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Ebou Dar


Terez
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Spoilers from the Orbit cover blurb.

 

It's not incredibly clear whether the blurb is supposed to imply that Mat goes to Ebou Dar in the beginning of the book, but you would think they wouldn't skip important things. So, let's assume that it makes sense. There are a few details worth considering.

 

1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

2. Min's viewing of two dead men surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, in conjunction with a viewing of a smoking pipe. This is widely believed to indicate Talmanes on both counts (his pipe theoretically has a tracer weave set on it by Demandred), though it would have to have something to do with Rand, since she saw it around Rand. The Band is camped between the city and 10,000 mercenaries; they probably don't stand a chance. What if all of them in Caemlyn die, and the ones with Elayne are the only ones left by the time Mat can even do anything?

 

3. If Mat shows up to Merrilor, learns that someone is doing something about the dreamspike problem, and that Rand knows who his wife is, he might find it difficult to resist doing his duty and going to find Tuon. Obviously they got married for a reason, and this is it.

 

4. We know there will be a reunion between all the major characters at Merrilor; that's been confirmed since Brandon first decided to split AMOL into three books. The reunion was originally intended to be at the end of TOM, but they didn't quite get Mat there. If Mat went straight to Caemlyn, it's doubtful he'd reach Merrilor any time soon. And so, it's probably safe to assume he won't be able to go there at all, at least at first.

 

I just wonder who will defend Caemlyn, if anyone. Rand will not want Elayne to endanger herself. She's pregnant, so even more so. This seems to be where the time-manipulating element comes in to help Elayne have her babies by the time Rand is resurrected, but maybe not. She also has a white-hot iron and an axe to contend with, and a theme of getting in over her head due to her overconfidence in Min's viewing.

 

We also have good foreshadowing that Rand could die in Caemlyn, and not just because of Arthurian legend. He died in Caemlyn a few times in his Portal Stone experiences; Egwene saw him dying in Caemlyn as it was attacked by Shadowspawn in her Accepted test, or begging her to kill him so that he wouldn't be turned to the Shadow. We know that Rand is fiercely overprotective of his women, and that it would probably even be acceptable to Elayne for him to help her defend Caemlyn, since it's being attacked by Shadowspawn, and he's the Dragon Reborn and all. It's hardly a War of Succession.

 

We also have reason to believe that Demandred might want to lure Rand to Caemlyn, or to the Black Tower, either one, hence his Last Battle plans focusing there....but the pyre on the DKS cover seems to be in front of Dragonmount. Or Shayol Ghul. Nowhere near Caemlyn, certainly.

 

Most importantly, Nicola's Foretelling indicates that Rand will die before a truce is accomplished with the Seanchan. I once thought that Rand would die at the end of TOM; when he didn't, I assumed it would happen near the beginning of AMOL. The Whelan cover seems to make that less likely, since it's definitely pre-resurrection, but it's still interesting that Rand apparently goes to Shayol Ghul without his truce. And difficult to figure out Rand's thought process. We knew that simply from the cover, but the Mat-Ebou Dar thing seems to add another element to it. It seems the kind of thing that Rand would do, sending Mat off to Tuon, but why wouldn't he wait for Mat to come back? Maybe Tuon won't let him leave? When does Mat go get the Horn? Will he make it in time to prevent the Tar Valon attack?

Edited by Terez
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1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

This one doesn't really make sense once you take the BT timeline issue into account. They are a week or two behind everyone else and BS already stated that it needs to be cleaned up and will be caught up really early in aMoL before he can move on with other arcs.

Slayer moving the Dreamspike from the BT to the heart of Caemlyn and causing another confrontation with Perrin doesn't seem out of the question though.

 

#2 looks interesting, however, the Palace itself will most likely hold. We got a hint to that in Mat's PoV on his way to see Elayne in ToM. He saw how the Palace is fantastic defensive fortress and wonders how he didn't notice that before.

Edited by Finnssss
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This should be a part of the back cover thread.

 

No, it shouldn't.

 

1. Caemlyn is probably going to be included in the area of the dreamspike at some point. If Grady can't Travel there, then Mat can't do anything about the battle. Or at least, he would have a hard time doing something about it. And they might not even have word of the battle, if no one can escape to spread word about it. Androl might come in there, but will he reach Merrilor?

 

This one doesn't really make sense once you take the BT timeline issue into account. They are a week or two behind everyone else and BS already stated that it needs to be cleaned up and will be caught up really early in aMoL before he can move on with other arcs.

 

We can place the activation of the dreamspike with the other groups, though, and it's very recent. Just because it's going to be taken care of early in the book doesn't mean that the main characters are automatically excluded from being involved. It just means that he has to catch up Pevara and Androl. The Dragon Reborn will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent with blood and fire. All that good stuff. It's probably connected in some way. And the dreamspike is presumably why Perrin is fighting Slayer again, perhaps the same night Rand has his dream.

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Putting the Truce aside for a moment, I think that Rand will send Mat to Ebou Dar to fetch Tuon to be a part of the Dragons Peace.

 

The invasion will have already commenced when Mat reaches Ebou Dar. Tuon wouldn't be on the front lines, she would still be in Ebou Dar, so Mat would likely meet with her and convince her to meet with Rand, if not call off the whole attack. While Egwene is fighting the Seanchan already invading, Mat/Tuon will turn up and stop it. Fulfilling some viewings probably. And Mat will get the Horn.

 

Now, in regards to Rand going to Shayol Ghul early, it could be that with the attack on Caemlyn, on Tar Valon and others, he feels that it is too dangerous to wait. If say, Elayne is in trouble, he may rush off to Shayol Ghul to end it ala. Rahvin.

 

 

 

This one doesn't really make sense once you take the BT timeline issue into account. They are a week or two behind everyone else and BS already stated that it needs to be cleaned up and will be caught up really early in aMoL before he can move on with other arcs.

 

The Black Tower situation may not be resolved. The Dreamspike is still active 1 day before Merrilor, Rand sends Naeff to the BT before going to meet the Borderlanders. Perrin is about to check on the Black Tower that night.

 

All the Black Tower needs is to catch up, this does not mean that Taim is defeated and the Black Tower is brought to the Light.

Even if this does happen, it doesn't mean the destruction of the Dreamspike.

Indeed, it could be that it is moved to Caemlyn with the invasion in mind, instead of risking it in the Black Tower.

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Whether the Dreamspike is still active or not is irrelevant to the outcome at the BT.

Even if Taim and his cronies are cleaned out, there's still no one there that could do anything about the Dreamspike.

Hell, it could have and prolly already has happened days ago according to everyone else's timeline.

Nothing changes with the Dreamspike until most likely Perrin (or an outside chance, Egwene) does something about it OR Slayer moves it.

Edited by Finnssss
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Whether it's still active might be irrelevant, but the time of its activation is not. And again, none of it suggests that my comment doesn't make sense, because none of it precludes the involvement of the main characters. You think it might be all over with by then. Fine; I disagree. But there's no cause to suggest that it must be over with by then.

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Whether it's still active might be irrelevant, but the time of its activation is not. And again, none of it suggests that my comment doesn't make sense, because none of it precludes the involvement of the main characters. You think it might be all over with by then. Fine; I disagree. But there's no cause to suggest that it must be over with by then.

 

Easy, my last post wasn't directed at you or your post. I should have quoted Barid's post, that's what it was in reference to here....

 

The Black Tower situation may not be resolved. The Dreamspike is still active 1 day before Merrilor, Rand sends Naeff to the BT before going to meet the Borderlanders. Perrin is about to check on the Black Tower that night.

 

All the Black Tower needs is to catch up, this does not mean that Taim is defeated and the Black Tower is brought to the Light.

Even if this does happen, it doesn't mean the destruction of the Dreamspike.

Indeed, it could be that it is moved to Caemlyn with the invasion in mind, instead of risking it in the Black Tower.

 

 

 

 

 

I already agreed with most of your premise in my edit above just as you were posting your previous response.

However, aside from someone like Perrin doing something about the Dreamspike, there is no need for or really, because of the timeline issues, any possibility that any other major characters to be involved with the battle for the BT.

We already have Androl, Pevara and prolly Logain there to take up the fight.

Edited by Finnssss
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Your post still says that my first point (specifically) doesn't make sense. You've yet to provide a reason why it doesn't make sense, other than your idea that the Black Tower plotline should be resolved before Mat arrives at Merrilor, which is unsupported.

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Your post still says that my first point (specifically) doesn't make sense. You've yet to provide a reason why it doesn't make sense, other than your idea that the Black Tower plotline should be resolved before Mat arrives at Merrilor, which is unsupported.

 

You mean besides the fact that BS stated that the BT timeline has to be and will be cleaned up before moving on to any other arcs?

That he would of perfered to include the BT segment in ToM so everything was up to date but couldn't fit it in.

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Actually, he has never said that the Black Tower plotline will be resolved.

 

INTERVIEW: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

ADAM DOWARD (6 JANUARY 2011)

Please tell me all the Black Tower stuff will finally be resolved in A Memory of Light?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (6 JANUARY 2011)

The things I didn't get into Towers of Midnight with the Black Tower should be in A Memory of Light.

 

This doesn't confirm anything. He has only said that the stuff that was supposed to be in ToM will be in aMoL. There is nothing to say that what was meant to be in ToM resolved the issue. The Black Tower plot may be resolved later on in the story, or off screen. (It has been a possibility)

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 26th, 2010

Dragonmount Interview with Brandon Sanderson by Luckers

 

LUCKERS

 

You spoke during the signing tour of perhaps having some material of Pevara being awesome on your website—is that still on the table? If it is, would it be pre- or post-Towers of Midnight?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

That suggestion came about because I wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to fit it in. In the end I decided to get three or four chapters of it into Towers of Midnight. So it is there. I haven’t yet decided whether the rest of that story will happen on screen in A Memory of Light or whether it will have to happen off screen. The outline is all there, but I’m still not sure what I’ll have time for and what will work with the pacing.

 

This is in reference to Pevera's story. Now if the main characters get involved in the Black Tower plot, it would not be included in Pevera's story, it would be from Rand, Perrin or whoever goes there.

 

 

I found nowhere where it said that the Black Tower issue was resolved. Have a look. http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

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I think it's pretty clear that the situation there wasn't resolved until the day before FoM. After all, it wouldn't have taken Naeff that long to ride in, find Androl and Pevara celebrating around the corpses of Taim's conies, then report back (Dreamspike or no). If he hasn't, that means not all is well there. Or, at least, it wasn't when he arrived. If I had to guess, I'd say the grand stand would coincide with Perrin and Slayer's battle, the same way it happened in the White Tower.

 

BTW that meas that the Trollocs would most likely only get a few hours in Caemlyn before Gateways are working again (as you'll recall, Brandon confirmed that the Dreamspike's region of effect could be modified), at the longest.

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I think it's pretty clear that the situation there wasn't resolved until the day before FoM. After all, it wouldn't have taken Naeff that long to ride in, find Androl and Pevara celebrating around the corpses of Taim's conies, then report back (Dreamspike or no). If he hasn't, that means not all is well there. Or, at least, it wasn't when he arrived. If I had to guess, I'd say the grand stand would coincide with Perrin and Slayer's battle, the same way it happened in the White Tower.

 

BTW that meas that the Trollocs would most likely only get a few hours in Caemlyn before Gateways are working again (as you'll recall, Brandon confirmed that the Dreamspike's region of effect could be modified), at the longest.

 

I agree for the most part, except the end about Caemlyn.

 

Just because the Black Tower situation may be resolved with Perrin's battle, it does not necessarily mean that the Dreamspike is destroyed, it could just be moved to Caemlyn when the Shadow decides the Black Tower is lost.

 

Of course there is a distinct possibility that the Dreamspike will be destroyed to achieve this victory, but it is not certain. It could be as simple as Perrin slaying Slayer, and Moridin pops up for a minute to grab the Dreamspike and move it. Who knows?

 

Or the battle may not even be on this day. I don't think that Perrin would go straight into a fight with Slayer so soon, the night before FoM. He is concerned foremost about the meeting, and keeping it peaceful.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Actually, he has never said that the Black Tower plotline will be resolved.

 

INTERVIEW: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

ADAM DOWARD (6 JANUARY 2011)

Please tell me all the Black Tower stuff will finally be resolved in A Memory of Light?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (6 JANUARY 2011)

The things I didn't get into Towers of Midnight with the Black Tower should be in A Memory of Light.

 

This doesn't confirm anything. He has only said that the stuff that was supposed to be in ToM will be in aMoL. There is nothing to say that what was meant to be in ToM resolved the issue. The Black Tower plot may be resolved later on in the story, or off screen. (It has been a possibility)

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 26th, 2010

Dragonmount Interview with Brandon Sanderson by Luckers

 

LUCKERS

 

You spoke during the signing tour of perhaps having some material of Pevara being awesome on your website—is that still on the table? If it is, would it be pre- or post-Towers of Midnight?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

That suggestion came about because I wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to fit it in. In the end I decided to get three or four chapters of it into Towers of Midnight. So it is there. I haven’t yet decided whether the rest of that story will happen on screen in A Memory of Light or whether it will have to happen off screen. The outline is all there, but I’m still not sure what I’ll have time for and what will work with the pacing.

 

This is in reference to Pevera's story. Now if the main characters get involved in the Black Tower plot, it would not be included in Pevera's story, it would be from Rand, Perrin or whoever goes there.

 

 

I found nowhere where it said that the Black Tower issue was resolved. Have a look. http://www.theorylan...ntvsresults.php

 

 

Just because it's not in that database, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

It has been referenced numerous times, both the BT being a week or two behind, that he had to catch them up before moving to any other arcs and that he would of liked to have had the BT arc cleaned up by the end of ToM but didn't have the room for it.

 

I'll do a hardcore search for it after work. I do know it was around the time that BS started the first draft, I'm thinking last summerish.

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Yes, but what makes you think that "catching up the timelines" involves concluding the conflict? Obviously, Perrin set out to explore the BT in TAR the night before the meeting (the same night of Rand's dream and the raid on Caemlyn, and judging from Olver's unexpected victory, it's the same night that Mat, Thom and Moiraine escaped the ToG), and Naeff hasn't yet returned from his mission.

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I find the suggestion that Taim will be "taken care of" in the early chapters of aMoL to be ludicrous. Pevara and Androl can at best escape (with Naeff?). None of them has the strength to take on Taim yet.

 

Now... about Caemlyn. Depending on the Dreamspike's coverage, we may or may not get some massive evacuation of the people from the palace by the Kin. What I think <i>will</i> happen is that in the early stages of battle, when the Dreamspike isn't yet active, the Kin will open Gateways for the Band to enter the Royal Palace, and probably the sotrage place of the cannons. At that point, I expect a heroic last defense by the band, and the Kin getting a baptism by fire and entering the fray fighting hard. They'll probably first defend the inner city (the Waygate is in the Outer City), evacuating as many people into it as possible, but eventually I think the Royal Palace itself will be the last standing bastion. The city itself will be largely destroyed, and the Band will have a heroic end, like its namesake.

 

Also, I really don't think Perrin's fight with Slayer has anything to do with BT/Caemlyn. Slayer failed with a Dreamspike. They will hardly use just him again! I suspect we may see Moghedein and maybe Cyndane in action there, and more than just one Dreamwalker will be needed to clear out this Dreamspike.

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There was a small foreshadowing by Rand that Taim may have to wait till after Tarmon Gaidin. So, the eradication of Taim's faction is not a foregone conclusion. If there is battle in the BT, then a few dreadlords will escape and go up north to continue their fight against the Light. The BT situation might be resolved; but Taim and a few might live through it.

 

As to Grady having problems making a gateway for Mat, he knows about a dreamspike and how it works. He might ride to another location and still be able to make a gateway. I think Mat will wait a few days before moving anywhere. (And we might get a nice surprise if Moiraine somehow manages to make a gateway herself.)

 

Mat leaving the ToG and traveling to Ebou Dar would take him out of Tarmon Gaidin. He needs too much time to go there without Traveling.

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There was a small foreshadowing by Rand that Taim may have to wait till after Tarmon Gaidin.

 

1. Verin said that in KOD. She's probably wong.

 

2. It's Tarmon Gai'don. Gaidin=Warder. Just saying.

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what im really curious about is how androl actually plays a role in all of this. a guy who in the power is fairly insignificant except in making gateways being in an area that doesnt allow you to travel out of it. i feel like there has to be more to his gateways than snipping leather, so how will that play out? will he find a way around the dreamspike? or some other thing that he will be able to pull off. if i were him i think i would open up a gateway right in the middle of all the bad guys (including taim) hearts, and let em bleed out, but thats just me lol but ya a guy with that kind of talent and it not really serving a purpose right now, has got to serve some kind of purpose later, what will it be?

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It's pretty much got to be gateways. The running assumption is that his incredible talent, while not sufficient on its own, will be sufficient with a mixed-gender circle. Androl apparently has that same thought, which is why he approached Pevara.

 

Interestingly, his description of trying to make a gateway form is very similar to Elayne's description of trying to unweave a gateway, in a way:

 

The weaves came together. He didn't notice any of the difficulty that Emarin had mentioned. However, when the familiar slash of light should have come, the weave began to unravel instead. Androl tried to hold to it, pulling it together. For a moment, it looked like that would work. Then the threads slid from his grip, evaporating. The gateway never formed.

 

The threads slid from his grip, which suggests that he might be able to get it right with some practice, and with some more strength in the Power.

 

Also something to consider is another long-forgotten yet long-running plot conflict: Aviendha's trouble with gateways. She's never been able to weave one properly since she can't remember how she did it that one time. I'm assuming she'll remember at some point in AMOL, and that it will involve Rand.

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agreed with avi, maybe since she just threw out the gateway to begin with she has a block on them, kinda like nyn's thing with anger from before.. perhaps some kind of panic moment will happen, maybe she will sense some trouble with rand and just instinctively go to him...and i forgot that lil part with androl, sure sign that he will probably figure out a way to get by the dreamspike, which to me kind of implies that the dreamspike will be staying at the BT till its resolved, that or all the good guys will take off, maybe to come back after finding logain or rand

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Watch, it'll go down like sssoo *adjusts wild speculation goggles:

 

Mat, Mo & Thom, return to the 'burbs of Caemlyn via predetermined "send a gateway every day at such and such time." or OR, one of Mo's questions involves something to do with knowing ways with which to wield the power.

 

Anyway, they get there, place is trashed, yadda yadda yadda, the Band's in shambles, maybe Talmane's kicked the bucket... Considering the turmoil bound to be afoot every-which-where, where could Mat go to enlist the aid of a professional force that on some level owes him allegience. Thus, heeyy isn't Precious hold up in Ebou Dar, Empress and all that? Aren't I Prince of the Ravens (which may or may not, with eight bucks, get him a six pack)?

 

Disregard the ramble factor in all this, but theres a couple factors in play. We know that Mat's headed to Ebou Dar, but we also know he's more than likely going to bear witness to how jacked up Caemlyn is. That being said, I don't really see Mat as the type that'd run off to Rand for help, when he's perfectly capable of handling the situation - He doesn't need Rand or anyone else to tell him to go to Ebou Dar to enlist Seanchan aid, he's married to their Empress & I'm willing to bet it's something that'll come to his mind.

 

Thhhus, we'll see the Seanchan hit Trolloc infested Caemlyn in force, and it will also set up them, the Seanchan, being there (geographically in the neighborhood) for the dreamt scenario of Egwene & the Seanchan woman. Good sentiments will be spread for an alliance as Elayne will be all caloo calley huzzah! on account of aid, albeit from a source she's, rightfully, warry of.

 

Don't ask me how the actual battle will go down, but you gotta figure you'd have Elayne's forces hold up behind the palace walls, and mayhap it'll be Mat & Co. will hammer the Trolls against the walls from the new city.

 

And the Seanchan will be there in order to deliver such deeds, because they now know how to Travel. Mat & Co. will be able to convice For(tuan)a to help on emotional appeal, maybe some Mo Finn-brand knowledge, Thom waggling his 'stache, Setalle Anan wanted to go back to Ebou Dar so sure, why not her too...AND the dagger in the heart that seals the deal will beeeee, dead Olver.

 

 

*picks nose, flicks booger

 

Something like that? :bela:

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