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The Grave is no bar to my call


Orderofolde
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For all of the postings and topics here over the years I cannot recall seeing anyone or anything that covers this...

 

In The Great Hunt, we see Mat blow the Horn of Valere summoning forth the Heroes of the Horn. When they arrive, Artur Hawkwing states that something holds them, and asks after the banner of The Dragon. He states something to the effect that anyone can summon the Heroes of the Horn but they follow the banner. This is the only time that we see this, and it's right from the horse's mouth so to speak. However, the great fear through the series is Darkfriends getting their hands on it, retaking it, then later the fear over Mat being killed or if the hanging or getting hit by lightning in Caemlyn broke the connection where anyone could then use the horn.

 

We have a summoned Hero of the Horn telling Rand and Co. that they come to anyone's call, but can only be used (or can only follow) the Dragon's banner (and Rand whom they recognize.) Is it just that so little is known about the Horn that we are seeing just the fear of the unknown coming out in all the statements of not letting it fall into the hands of darkfriends or the shadow? To me, the worst that could happen in this case is that if it were captured and if for some reason (we know he won't) Mat dies or the connection is broken, the shadow could just not let it and the Heroes come into play. Otherwise if they blew it you'd have about a hundred Heroes of the Horn appearing in the center of the Shadow's Forces with Rand waving his banner and asking them to get to work. The shadow would look pretty foolish. To me, the Shadow seems to know a lot more than the forces of light in regards to everything from history to Ter'angreal and Angreal. If we have Artur Hawkwing telling Rand that any fool can blow the horn and call them, but they can only follow Rand's or LTT's banner, I'm wondering if anyone else noticed this or can elaborate? Am I missing something?

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Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

 

Pam Basham

Regarding That Whole Thing About the Horn—Hawkwing vs. Moiraine

 

Question: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

 

Robert Jordan

*Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it.

 

Pam Basham

(I took this to imply that Moiraine was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)

 

Robert Jordan

However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." [exact quote]

 

Pam Basham

(I started to get confused at this point. Is Moiraine right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?)

 

Question: Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

 

Robert Jordan

"Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." [1]

 

Pam Basham

(This elicited a pronounced Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me—"A WHAT?!?"—but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean something entirely different.)

 

At this point, part of my mind was running wild down paths about the Dark One and potential entrances into the Pattern, while the rest of it remained stunned, frozen, in absolute denial: "A WHAT?!?"I remain steadfastly in denial about this one. Oh, sure. He did say it, and if it becomes relevant, he'll work it in, no doubt. But I firmly believe he Made This Up. If the Dark One was aware of this, it seems to me that he'd be working a lot harder on making this happen, since it would seem to represent the equivalent of a serious "crack in the door to the Pattern." It's so much less work than using up all your main players (Chosen) in inefficient, conflicting plots and setting up Rand for "easily escapable situations involving an overly elaborate and exotic Death." [2]

 

[1] I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture. Sorry. It was lost in the momentary brain freeze.

[2] Moridin, of course. He's overly elaborate and exotic even before he puts on his silk coats.

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Hawkwing seemed confused as to why he couldn't ride off, so I always assumed that it was only at that particular calling that the banner was required, as part of announcing the Dragon. I don't know if the RJ quote destroys that theory or not.

 

The degree to which the moment was woven was part of this specific scene (what RJ terms as a pattern level event). Whilst there are always connections between the Heroes and the Dragon, and whilst clearly by RJ's interview if anyone were foolish enough to call the Heroes against the Dragon it would cause a rift in the pattern, the degree and specifics of the bindings between Heroes and Dragon (not just in following him, but in being bound to succeed or fail with Rand's fight with Ishamael) was as much about the moment in question as the bindings between Hero and Dragon.

 

For instance it seems clear to me that the Heroes could be called without Dragon or Banner present, but if they are, that creates extra requirements--and when you add that to the presence of three ta'veren, and the push of the Wheel for the Pattern Level Event that was Rand bannering himself across the sky.... It needs to be remembered, after all, that the Horn and its function are constructs tapping into a natural self-correcting mechanism in the Wheel (the recycling of specific Heroes). There are bound to be some glitches between how the Horn was designed to function, and the natural state of how the Heroes function.

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Hawkwing seemed confused as to why he couldn't ride off, so I always assumed that it was only at that particular calling that the banner was required, as part of announcing the Dragon. I don't know if the RJ quote destroys that theory or not.

 

I think your theory is compatible with that quote. I believe the same thing. That was a moment the Wheel was tightly scripting, kind of one of the things that had to be. That tightly scripted moment needed the banner. While there's nothing definite, I don't think there's anything to imply that's always the case. Apparently the Horn has been used for other things and wasn't even originally connected to the Heroes, that was added later. That said, I don't know how tightly the Wheel is going to try to weave the next moment the Horn is blown.

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What I have always found strange is that we know next to nothing about the legends around the horn. In tGH it says the legends tie it to Illian, but all we really know about it comes from the inscription and what the Seanchan guy said. If Mat had the horn with him all the ttime rather than it being locked up in the tower, could he be blowing it every battle? Every time he needed some drinking buddies? What tied it to Illian?

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As mentioned above we just do not know the history of the HOV, and very little in the way of lore, such as why it is supposed to be tied to Illian. We can take it further back and ask how it could even be tied to Illian as the city simply did not exist when the horn and banner were placed in the Eye of the World. It is possible the ruins of a much older city were there once, which might be the reason it is tied to Illian. We see a few cities built over the ruins of others, most of them lost to the Shadow (Fal Dara, Ebou Dar or Tanchico can't recall which).

 

Thanks Terez for that info, a rift in the pattern and the reaction from Harriett...wow, something tells me we might see the HOV come into play in a way we might not have expected. It's also great seeing all you heavy-hitters here in this discussion!

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I'm probably wrong, but I read it as the two statements could both be true at the same time. My interpretation on first read (and has been since then but now I'm wondering) was that the heroes of the Horn follow whomever blows the horn. The qualification that I got out of Hawkwing's statement was that the Dragon has to have been declared and his banner had to fly.

 

I took it to mean they would not be summoned and fight with a Dragon undeclared, but once a Dragon had been declared if it were to fall into the wrong hands, someone could actually use the HoV to summon the heroes to fight against the Dragon. Two requirements in place, but neither tied together prohibiting one from being false. Same word with two different meanings also.

 

We follow whomever blows the Horn = whomever blows the Horn shall lead us.

We follow the banner = we cannot fight until the banner has been raised (no implicit statement that we fight FOR whomever raises the banner).

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I'm probably wrong, but I read it as the two statements could both be true at the same time. My interpretation on first read (and has been since then but now I'm wondering) was that the heroes of the Horn follow whomever blows the horn. The qualification that I got out of Hawkwing's statement was that the Dragon has to have been declared and his banner had to fly.

 

I took it to mean they would not be summoned and fight with a Dragon undeclared, but once a Dragon had been declared if it were to fall into the wrong hands, someone could actually use the HoV to summon the heroes to fight against the Dragon. Two requirements in place, but neither tied together prohibiting one from being false. Same word with two different meanings also.

 

We follow whomever blows the Horn = whomever blows the Horn shall lead us.

We follow the banner = we cannot fight until the banner has been raised (no implicit statement that we fight FOR whomever raises the banner).

Wow, if they don't or can't come into play until that happens then the horn is fair game, provided Mat remains alive which we know will happen. I'm wondering if Mat's betrayal somehow has something to do with the horn. Maybe Tuon has him use the heroes to support the Seanchan forces rather than Rand's forces...this gives me a lot to think on.

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It's possible the Horn is tied to Illian for the same reason the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand will wear a Crown of Swords. Is it a coincidence that the Dragon wears the crown of Illian and Illian is also the city that legends says the Horn should be brought to? It's doubtful. Whether the legends tying the Horn to Illian are because of something said in the Prophecies or not, it's clear that it can't be a coincidence.

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I'm probably wrong, but I read it as the two statements could both be true at the same time. My interpretation on first read (and has been since then but now I'm wondering) was that the heroes of the Horn follow whomever blows the horn. The qualification that I got out of Hawkwing's statement was that the Dragon has to have been declared and his banner had to fly.

 

I took it to mean they would not be summoned and fight with a Dragon undeclared, but once a Dragon had been declared if it were to fall into the wrong hands, someone could actually use the HoV to summon the heroes to fight against the Dragon. Two requirements in place, but neither tied together prohibiting one from being false. Same word with two different meanings also.

 

We follow whomever blows the Horn = whomever blows the Horn shall lead us.

We follow the banner = we cannot fight until the banner has been raised (no implicit statement that we fight FOR whomever raises the banner).

 

Thus spake Hawkwing:

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters.. You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

OTOH, he also said, earlier:

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more."

 

I honestly can't see how he would 'face' LTT and at the same time follow the Dragon.

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I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

There is respect in Hawkwing talking to Rand, there seems to be friendship all among the heroes, as they all chuckle at Rand when he says there is a girl. It makes sense when they are the only people you can talk to for probably decades at a time. I am sure there are dream drinking halls where they all talk abut their lives lived, with new tales coming in as living heroes die, living vicariously through each other as they wait for their turn in the flesh.

 

The horn is different magic from the true source, and the dragon is different too, so perhaps the horn and the dragon are the same type and bound together. I just think it makes it more interesting if they aren't. If the weave for that moment required the banner, but not every time. If it could of been used in the AoL but they thought it was just superstition and their magical technology was the only thing that really works.

 

I loved Shadar Logoth in the first book because it was like you have this whole scientific theory of magic, but here is something that doesn't fit with it. I have always thought it was a missed opportunity that after the first three books, introducing TAR, the portal stones, taveren, and kind of the Finns, everything has been one power or true power related.

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It's possible the Horn is tied to Illian for the same reason the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand will wear a Crown of Swords. Is it a coincidence that the Dragon wears the crown of Illian and Illian is also the city that legends says the Horn should be brought to? It's doubtful. Whether the legends tying the Horn to Illian are because of something said in the Prophecies or not, it's clear that it can't be a coincidence.

There is no indication Illian is tied to the Horn through legends. Illian is tied to the Horn because they are the ones that kept calling the Great Hunt.

 

Thus spake Hawkwing:
"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters.. You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

OTOH, he also said, earlier:

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more."

 

I honestly can't see how he would 'face' LTT and at the same time follow the Dragon.

"The weave of this moment is set." This moment. Following the Dragon and the Banner is a requirement this time, but that is not to say that it is always true.
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Only Robert Jordan could introduce a powerful magical artifact, which easily summons an unstoppable army of legendary heroes ready to conquer and raze at their master's command early in the series... and stuff it literally in the closet for the duration of 11 books, instead having its "owner" stumble about the landscape, doing whatever, bemoaning his cruel fate, engaging in petty arguments over character incompatibility, getting his "bottom" pinched by mage-women and running from an unkillable assassin. That's the guy who has undisputed claim over a horn which can defeat any foe without him raising a finger.

 

Soap opera and slapstick comedy above all, eh, Jordan?

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Moiraine told Loial when she first opened the chest that it must go to Illian, she told Agelmar that it must go there. Suian said it must be taken to Illian, Illian was where it was to go before it was stolen. To think that they only thought it needed to be there because Illian liked calling the hunt is ridiculous. There is something that ties the horn to Illian, and I hope it is explained in aMoL.

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I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

So this would be a non-Dragon incarnation and/or a non-Artur Paendrag incarnation? That makes sense. So, for example: AIUI, Hawkwing was around some considerable time after LTT and the War of the Shadow; but it's quite likely that the Hawkwing-soul may have been there - perhaps as one of Demandred's Eighty and One (ToM51).. And inversely, the LTT-soul may have been one of Hawkwing's opponents as he worked on unifying the Westlands.

 

Anyway, I like that one better than a 'Pattern-level event' or 'rift in the Pattern' approach! :tongue:

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Moiraine told Loial when she first opened the chest that it must go to Illian, she told Agelmar that it must go there. Suian said it must be taken to Illian, Illian was where it was to go before it was stolen. To think that they only thought it needed to be there because Illian liked calling the hunt is ridiculous. There is something that ties the horn to Illian, and I hope it is explained in aMoL.

 

It's interesting, as well, that Rand became king of Illian and wore the Crown of Swords (ACoS41)...

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I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

So this would be a non-Dragon incarnation and/or a non-Artur Paendrag incarnation? That makes sense. So, for example: AIUI, Hawkwing was around some considerable time after LTT and the War of the Shadow; but it's quite likely that the Hawkwing-soul may have been there - perhaps as one of Demandred's Eighty and One (ToM51).. And inversely, the LTT-soul may have been one of Hawkwing's opponents as he worked on unifying the Westlands.

 

Anyway, I like that one better than a 'Pattern-level event' or 'rift in the Pattern' approach! :tongue:

I meant like maybe Marc Antony with his love for Cleopatra was the Dragon and Hawkwing was Augustus. Or the empire building Hawkwing was Hitler vs the gather the nations Dragon as Churchill. Maybe they will be on either side of the Raven empire in the fourth age. Or the same side. They are reborn again and again and we know nothing of atleast four of the seven ages. As long as the Dragon doesn't have to be the light incarnate to fight the dark one like in the third and putting out an opposing force won't destroy the pattern in like in the second or third, then they could be spun out in unprecedented ways.

 

Though, spinning out a hero and having him commit genocide would probably mess with him in TAR a bit when he come back to his baseline personality.

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