Were Nyneave and Egwene Mentioned in Dark Prophecy?

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi Everyone.

I was thinking as I was reading Book Two, where Liandrin was telling Suroth that the two girls Nyneave and Egwene had to be taken across the ocean. We, after reading the books know why the two were so important, but how did the Dark Forces know at the time that those two girls were destined to become leaders of the land and key figures in the fight against the Shadow? The only conclusion I can come to is that both were mentioned in Dark Prophecy, somehow, someway...logical? Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

[fikkie77]

They are extremely strong for female channelers and are important to the Dragon Reborn. They were to lure Rand to Falme and at the same time strong channelers for the Light were taken out of the way.

[Naggash]

I don't think they are mentiones in the DP. It's more likely that Semirhage wanted to dispose of them because they were friends with Rand, and from the same village. Maybe it had something to do with being "Morain disciples".

Maybe Semirhage took them for the 2 channelers that would be wielding Callandor with Rand (which Nynaeve is).

They could have killed them but it would be greater to put Compulsion in them. That way the would become eyes and hands of S. at these side of the ocean and maybe even betray Rand the momento Nyneave linked with him.

I say semirhage because if the Seanchan are involved its her doing.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Naggash, If thats the case, why would Semmirhage randomly think Nyneave would link with Rand...unless something was mentioned in Prophecies of the Dark. Fikkie, yes, they were friends of his, but that to me doesnt warrant the "they MUST be taken to the other side of the ocean" quote; it seems more urgent than merely getting rid of his friends, even strong female channelers.

[Naggash]

Well, its not randomly. They're friends, they've grown together, and Nynaeve is the most powerful AS until Sharina arrives, Egwene being only a little bit behind.

The reason they would have been taken through the ocean is probably that Semirhage wanted to use Compulsion on them and maybe even turning them. Why not tell another one to do it? Well, compulsion is not the kind of wave a Forsaken would be randomly teaching. Why not just Travell? Don't have an anwser for these, but it may be because she was busy as Anath and couldn't simply disappear enought time or maybe RJ just wanted us to not know about T at all yet.

[fionwe1987]

Egwene, at least, had been noticed by Ishamael trying to "protect" Rand in the World of Dreams. The last thing he wanted was a powerful Dreamer at Rand's side. He probably had her investigated by the BA, and Nynaeve was also brought to his notice in this way.

 

That said, its hardly unlikely they're in DPs. We don't even know that they're not in the KC. They're as important as Mat and Perrin. It hardly seems likely the KC wold miss them (or Elayne, Min and Aviendha, or even Moiraine and maybe Siuan).

[fikkie77]

Egwene started that after Falme. Verin gave her the Twisted Ring in the beginning of TDR, which started her dreaming adventures.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Fikkie, but Dark Prophecy would be, well, prophetic and know before the event occurred that it was likely to happen.

Effect before cause is the order of prophecy. Maybe thats why its so badly interpreted.

[Knivy]

Mat and Perrin are both mentioned in the Dark Prophecies. I don't have to books with me, but they are named the Gambler and the Wolf King IIRC. And no, noone except Rand is as important as those two. Being Ta'veren elevates ones importance. Another Egwene could be found to lead the White Tower, but noone else can bend chance like Mat. Perrin's situation is a little more precarious, as there are others who can talk to wolves and others who could lead, but not as well as Perrin, the Ta'veren.

[RandA lThor]

They are probably mentioned somewhere as a discreet reference, maybe even the two becoming one for callandor references Nynaeve, which is highly likely in Shadow Prophecies, so I think they are, but that's not the reason they wanted them

[wcbrooks]

I do not think Egwene and Nyneave are in the Dark Prophecy (they are not Ta'veren enough haha)- also where does it mention that Semirhage was the person ordering to capture the girls???

I can not recall that she gave the order - I thought it was through Ishmael to Liandrin and for the reason to lure Rand to Falme and they found a Darkfriend in the Seanshan - Suroth

also because Semirhage was with Tuon.

[Naggash]

I think it was Semirhage because she was the one hiding in Seanchan, acting as Anath. As they were handled to the Seanchan and supposed to be sent though the ocean, it seemed logical to me.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Semirhage was not around at that time. She had not integrated herself into the Seanchan yet. It was too early. It was most likely Ishamael, who knows the Dark Prophecy. The other Forsaken know little about them. Graendal hardly knew of their existence in ToM, only when Ishamael chose to show them to her.

 

It is definitely possible that they are in Prophecy. Remembering that while Rand, Mat and Perrin may be the "stars" of these Prophecies, others can also be mentioned. Isam, for example, is not Ta'veren nor Forsaken status. Nor is Luc. They are both merely connected to Rand. Which is all that is needed to be in a prophecy.

 

It is technically true that both Nynaeve and Egwene can be replaced with others, they are not ta'veren, anyone with the same skills can do. These prophecies probably don't mention them by name or title (Trickster, Fallen Blacksmith etc.). However, due to the circumstances and history between them, certain prophecies fit with them. For example a reference to the Amyrlin. It may not refer to Egwene herself, but she can still fulfil prophecies.

 

For example, the Prophecy about Callandor and he who will "follow after" (for this example, let us say it is fulfilled, it doesn't matter if it is correct to make my point) it does not mention a name. It doesn't mention Narishma specifically, so, as others have argued, it need not actually be fulfilled by Narishma. However, Narishma can fulfil the prophecy.

 

The same for the girls. Obviously Ishamael has recognized their skill and relation and has related them to the Prophecy.

 

For that matter, it need not even be the case. Ishamael could well have been mistaken. They certainly have seemed to have misinterpreted the prophecy in ToM.

[1Brotherbill]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period. Simplest answer to the question. Get those two to the other side of the ocean with a leash on them. Why your at it take the princess with you.

[Suttree]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period.

 

In what way?

[Naggash]

Semirhage was not around at that time. She had not integrated herself into the Seanchan yet. It was too early. It was most likely Ishamael, who knows the Dark Prophecy. The other Forsaken know little about them. Graendal hardly knew of their existence in ToM, only when Ishamael chose to show them to her.

 

It is definitely possible that they are in Prophecy. Remembering that while Rand, Mat and Perrin may be the "stars" of these Prophecies, others can also be mentioned. Isam, for example, is not Ta'veren nor Forsaken status. Nor is Luc. They are both merely connected to Rand. Which is all that is needed to be in a prophecy.

 

It is technically true that both Nynaeve and Egwene can be replaced with others, they are not ta'veren, anyone with the same skills can do. These prophecies probably don't mention them by name or title (Trickster, Fallen Blacksmith etc.). However, due to the circumstances and history between them, certain prophecies fit with them. For example a reference to the Amyrlin. It may not refer to Egwene herself, but she can still fulfil prophecies.

 

For example, the Prophecy about Callandor and he who will "follow after" (for this example, let us say it is fulfilled, it doesn't matter if it is correct to make my point) it does not mention a name. It doesn't mention Narishma specifically, so, as others have argued, it need not actually be fulfilled by Narishma. However, Narishma can fulfil the prophecy.

 

The same for the girls. Obviously Ishamael has recognized their skill and relation and has related them to the Prophecy.

 

For that matter, it need not even be the case. Ishamael could well have been mistaken. They certainly have seemed to have misinterpreted the prophecy in ToM.

Well, you're getting out of yout own point I think. I never said that they couldn't fulfil prophecies, I just said that I found it hardly possible for them being mentioned. And also your post ws about being mentioned or "appear" which is the same. So yeah maybe we were only using the wrong words. I agree with you that thay may fulfil prophecies,

Still I think that's not the reason Ishy wanted them. It's hard to understand what the prophecies say about someone mentioned and his actions, so I don't think Nynave and Egwene would match anything at all until they had already fulfilled their share.

[1Brotherbill]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period.

 

In what way?

 

The two strongest channelers in hundreds if not thousands of years. Equal to if not greater than the Forsaken. Is there any doubt in this?

 

Others came along in later parts of the books. But in the first two books it was clear that these two and Elayne were going to be the strongest channelers non Forsaken alive. Why not send them over seas with a leash on?

[Naggash]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period.

 

In what way?

 

The two strongest channelers in hundreds if not thousands of years. Equal to if not greater than the Forsaken. Is there any doubt in this?

 

Others came along in later parts of the books. But in the first two books it was clear that these two and Elayne were going to be the strongest channelers non Forsaken alive. Why not send them over seas with a leash on?

We agree their strength was one of the motives behind their kidnapping, but "Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period" is utterly false.

Nynaeve manages to beat Moghedien, who is one of the weakest among the female Forsaken, who are in general weaker than the male ones. And that Nynaeve. Egwene beats Mesaana only because they're in TAR. She may be in pair with her but I don't think she could actually beat her in a OP exchange. It would be draw.

[Suttree]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period.

 

In what way?

 

The two strongest channelers in hundreds if not thousands of years. Equal to if not greater than the Forsaken. Is there any doubt in this?

 

They are strong based on current standards for certain. I was wondering why you thought they have the ability to be "more powerful than any Forsaken period". Nyn is only stronger than Moggy and Messy(same level as Semy) while Egwene is below them all.

[Oort]

Because the have the ability to be more powerful than any of the Forsaken period.

 

In what way?

 

The two strongest channelers in hundreds if not thousands of years. Equal to if not greater than the Forsaken. Is there any doubt in this?

 

They are strong based on current standards for certain. I was wondering why you thought they have the ability to be "more powerful than any Forsaken period". Nyn is only stronger than Moggy and Messy(same level as Semy) while Egwene is below them all.

 

They both are capable of kicking some foresaken butt though, albeit in TAR and with the help of an adam in some cases.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Androl is capable of "kicking some Forsaken butt" if he used his talents very wisely. It would be very hard, but possible. Gateway or Deathgate to the face will kill anyone.

 

Point is, anyone is capable of killing one of the Forsaken, anyone who cannot channel, even.

 

Nynaeve is the only one with Forsaken strength though. Even Nynaeve is not "more powerful than any Forsaken", she can only match some of them. Egwene is below every single Forsaken in terms of Power.

 

Ishamael would not feel threatened by them in that way. He (or whoever it was) feared them because they were the ones that could help Rand. If they were sent away - no help for Rand - Rand fails. The Forsaken do not fear them. Perahps Moggy might fear Nynaeve, but Moggy was always a coward. Semirhage certainly had no fear of anyone, not even Rand.

Graendal fears Rand, as did Asmodean, but the rest of them didn't. Perhaps now integrated with LTT they do, but certainly not Nynaeve or Egwene.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Interesting ideas, all. I dont think Egwene and Nyneave are replaceable / interchangeable though; Nyneave has a special talent at Healing that just any woman does not even though there are talented healers, and Egwene has the Dreaming...and all the inner strength training she got with the Aiel that enabled her to do political machinations and be a successful (so far) Amrylin which most 18 year old girls could not.

 

I still read that chapter and feel the urgency says or shows the Shadow had some inkling about the possible futures of both women. Fun to consider though.

[Oort]

 

Point is, anyone is capable of killing one of the Forsaken, anyone who cannot channel, even.

 

Nynaeve is the only one with Forsaken strength though. Even Nynaeve is not "more powerful than any Forsaken", she can only match some of them. Egwene is below every single Forsaken in terms of Power.

 

 

 

That's why I emphasized TAR and adam :)

 

My guess on why they were to be leashed and shipped across the ocean would be because they are childhood friends from the TR. Hit Rand were it hurts, drive him nuts, wich the baddies continually (try to) do throughout the series, not without success.

[TristanWebb]

We know the harem is mentioned in light foretellings, so it is possible that it was in the darkside too. Early in the books, mentions of females connected to Rand could easily be interpreted as Egwene and Nyn.

[1Brotherbill]

Remember Nye beat Mog when she had her channeling block. Egwene is stronger than Moraine by a large margin. Moraine surprised the Forsaken at the Eye of the World by her strength. Elayne equal to Egwene in most aspects. When the AS healed Matt in the Tower. Egwene said she could hold about half that much power. Nye said she could almost hold as much. We know now that the BA was littered throughout the tower. So you could assume that the Shadows plans at Flame would be to take the three strongest channelers aligned with the light out of the picture.

 

Simple strategy. As far as these two beating the Forsaken. I can see it because the Forsaken have a weakness that is they think they are suppose to win. Mog proved it when Nye beat her. After Flame the Forsaken proved that they didn't think they were strong enough to deal with Rand or the others without help. Most fights were chases or they had help in the fights and the Forsaken usually lost.