Birgitte

[CauthonsLuck]

Can someone explain the whole Birgitte getting pulled out of tel'aran'rhiod thing? I don't understand it at all. Lots of poeple die in tel'aran'rhiod but why does Birgitte get pulled back into the real world? Is it just because she is a hero or something or is there something more meaningful that Moghedien did to her? Also, does the silver arrow that appears there have any hidden meaning or is it just there so that Thom and Julian can have an idea of who she really is?

[Roxinos]

Moghedien didn't kill her. Moghedien shoved her out of tel'aran'rhiod.

 

So she didn't get "pulled back" into the real world. It was entirely intentional on Moghedien's part.

[Durinax]

no mogh tried to kill her in tar (in fact thought she did)

 

elayne pulled her from tar with the bond to try to save her life

[Roxinos]

elayne pulled her from tar with the bond to try to save her life

 

Birgitte was already in the real world when Elayne bonded her. She did not "pull her from tar" by bonding her. Birgitte was forced out of the World of Dreams quite violently, and was dying. Elayne bonded her to keep her alive.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Mogy pulled her from TAR on purpose. She thought it would be the ultimate punishment to Birgitte. That is breaking her cycle of rebirth with Gaidal.

[Durinax]

oh I always read it the other way around for some reason

[Luckers]

Yeah no, Moghedien threw her out of TAR, for the purpose of seperating her from Gaidal (and thus causing her extreme emotional pain). Being thrown out was killing her (which I'm pretty sure was not Moghedien's intention) so Elayne bonded her, which saved her life.

[CauthonsLuck]

So when Birgitte dies will she be put back into tel'aran'rhiod or is she just gone?

[rand4747]

we don't know. Likely she will earn her place as a Hero again but it may not be the same as before.

[Suttree]

Do we know if what Mogy did separated her soul from the Horn? If not when she dies you would assume she goes back to Tar. I always took as if she was just yanked out before her proper time of rebirth.

[aross]

This is actually a great question, one that hasn't been examined too closely. The books supply us with no explanation of how Moghedien casts Birgitte from Tel'aran'rhiod. That she did so intentionally is quite clear. She wanted to hurt Birgitte, cast her out, probably to die. Little chance that Moghedien thought that Elayne (or anyone) would think of a way to save Birgitte's life. The consequences if she dies there? Maybe she dies the final death. Or maybe, she returns to Tel'aran'rhiod for another turning of the Wheel. Meantime Gaidal Cain is out there in the world and Birgitte isn't.

 

But if anyone believes they know what Moghedien actually did, I'd certainly be interested to read.

[Gympok]

So when Birgitte dies will she be put back into tel'aran'rhiod or is she just gone?

 

If i remember correctly Min has viewings of Brigetta later, that shows her tied to a older man, and a man much younger, so i assume she will still be bound as a hero. I dont remember what book this was in, just going off memory.

[FarShainMael]

It's in WH12:

 

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

The bit about 'sometimes older' and 'sometimes youmger' I take to mean the relation of the viewings to Birgitte as she was right then in front of Min.

[Naresh]

As my personal view of the various Heroes of the Horn has always been one that they are not necessarily 'souls' as we know them in WoT so much as they are archetypes of heroic ideals that are given life by Tel'Aran'Rhiod itself (for where else would the archetypical heroes exist but in the dreams of men), I do wonder at this point.

 

When Moggy cast Birgitte out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod, there's just not enough information as to how it happened. Was she actually eradicating an archetype from the collective subconscious of the people of the WoT world, or just throwing an unwanted personage out of 'her' realm? It stands to reason that throwing an actual flesh-and-blood person who is simply projecting themselves into the world of dreams out of T'A'R shouldn't be too difficult for an expert Dreamwalker, but how exactly does one cast out a non-corporeal being and at the same time grant them living flesh that seems to function as well as any other person born through normal means?

 

Tel'Aran'Rhiod is known as a reflection of the Pattern as a whole, in all its aspects, and as such I've never taken it to be an actual physical place- though a physical entity can enter it (at great risk of humanity according to the Wise Ones), but Moggy's little bit of wonder working here is one of the great mysteries of the world. It almost hints that T'A'R itself is not so much an imagined place of fantasy and dreamscapes but a physical one every bit as real and detailed as the waking world- with fleshly beings and all. After all, if Birgitte had an actual body and wasn't just a cultural image while in T'A'R, it would at least help explain how she happened to come into the 'real' world with a wholly physical body.

 

In such an interpretation of T'A'R's mechanics, though, one would have to assume that the thoughtforms of the Dreamwalker are actually akin to a Xerox copy of the person's own body which becomes created upon entry, inhabited during one's stay, and dissolves upon exit. Which might very well explain why Hopper still has a body in the wolf dream, though I've always considered him to be more a construct of Perrin's dreaming mind.

 

But any other truth about the nature of the world of dreams would negate this hypothesis and we might just have to accept the idea that Moghedien's will within Tel'Aran'Rhiod is so strong she can create things in the physical world where they didn't before- while any other dreamwalker is capable only of creating things within T'A'R that don't necessarily exist in the real world...

 

I'm probably circling in on myself at this point, so I'll leave it there. Regardless, this is a great topic well worth some more examination. It makes me wonder if RJ addressed this at any point that I'm not aware of, or if BS happens to have any extra knowledge of it.

[rand4747]

when your soul is in TAR it creates a physical form, you can adjust it however you want though. People who enter in the flesh though and the heroes may or may not be able to alter their form I don't think its come up anywhere, but the Heroes are capable of making themselves invisible. So the heroes are a soul without a physical body in the real world its attached to, so its sorta like they are fully into the world of dreams, in the flesh almost except the didn't enter from the real world. Anyway at least for those that exist entirely in the dream it is possible they can be ejected from it, if someone can gateway in and out then there is possibly a way to do it to force someone out. For those dreaming they will probably "disolve" trying to leave via gateway or anything, or maybe the gateway just wont "let them" through. Hopper probably has a place similar to the heros his soul is there without a body so it may be possible to eject him into the real world to, if he hadn't died the final death. But dying in TAR at least for a normal human I don't believe they then cant ever be reborn, just go back to the queue of people to be reborn normally :p The heroes if they died in the dream probably would have ceased to be heroes and would go to the regular queue to.

 

 

But back to birgitte, I think the ripping out probably removed her from the heroes but she may earn it back again. I think thats how moggy wanted her to suffer by removing her from Gaidal Cain forever.

[kght22]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

[Naggash]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

[A. Pseudonym]

What is interesting about the arrow is that it seemed to be a creation of TAR and yet somehow travelled into the realworld and survived.

[Naggash]

What is interesting about the arrow is that it seemed to be a creation of TAR and yet somehow travelled into the realworld and survived.

Please read this theory. I support it.

Ter'alan'rhiod and the mechanics of reality

[kght22]

i said don't ask me, i just think it is curious. i don't have a clue what it means. it is just interesting.

[Terez]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

 

Elayne used it to make Moghedien's a'dam.

[kght22]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

 

Elayne used it to make Moghedien's a'dam.

they had a'dam in reality, all elayne did was remove the leash. nyn put her into a very deep sleep and had an idea where to look. that is how maighden got caught.

 

although i think terez might be right, that silver arrow may have been how the a'dam that was used on moggy was created. damn i need to re-read myself lmao, it makes sense.

 

elayne and nyn gave up almost everything when they got to salidar, they were given back the arrow, i think terez got it right, damn i need a re-read.

[A. Pseudonym]

Birgitte, when she first appeared in TAR was just a soul, right? So.... then she got shunted into the real world by Moghedien and was then made of flesh and bone. Though she needed the Bond to survive.

 

What is she?

[Naggash]

heh, the arrow, an inanimate object. birgette exits tar naked with only an arrow. don't ask me what it means, not a clue here, but it is quite a curious thing.

Maybe that arrow still has the Heroe-Birgitte power inside and will be used in the LB against a Forsaken or something (don't know where or how but I'm sure it will be used,and it'll be important).

 

Elayne used it to make Moghedien's a'dam.

Nice one. Not concluding but probable.

[CauthonsLuck]

So that's how Moghedien got caught by the a'dam? I never understood how she ended up in an a'dam after the dream.