Economic Stagnation?

[Mr Ares]

Mr. Ares Randland has had 996 years of relative calm, the entire time the population has been decreasing, it isn't subtle and unnoticed, it has been noticed, Ingtar says it out loud.

What is unclear is how it is happening... what mechanism is in effect? why just randland and not the Aiel?

It doesn't make sense.

It does make sense. I explained it. And yes, it is subtle. Something becoming apparent over the course of 996 years is not evidence against it being subtle. If anything, it is evidence for - an unsublte change would be easier to notice. A gradual change would not be immediately apparent. Over a prolonged period, the effects would become hard to miss.

 

Are we sure that the population is actually in decline? Or are we just going off of the inability of governments to hold onto territory and maintain themselves?

Yes, we are sure that the population is in decline. There are a great many sparsely inhabited regions on the map.

[Vardar]

Mr. Ares Randland has had 996 years of relative calm, the entire time the population has been decreasing, it isn't subtle and unnoticed, it has been noticed, Ingtar says it out loud.

What is unclear is how it is happening... what mechanism is in effect? why just randland and not the Aiel?

It doesn't make sense.

 

No comment on population, but the collapse of nations, political instability, and weakening of governments is due to corruption by the infiltration of darkfriends at all levels of power structure. That much has been made obvious. It may be easier to assume that the less bureaucratic and adherence to ji e toh nature of the Aiel have made them more difficult to corrupt and infiltrate.

 

Are we sure that the population is actually in decline? Or are we just going off of the inability of governments to hold onto territory and maintain themselves?

 

 

Just going based on how much the population should have bloomed. Those vast tracts of unclaimed land should have been claimed slowly every generation. Farmers having 9 sons should send some out into nearby empty land, who would then farm the land and have sons and do the same. One would think empires would continue to grow every year, given a lot of empty space. Well, they've got the land, but they're not expanding into it.

 

We don't really know for sure how populated the vast territories of the westlands are. Just because there is no organized political body claiming lines on a map doesn't mean an area isn't populated. Without a government, most of these little villages are probably pretty insulated and don't see much growth. I still stand by my statement that the fertility rate might be lower in Randland compared to in the real world for comparable time periods because of the higher status of women and easier access to contraception.

 

We've had characters state you can go from blank to blank without encountering a village or farm because of the unclaimed tracts of land. It's out there. Umm, I think it was Book 2 where they started talking about that. Hell, Perrin hears about it when he meets Elyas I believe

[boli]

This makes very interesting reading concerning economic stagnation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

[Agitel]

Are we sure that the population is actually in decline? Or are we just going off of the inability of governments to hold onto territory and maintain themselves?

Yes, we are sure that the population is in decline. There are a great many sparsely inhabited regions on the map.

 

Alright, this is a flippant remark, but I wasn't aware that the maps in the book included anything on population density.

[Suttree]

Are we sure that the population is actually in decline? Or are we just going off of the inability of governments to hold onto territory and maintain themselves?

Yes, we are sure that the population is in decline. There are a great many sparsely inhabited regions on the map.

 

Alright, this is a flippant remark, but I wasn't aware that the maps in the book included anything on population density.

 

It is mentioned in the text numerous times in addition to the BWB...

 

BWB

In the Age of Legends, the world was thickly populated, with no lands unclaimed. The disastrous upheavals of the Breaking decimated the population, but a gradual recovery meant that by the end of the reign of Artur Hawkwing, all the land between the Aiel Waste and the Aryth Ocean harbored some level of civilization. After Hawkwing's death, however, the population began a gradual decrease that the chaos of the War of the Hundred Years alone does not account for. Toward the end of the war rulers were claiming lands they lacked the manpower to hold. This decline has continued until the present, and there are now vast tracts of unpopulated land unclaimed by any nation, as well as areas that, though claimed in theory, are in practice autonomous and beyond the scope of their "official" ruler to defend or control. Towns and even some cities lie abandoned and in ruin.

No one is certain why the population has declined, though some theorize that it has been caused by the Dark One's touch through the gradually weakening seals. Others believe it is simply a by-product of the world's forced return to more primitive ways as knowledge and the tools of civilization have been lost. Whatever the reason, all nations are affected by it, from the vast too-empty halls of the powerful White Tower, to the little village of Emond's Field in Andor, which has forgotten it ever belonged to a Queen or was part of a larger nation.

 

RJ has made it quite clear that in this age he is describing a fallen world.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Suttree

[Agitel]

Thanks, Suttree. That's the type of source I wanted.

[Maleshub]

Thanks, Suttree. That's the type of source I wanted.

 

You can rely on Suttree to put on the table the "evidence" to sway many a discussion.

[jsbrads]

Benevolent: that is a good arguement for people to up and expand in an area far from an established town, but not explain why established cities would collapse, as I mentioned Two Rivers should be bursting, and I would give a hall pass to western Cairheinians, but the rest of Randland?

 

Mr Ares: completely didn't understand your remark...

Master: you too, didn't understand your remark...

[TristanWebb]

There are plenty of examples of farming communities hundreds of years old in poor conditions that never expanded. I was always under the impression that the two rivers wasn't particularly fertile, just that the people were too stubborn to leave it.

 

City collapse outside of those that failed after the hundred years war isn't in the text, and the ones that failed then can be explained easily by standard empire collapse economics. Technological stagnation over a thousand years is longer than our history suggests, but not really longer than is plausible, if merchant classes don't have a high enough income they cannot challenge the aristocracy and aristocracy are notoriously good at keeping the statis quo.

 

You have to remember that in our world, there are lots of places that are taboo to go, (this part is probably controversial on an international board and I don't mean to offend anyone) even when there is no evidence of any supernatural activity. There is proof in Randland of places that will actually kill you with magic if you step foot in them, so the Sand Hills being bad luck isn't just a local superstition, but for all intents and purposes might actually make anything you do for the rest of your life fail, with actual evidence that there are places where this is true.

 

Some guy going to that mountain over there might be unlucky and start showing signs of epilepsy in our world, thus starting a belief that it is haunted, in Randland that guy and everyone else who goes there will 100% of the time be affected in the same way. The amount of places that you can't go would be exponentially higher there just from having Shadar Logoth in the world, not to mention any random ter'angreal that make spooky sounds, chills or images.

 

It is a perfectly valid belief in a world like that that if a farm failed, it is haunted. If a land failed it is under the Dark One's gaze. I am surprised that Myrdraal and Trollocs are travelers tales instead of every bandit pretending to be them myself, but then darkfriendedness seems to be reliant on there being non darkfriends around to influence. Random witch in the woods doesn't really exist in WoT like it does/did in our world.

 

(note: I am a naturalist, I don't mean to offend anyone with my assumptions that ghosts and magic and such don't really exist, but I often find my views are based on my beliefs as everyone elses are and in other countries being a naturalistic atheist is pretty much worse than killing babies according to media so I try not to preach about it, but in this case it is central to my arguments so cannot be avoided)

[jsbrads]

Benevolent:

In Two Rivers, I think only the distant mountains have taboo, and the western farms have stony soil, but if you recall Perrin's tours of the the center of two rivers, it all seems very fertile and sparsely populated.

 

Empire collapse... not really sure I have ever heard much about this, perhaps Mayan city collapse, or fall of Roman empire, the people didn't disappear, Greece and Italy continue to exist, they are not vacant lands!? There are only theories about the Mayan city collapse, but I think people just left the city to live in villages, I don't think people disappeared.

 

There are definitely places people would not want to go, but there are so many places where people can go.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares: completely didn't understand your remark...

Whcih part didn't you understand? If it was the part about subtlety, allow me to explain b way of an analogy. If you had a favourite chair, and I shaved a tiny bit off the ends of the legs, then over time your chair would end up much lower. It is a subtle change - less than a millimetre being lost each time - but the effect eventually becomes very noticeable. By the same token, the declining birthrate is subtle. It's not like they woke up one morning and all the children were gone, it's a case of it becoming apparent over a long period that something is amiss. If it was unsubtle, it would be immeditately apparent. That it took so long to become truly noticeable indicates a subtle change. The eternal summer was also a subtle change - it starts as a regular summer. Then that summer goes on a bit longer than normal. It's only over time that it becomes apparent that there is a deeper problem.

[wcbrooks]

not going to get into a big argument over everything but I shall provide my 2 cents about the population decline :)

 

Look at the world today alot of countries have a low or declining population and a low or declining population birth (mostly Western countries) the only thing that improves population growth within them is immigration.

Randland has little immigration between countries that I have read about.

Also there is a link between Western Countries, major cities, lifestyle, work life, persoanl choices and population growths - basically saying there is no 1 answer to the question

 

now my 2 cents about economic stagnation - is not caused by war or nobility...Economic stagnation is determined by 'trade' and has a life cycle of booms and depressions (Randland has had no boom) - for example in reagrds to war; before each World War the world was entering into a depression lack of trade and investment among the nations a war happens decreases population - so same amount of jobs avaliable (more in fact) but with less people fighting over them, with a surge in growth and a nation fighting a war - innovation and creativity happens (alot of the stuff we use was or was thought about or created during war time example the internet, the jeep, the red cross etc etc the list can go on). The effects of this creates a a boom period in a life cycle and carries over after war

 

again my 2 cents about thing in this question and again debatable no basically serves as not an answer just an opinion abuot things and hey there is more then one reason to the question :)

[jsbrads]

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

 

wc brooks: are you saying abortions and contraception are the tools of Shaitan?

WW population were not based factual realities, but psycological realities, people had low motivation to have children during a war, but after the war, the relief and blooming hope encourages increased birth rate.

wars depress economies, becasue people spend less. and there are fewer businesses are open so the jobs market can be even worse. increases in population grow the economy, increased demand.

[wcbrooks]

wc brooks: are you saying abortions and contraception are the tools of Shaitan?

WW population were not based factual realities, but psycological realities, people had low motivation to have children during a war, but after the war, the relief and blooming hope encourages increased birth rate.

wars depress economies, becasue people spend less. and there are fewer businesses are open so the jobs market can be even worse. increases in population grow the economy, increased demand.

 

HAHA - funny

abortions and contraception are not tools for Shaitan - and they have every little to do with diminshing populations and low mortality rates

WW populations - it has nothing about low motivation, they were busy doing something else...and you will find that in the recreation countries - where soliders were sent for R&R - there is a major spike for baby births in those times.

and it is not about the relief and blooming hope encourages birth rate - its about the majority of men returning home.

 

There is not a WW now but most countries are having a low mortality rate and some in the negative.

 

and war does not depress an economy (I think you are talking about an individual level but not an overall picture) before the WWs there was the depression beforehand, lets take a look at WW2 in America before WW2 low jobs and no money, they decided to enter the war men leave for war the gaps in jobs are filled by woman etc therefore maintain production levels instead of the majority goes to companies, they are serviced to the government and used in during war time - companies make money, few companies (that last) mean that companies can increase there price and decrease there costs, fewer people means more skilled or unskilled jobs means people get a good pay (for those times). and increase in population means higher unemployment levels and means more people then jobs so pay is less. After the WW many countries and companies around the world both allies and axis were boosted.

 

There are many books and examples to reflect this

 

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

 

you can not directly compare the real world and randland - but expontential growths and other mathematical modeling have been around for centuries - but go back 1000 years and ask them if they know that the popualtion is decreasing they have no comparsions for the last 40 years (and randland does not either) and back when mathematical formulas and models were done there was no school like we have today...and i think its the reflection back that makes it not subtle but at the time you do not see it...did it fell dramatically i thought it was a decline

[wcbrooks]

Benevolent:

In Two Rivers, I think only the distant mountains have taboo, and the western farms have stony soil, but if you recall Perrin's tours of the the center of two rivers, it all seems very fertile and sparsely populated.

 

Empire collapse... not really sure I have ever heard much about this, perhaps Mayan city collapse, or fall of Roman empire, the people didn't disappear, Greece and Italy continue to exist, they are not vacant lands!? There are only theories about the Mayan city collapse, but I think people just left the city to live in villages, I don't think people disappeared.

 

There are definitely places people would not want to go, but there are so many places where people can go.

 

A group of people can from a city...disappear....there are parts or Italy and Greece that no one or little farms...Greece did not disappear the Greek States merged as a single country, Rome the city burnt and was piilaged the people dispersed and other tribes eg Vandals, Goths, Visgoths lived there. Rome then became Italy and became a papacy state. Before there were the Mayan Cities they have found other big Cities underneath from another time and another group of people....so cities do come and go and the people either leave or merge with the new people.

[DaoineSidhe]

I think that it is somewhat clear that the reasons for the overall civilization and population decline in Randland is due to the Dark One's still present, however faintly, Touch on the World/Pattern, through Lew Therin's imperfect Seals.

 

-Right after the Breaking, when population levels, we assume, hit a Low, Civilization somewhat re-Built itself, if not quite as well, given they only had 1,000 years to rebuild compared to however advanced AoL was (possibly 3,000 years, world had forgotten War, or maybe longer). But population levels seeming grew, allowing for contiguous countries throughout the continent. The Seals were New. No DO Touch, population grows as one would expect.

 

-First Major Weakening of Seals: Trolloc Wars. We know Ishamael was partially free during this time, and given that the Seals have probably been weakening for awhile, and not needed them to Break completely before things can escape it. Destruction on a large scale. Post Trolloc Wars new low point in population and civilization again.

 

-Rise of New Nations, eventually culminating in Artur Hawkwing: Again, population levels rose, and civilization advanced, although not quite as far in a roughly equal time period. Why? Well, the Seals were slightly weaker, allowing the DO to start affecting events, however slightly.

 

-Second Major Weakening of Seals: War of Hundred Years. Again the Seals have weakened enough for Ishamael to walk the world again, and again he unleashes chaos, etc, and the end of which is a new low population/civilization point.

 

-New Era: With the Seals at their weakest yet, indeed, they are breaking at the end of the Third Major Weakening Cycle, the Dark One's touch is most noticeable. Population levels are in decline, due to the Dark One's Touch, and while there are still Bastions of Civilization, the infrastructure, resources, and manpower just isn't there to allow for expansion. I tend to think the DO is doing this in one of two ways. Affecting birth mortality rates slightly, and possibly slightly affecting the weather enough to never allow for regions to start producing high yields of crops for extended periods, which leads to excess food, which leads to population growth in many early societies. Not on the level of Eternal Winter or Summer, but a little less rain here, a little too much there, and poof! There goes your surplus foodstuffs.

[Xeratul]

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

[Mr Ares]

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

It fell dramatically over the course of 1,000 years. That's precisely why I term it subtle. Yes, it has a very noticeable effect over a prolonged period, but it needs a long period to become apparent. Over a short period, it is not noticeable. A definition of subtle: "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand". The population decline is difficult to perceive. It requires centuries of information.

 

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

The Yellow Ajah are not always available. Only 1% of the population can channel at all, not all of them will become channelers, not all of them have great strength, not all of them will have any noteable degree of skill with Healing (some strong AS lack enough Talent in Healing to Heal a bruise). Unless useful magic is readily available, there is an incentive to find non-magical solutions to problems.

[Xeratul]

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

It fell dramatically over the course of 1,000 years. That's precisely why I term it subtle. Yes, it has a very noticeable effect over a prolonged period, but it needs a long period to become apparent. Over a short period, it is not noticeable. A definition of subtle: "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand". The population decline is difficult to perceive. It requires centuries of information.

 

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

The Yellow Ajah are not always available. Only 1% of the population can channel at all, not all of them will become channelers, not all of them have great strength, not all of them will have any noteable degree of skill with Healing (some strong AS lack enough Talent in Healing to Heal a bruise). Unless useful magic is readily available, there is an incentive to find non-magical solutions to problems.

 

While I appreciate these points, I don't believe they would matter to the population of the world at large. Almost every single disease has already been conquered. What is the point of more medical advancement. Medicine akin to our in such a world would really only be seen as the advil of the curative world. It would only be useful for a quick fix. Almost every kind of terminal disease is curable with a pilgrimage to the White Tower in the North and Central of the continent. Those in the South can simply go visit a Ring member near them. I believe this would be similar to the doctor shortage we currently have. Because we suffer from a dearth of doctors, to cure most serious recurring disease takes months. But most people don't see too much with it because we know that if we had a truly large problem, we could get it fixed with enough perseverance. This kind of mindset is endemic.

 

I really think that it would affect a magic using world in a serious way causing lethargy and general malaise with regard to technology. The best and easiest way to advance technology is to identify magic users and utilize them to their fullest the way the Seanchan empire does. Why create a bulldozer when you can leash a woman who can do much the same thing and more. Further, this tool won't break down for 300+ years. In the world of the Wheel of Time, I believe that the Seanchan solution is the most likely progression.

[wcbrooks]

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

It fell dramatically over the course of 1,000 years. That's precisely why I term it subtle. Yes, it has a very noticeable effect over a prolonged period, but it needs a long period to become apparent. Over a short period, it is not noticeable. A definition of subtle: "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand". The population decline is difficult to perceive. It requires centuries of information.

 

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

The Yellow Ajah are not always available. Only 1% of the population can channel at all, not all of them will become channelers, not all of them have great strength, not all of them will have any noteable degree of skill with Healing (some strong AS lack enough Talent in Healing to Heal a bruise). Unless useful magic is readily available, there is an incentive to find non-magical solutions to problems.

 

While I appreciate these points, I don't believe they would matter to the population of the world at large. Almost every single disease has already been conquered. What is the point of more medical advancement. Medicine akin to our in such a world would really only be seen as the advil of the curative world. It would only be useful for a quick fix. Almost every kind of terminal disease is curable with a pilgrimage to the White Tower in the North and Central of the continent. Those in the South can simply go visit a Ring member near them. I believe this would be similar to the doctor shortage we currently have. Because we suffer from a dearth of doctors, to cure most serious recurring disease takes months. But most people don't see too much with it because we know that if we had a truly large problem, we could get it fixed with enough perseverance. This kind of mindset is endemic.

 

I really think that it would affect a magic using world in a serious way causing lethargy and general malaise with regard to technology. The best and easiest way to advance technology is to identify magic users and utilize them to their fullest the way the Seanchan empire does. Why create a bulldozer when you can leash a woman who can do much the same thing and more. Further, this tool won't break down for 300+ years. In the world of the Wheel of Time, I believe that the Seanchan solution is the most likely progression.

 

Yellow Ajah arrogance - I remember reading that they were the only really useful Ajah (they thought not me) - So over time all the major diseases are cured and nothing else to cure hence the weaves are the same, over time they become arrogant and closed off from anything and only cure major things and let the Wisdom/Wise Women etc to cure the colds, with herbs etc and to keep them informed if any other major epidemic happens. This a reflective theme in the real world as Medivial doctors used leeches to cure everything and anything....they was no other way to cure anyone...then after centuries of time new ways developed.

 

 

I agree that they have replaced technology with Magic (as with most fantasy themes) because of that very reason, why would they create a bulldozer when you can have a channeller leashed to do it...except that the some of the general popualtion (non magic users) must be thnking it and doing it...as in evidence in the Schools Rand started, and even in the Age of Legends - Jo-cars or Sho-Wings - why create them if magic was all around and gateways could be created???

[Xeratul]

Rand should make the people at his schools focus on the problem of food spoilage. But like all autocrats, he has little concern for the every day needs of tme people. He sees grand visions of a return to the way things used to be. With greater centralization, we see greater innovation, but this innovation is forced on people. Very few people care about recapturing old technologies when the demands for living day to day are so pressing. The more you remove the individual's desires government, the more government can focus on steam engines and the like.

[wcbrooks]

Rand should make the people at his schools focus on the problem of food spoilage. But like all autocrats, he has little concern for the every day needs of tme people. He sees grand visions of a return to the way things used to be. With greater centralization, we see greater innovation, but this innovation is forced on people. Very few people care about recapturing old technologies when the demands for living day to day are so pressing. The more you remove the individual's desires government, the more government can focus on steam engines and the like.

 

Nice point - didn't Rand also spot a ploughing machine that can do four or fine at a time?? sorry no reference just a vague memory

[DaoineSidhe]

Actually, Rand is probably having his schools develop in the best possible way. There are NO limits on what someone can come to one of his academies to learn/design/invent. He takes all comers. So there are already quite a few people who have been working on the food shortage issue in his schools, mentioned at least a couple of times in the series. (multiple row-planter, animal-powered scythe, maybe a few others, not sure)

 

As for the food spoilage, we know its because of the DO. It's highly doubtful that these scholars could find a way to counteract the DO's touch on the Pattern. In pretty much every instance we've seen, it takes someone wielding the OP to counteract the DO's Pattern-Altering Abilities. (Rand in tEotW channeling the Eye at the end, Bowl of the Winds, Most bubbles of Evil are resistant or impervious to normal weapons, and must be destroyed by the OP.). And while there is a slight chance they may have solved this issue, it would have been at great cost.

 

To tell a group like this to focus on one thing would destroy the institution and what it was created for. In giving such a clear mission, you have now limited what types of outcomes will result out of these schools. The idea Rand has is to gather as many scholars as possible, a) to better protect and preserve them and their knowledge in the coming Breaking, and b) a safe place for these people to experiment and solve problems. Given this free atmosphere, many different scholars come together, and solve problems in many different ways. Some of the scholars at these schools have no expertise, experience, or interest in agriculture/DO touching the pattern. What should these scholars have done? Leave? Change their specialty at the whim of the Dragon Reborn? That sounds much more autocratic than the situation we have in the books to me.

 

Plus, to a certain degree, the food shortage issue is a short term problem. It is a result of the DO touching the world, and TG is coming soon. So either:

 

A) DO Wins: Wheel broken, Time Ends, Everybody dead. Food spoilage doesn't matter anymore

 

B) Rand and the forces of the Light win: DO at least Sealed again, and w/o him touching the world, food stops spoiling.

 

So if all of these schools, designed to solve problems/be a haven for knowledge, were instead tasked with dealing with food spoilage, post-TG, they'd have nothing ready to offer the world to help the rebuilding process. With the way Rand designed the schools, we already have an early steam engine, advances in military sciences, early astronomy, and a few others. Which way would you rather have the schools run?

Edited July 4, 2012 by DaoineSidhe

[Xeratul]

My food spoilage quip was sarcasm. Though it is fair to point out that a grant system would be much more economically feasible than Rand's schools. Most of the research done at Rand's schools is pointless given that the world is poised on the edge of the final battle. It is clearly just a last, desperate effort for Rand to immortalize his short reign. I thing it would be much more fiscally responsible for him to just have a statue built and put the rest of the money towards the war effort.

 

Also, with respect to food spoilage, there are instances in the book where the one power and even more mundane efforts such as cold storage (cellars and iceboxes) can slow the food degradation. This is very important given the very finite food resources that must tide the world over up until the final battle and afterwards in the event of victory. I do however think the books focused far too much on this spoilage. At the rate it was supposedly happening half the people in the world should be dead by now anyway.

[TristanWebb]

Oh, if we are talking about responsibility, it would be most responsible to conscript every person in the world, abolish currency and force everyone to either make swords, use them or grow food for the armies. You are talking about the end of the world here, enslave everyone to make sure it doesn't happen.

 

But the world doesn't work that way, you have the whole 'what is the point of saving the world if you have already destroyed it' mentality. So let him build schools founded on unguided research, it is the only way to make truely groundbreaking discoveries.