the soul inhabit the body? At birth, fertilisation, when the egg leaves the ovary?

 

What do you think?

 

Edit: How do you think Elayne would react if she gave birth to butt ugly Gaidal?

 

 

I never understood why people thought she was seeing her future, I always assumed she saw her past lives, all of them just because she's special, and with the turning of the wheel some of those lives haven't happened yet or may happen again.

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1998

 

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

Slayer

 

Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

Robert Jordan

 

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

[Lisa Campbell]

Or possible futures. If Birgitte dies, there is the possibility that some would have been invalid. If Birgitte lives, she'll be older than Gaidal. If not... you get the picture.

[Vardar]

So Lan's going to live to see the 7 towers brought back? Dang, interesting, very interesting.

[Lisa Campbell]

Nynaeve's Accepted Test confirms that as well - she suspects it is real when she meets/hears of Sharina Melloy. Go Lan!

[Vardar]

Nynaeve's Accepted Test confirms that as well - she suspects it is real when she meets/hears of Sharina Melloy. Go Lan!

 

I didn't think that was a real future. Look at what happened in Eggys.

[Lisa Campbell]

Nynaeve actually met a real person she could never have known existed though, with the same name. I don't think that's random coincidence.

 

Do you mean when Egwene was Amyrlin and couldn't kill Rand? I think it was more about Rand being 13*13'd or going dark, and not being able to do what needed to be done.

 

For both of them, the fear could even be for having to abandon Rand/Lan.

 

That doesn't completely make sense but I haven't read the first few books for ages cause my cat destroyed them and I fall asleep to the audio books so it's not fresh in my mind. My brain is tired - very early morning syndrome.

[Vardar]

Nynaeve actually met a real person she could never have known existed though, with the same name. I don't think that's random coincidence.

 

Do you mean when Egwene was Amyrlin and couldn't kill Rand? I think it was more about Rand being 13*13'd or going dark, and not being able to do what needed to be done.

 

For both of them, the fear could even be for having to abandon Rand/Lan.

 

That doesn't completely make sense but I haven't read the first few books for ages cause my cat destroyed them and I fall asleep to the audio books so it's not fresh in my mind. My brain is tired - very early morning syndrome.

 

Yea Eggy future scene had the 13X13 and such. So if Ny's comes true, that means hers will too. I buy the Sharina thing, but it doesn't mean that is bound to happen, I thought it was like a Portal stone, and shows other possible futures.

[Lisa Campbell]

Possible futures makes sense because the main thread could be the same (ie. Sharina) but the outcomes different. I was mainly using it to back up that Lan won't die because of Min's vision. I have this nagging question though, were the towers shown completely whole or did they oscillate between whole and broken. I can't remember but I can't dismiss the thought.

 

Damn, I have to buy those cat shredded books again before AMoL.

[Vardar]

Possible futures makes sense because the main thread could be the same (ie. Sharina) but the outcomes different. I was mainly using it to back up that Lan won't die because of Min's vision. I have this nagging question though, were the towers shown completely whole or did they oscillate between whole and broken. I can't remember but I can't dismiss the thought.

 

Damn, I have to buy those cat shredded books again before AMoL.

 

They were complete. Wait you mean in the vision? If you remember the book, I can tell you right quick. GoGo Search function!!!

[Lisa Campbell]

Think it would have been TEotW, in Baerlon but it could have been early TDR.

[Apple Scruff]

Wow, y'all are blowing my mind with all this!

 

Here's my thoughts on some of this.

 

I had thought about Elayne's baby boy being GC, but I can't reconcile the time line. Especially not Brigette being the girl. Could be an interesting explanation of why their warder bond is different.

 

My feeling has always been that the HoV is not an object of the power. I think it is ancient and it is another magic, "old magic" if you will.

 

This may deserve its own thread:

Is Rand the only hero alive right now? (Discounting Brigette of course, & baby GC somewhere)

Has anyone in this age done anything to merit becoming a Hero?

Is there any link between being Taveren and being a Hero?

[Lisa Campbell]

I think Perrin and Mat will become Heroes, because they were unexpected (although Ishamael seemed to know pretty much from the start) so maybe they were already Heroes.

 

The wondergirls very well could be. The precepts forbid the Heroes from speaking or showing themselves to any who are conscious of being in TAR. It makes me question Birgitte's motives when she warns Nynaeve to stay away from Asmodean, and then promises her assistance. Maybe she recognised them but had already stretched the rules far enough and kept that to herself. That could be another reason for her and Elayne's bond being different, although I think that has been explained by it being a double girlie bond.

 

Galad?

 

Ituralde?

 

Bashere?

 

Moiraine?

 

Lan?

 

Tuon?

 

How many heroes came to Falme? 100? I'd imagine there is need for a number of Heroes in the world, not just two. What the Pattern requires, it spins into reality.

[Vardar]

There was a really good post discussing the fact that Mat and Perrin were already heroes. It made damn good sense too.