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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Tel'aran'rhiod and the mechanics of reality.


fionwe1987
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I'm posting here something that I originally planned as a response to a thread on Rand's death in Theoryland. While a lot of this is probably incoherent...thoughts?

 

It is in the context of "the sum of all souls" that I find TAR interesting. TAR is the sum of all the worlds, and it seems like a sort of collective unconscious. It surrounds all the worlds, is the "third constant" apart from the DO and the Creator, and it exists "between the threads of the Pattern".

It is the resting place of the Heroes (who are the course correctors of the Pattern when it strays).

 

More importantly, TAR is the place where humans can create. They cannot create a soul, but as we saw with Egwene's TAR-Bela, what is created there can have very real characteristics. But most importantly, a powerful Dreamwalker can rope in a soul from the "Dream pool" and take it into a folding of TAR were she/he has ultimate control.

 

What if that is what the Creator is doing? What if "reality" is but a folding of TAR, one which is maintained by the Creator's own will. Souls that are "alive" are roped into this fold, souls that are dead return to a "soul pool" which is exactly what the "dream pool" looks like.

 

This would explain several things. Why the Aiel say, "life is a dream", for one. For another, Asmodean calls the Skimming space the "dream of a dream", which also fits very neatly with this.

 

The Dark One also seems to have TAR levels of control over the Blight and Shayol Ghul. And the Blight has no reflection in TAR because it is "another world". What if the Dark One's corruption is basically his Power altering the rules the Creator has imposed on the fold of TAR that is "reality"?

 

This idea would also explain why the Wise Ones consider it so wrong to enter TAR in the flesh. Doing so, your entire soul has left "reality". In a way, you are "dead", and out of the reach of the Pattern's influence.

 

It would also explain why, when Rand and crew were stuck for four months in the Portal Worlds, playing out the variations, Egwene had a feeling that Rand wasn't "there". I think she, like Ishamael and Lanfear, can track ta'veren, and she was unable to feel Rand in the Pattern because he had side-stepped it for a time.

 

This can also give a very good explanation for how Rand is able to hold back the Dark One's touch, and why the clouds part around him. We have a very good clue what is going on:

 

He gathered his will. Those scents would vanish. They did, replaced with the scents of

summer. Grass, hedgehogs, beetles, moss, mice, blue-winged doves, purple finches.

They appeared, bursting to life in a circle around him.

He gritted his teeth. The reality spread from him like a wave, blackness fading from the

plants. Above him, the clouds undulated, then parted. Sunlight streamed down. The

thunder calmed.

 

What Perrin tried to do in TAR, Rand is able to in reality, since the moment he became one with his Champion persona. I think that is the ability the Creator grants his Champion, and while Rand may be unconscious of the mechanism of it, I think this is what he's doing, and this is why apples can grow in the matter of seconds from lifeless trees!

 

Basically, I think life and reality as the characters know it is a dream. It is a Dream maintained by the Creator. The Horn of Valere can bring TAR in contact with this (and any other) reality, and that is how Rand, in the end, will be able to fight the DO and Seal him away.

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Good theory. It reminds me of an idea I had a while ago. We know from Perrin POV that when Rand had his epiphany on dragonmount, he was also in TAR. I think that maybe he now exist simultansely there and in the real world, which is why the taint no longer affect him and why he can channel a lot more of the OP than ordinary channelers. The limitation of the flesh no longer concern him because he has a limitless dream body supporting him

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Nice theory. Here are some quotes that are relevant to the theory.

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Michael Martin (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

INTERVIEW: May 12th, 2010

 

JordanCon: Interview with Alan Romanczuk by Richard Fife (Verbatim)

 

One thing that strikes me is people's perception of the Wheel of Time. The Wheel of Time is just a structural device: it has seven spokes which represent the seven Ages.The Wheel turns; people forget about the previous Age and a new Age is entered. It goes around seven times and it starts again from square one. Very similar patterns of events occur in each Age, but they are changed, just as two people can have very similar personalities but still be very different people in many other respects. The same way with the different Ages.

 

 

So the Wheel does not have a specific purpose. It does not have a motivation. It is not a conscious being. The Wheel is just there, operating as an organizing principle of the world. Jim played down the religious aspects of all this. There is a creator, but there is not even a notion that the creator is God. The creator, of course, is God, but it is the creator. And the creator is not given much of a personality in these books. The creator is a stand-back kind of entity, less so than the Dark One, which opposes thecreator and everything the creator has created, which is mankind.

 

.

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009

Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch

 

Robert Jordan said that Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds

 

INTERVIEW: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

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I'm posting here something that I originally planned as a response to a thread on Rand's death in Theoryland. While a lot of this is probably incoherent...thoughts?

 

It is in the context of "the sum of all souls" that I find TAR interesting. TAR is the sum of all the worlds, and it seems like a sort of collective unconscious. It surrounds all the worlds, is the "third constant" apart from the DO and the Creator, and it exists "between the threads of the Pattern".

It is the resting place of the Heroes (who are the course correctors of the Pattern when it strays).

 

More importantly, TAR is the place where humans can create. They cannot create a soul, but as we saw with Egwene's TAR-Bela, what is created there can have very real characteristics. But most importantly, a powerful Dreamwalker can rope in a soul from the "Dream pool" and take it into a folding of TAR were she/he has ultimate control.

 

What if that is what the Creator is doing? What if "reality" is but a folding of TAR, one which is maintained by the Creator's own will. Souls that are "alive" are roped into this fold, souls that are dead return to a "soul pool" which is exactly what the "dream pool" looks like.

 

This would explain several things. Why the Aiel say, "life is a dream", for one. For another, Asmodean calls the Skimming space the "dream of a dream", which also fits very neatly with this.

 

The Dark One also seems to have TAR levels of control over the Blight and Shayol Ghul. And the Blight has no reflection in TAR because it is "another world". What if the Dark One's corruption is basically his Power altering the rules the Creator has imposed on the fold of TAR that is "reality"?

 

This idea would also explain why the Wise Ones consider it so wrong to enter TAR in the flesh. Doing so, your entire soul has left "reality". In a way, you are "dead", and out of the reach of the Pattern's influence.

 

It would also explain why, when Rand and crew were stuck for four months in the Portal Worlds, playing out the variations, Egwene had a feeling that Rand wasn't "there". I think she, like Ishamael and Lanfear, can track ta'veren, and she was unable to feel Rand in the Pattern because he had side-stepped it for a time.

 

This can also give a very good explanation for how Rand is able to hold back the Dark One's touch, and why the clouds part around him. We have a very good clue what is going on:

 

He gathered his will. Those scents would vanish. They did, replaced with the scents of

summer. Grass, hedgehogs, beetles, moss, mice, blue-winged doves, purple finches.

They appeared, bursting to life in a circle around him.

He gritted his teeth. The reality spread from him like a wave, blackness fading from the

plants. Above him, the clouds undulated, then parted. Sunlight streamed down. The

thunder calmed.

 

What Perrin tried to do in TAR, Rand is able to in reality, since the moment he became one with his Champion persona. I think that is the ability the Creator grants his Champion, and while Rand may be unconscious of the mechanism of it, I think this is what he's doing, and this is why apples can grow in the matter of seconds from lifeless trees!

 

Basically, I think life and reality as the characters know it is a dream. It is a Dream maintained by the Creator. The Horn of Valere can bring TAR in contact with this (and any other) reality, and that is how Rand, in the end, will be able to fight the DO and Seal him away.

 

Hello :D Well this same thing was around my mind lately and now that i read it from someone else i feel so excited about it. I would like to add my own thoughts to this theory. Let me know what you think about it.

 

Ok, first of all, TAR is the REAL world as fionwe states. This is so logical once you think about it. Why would TAR be the third constant if it was only another world? Why wouldn`t be a TAR for each world? Well, the answer is because TAR is the real world and the "Waking World" (hope thats correct, in spanish its "Mundo de Vigilia") is the dream. ALL the Waking Worlds are part of the dream of the Creator. This explains why if someone dies in the WW his soul returns to TAR waiting to be woven in the Pattern again, but when you die in TAR it's the ultimate death. It also explains why you cannot affect TAR physicaly (destroy things and such), with the exception of Balefire; how would a dream, dreaming in his own dream that he is outside the dream, affect at all reality? I'm not even sure Balefire can destroy something permanently in TAR (when Rand destroys Elayne's palace he is INSIDE TAR, all of him). Along with all the reasons fionwe already said (Amayares also say life is a dream, like the Aiel). And i wanted to point out that the DO cant bring back someone destroyed with balefire; maybe because thats a death in TAR, the real world?

 

Have this in mind, i think in RJ's work moral is SO important.

 

But my theory goes beyond that.

What if the Creator and the DO doesnt exist at all? Not like we were thinking up until now. What if all the souls that inhabit TAR are the Creator themselves? Where there is soul, there is self-awarness, there is concience. What if our own souls screamed and dreamt of life? Why can't the Creator influence the WW, why wouldn't he let us hear his voice? Because WE are the creator (or if you prefer, he is our own dream, our own creation), our very souls are, and the whole Randland is the very human nature (note Rand->Kingfisher). Creator cant influence because he's us. Creator can't talk to us because he represents the desire to live, he represent the good and pure that we all have in our hearts, a benebolence we all assume of everyone else. When i see someone walking on the street, i assume he's a good person, i think we all do, and even if you dont, i think RJ screams with this his believe that humanity is good by nature. He cannot talk because he is assumed as part of everyone. The DO can because he is that whispering voice we all have that tries to make us do things we know are wrong. "You dont have to help him at all", "dont do that, do it later", "dont study, better sit and play some games"....xD

I think its important here that we take some time to think about Rand, Perrin and Mat. RJ doesnt do anything without reason. Why make de DR an innocent child born in an innocent village? I think this is REALLY important. Our main characters start their journey thinking life is good, thinking people is good. Its only during that journey that they begin to realize the darkness of the world.

So, WE are the Creator, and following the dualistic theme RJ loves, there's no light without shadow. There's no heart with no taint. THAT is the DO, the dark side of all of us.

 

"In popular Islamic culture, "Shaytan" (Arabic: شيطان‎, from Hebrew: שָׂטָן‎‎, whence "Satan") is often simply translated as "The Devil". The primary characteristic of the Devil, is that he has no power other than the power to cast evil suggestions into the heart of men. In Islaminc theology, Shaytan and his minions are "whisperers", who whisper into the hearts of men and women, urging them to commit sin. This is where the desire to sin comes from, according to Islam."

 

I think the creation of the WW was abruptly in some point between a far future from aMoL and the end of AoL. Here comes the heavier moral charge. The AoL was the perfect world, where your sterngth, intelligence and power (OP) didnt mean a thing, didnt make you better than anyone else. Your social strata and popular acknowledgement depended on HOW you used that abilities to make the world a better place. It was a peaceful world.

 

But what happens when humanity becomes arrogant? They thought they had mastered the OP to its limits and they wanted more power. That's why they begun to search for another source, and they found it. Humanity wanted more power so the thrilling of the Bore happend, opening the world to an evil it had never met, sin. And why wasn't the DO sealed or destroyed in that very moment? Because some people were more arrogant than others, and were more power-thirsty too. Some people wanted to live forever and rule above all the others. And so, the DO asolated the world, when the heart of men failed.

 

When Rand has his epiphany, he asks "Why do you [Creator] make us live once and once again all of this?" And his answer "Because each time is another opportunity to love". Im not quoting from the book, its by heart.

 

And so the Wheel of Time turns and ages come and go, because even if the dark side we all have inside will eventually reach the world, reach us, it only means that we have the opportunity to love like we had never loved before, because in the end humanity is good, and good will prevail. The DO will never win, but can't disappear either because its part of us (we can only seal that evilness out of our hearts), and its only when that part seems to be winning the hand when we can realize our own nature and find the peace again. Its just as how RJ describes Saidin. The struggling for life makes it even more precious and sweet.

As Rand accepts hei is the DR full-hearted like never before, as he realizes that what he cannot allow is the dark side of him to take controll, he becames himself truly for the first time.

 

It is stated in tWoT that even if Rand wins the LB in his dark-mode, the world is condemned. I think this means that as important as fighting the LB is fighting the darkness inside, and only if everyone does this will the DO get out of WW again. Min's viewing of light sparks and darkness reflects that.

 

EDIT: Another support to my theory I forgot to mention: Aridhol, or Shadar Logoth. We all know what happened in SL, but what consecuences did it have? I think the transformation of Aridhol into SL was truly important to understanding this "dream of a dream" theory. Here's my thought: In SL whats good in all of us, as part of us, died. In SL it turned all the way around (dont know if thats the correct expression). In SL the DO (the darkness and evilness in our heart) became the Creator, it became the part of us wich is our true nature, that part that we assume of others. Its said several times that SL had an evilness different than the DO but not less dangerous. It is said that it is contagious too. Only the Creator's power is comparable to that of the DO, and vice versa. What Rand did was destroy the taint, which is the DO power, confronting it with an equivalent, equal and yet opposite power, the power of a different DO we could say, a DO that is more and the same as the one they are fighting. Why would Saidin "vanish" or "disappear" when touching SL? Dont know the exact words used in the book. Because this two different evilness destroy each other, the same as in his wound. But we also know that only the Creator can destroy the DO (and i think the taint can be considered as part of the DO, as the TP is part of him too). Sorry for not making it clearer, but words come to me with difficultie. So in the end he put Saidar between SL and Saidin so that the Saidin wouldn't vanish as it approched the city. Thanks to that coat of Saidar he accumulated a great amount of Saidin, maybe nearly as much as it could be channeled at one time, and then released Saidar so that SL and that great amount of Saidin's taint annihilated one another. One power against an equal power yet not the same.

 

PD: Im spanish and im so sorry i can't get this clearer than it is. Hope you like it and hope you dont have problems understanding it.

PD2: I dont think i have exposed the theory at all its extent but i was so excited while writting it, maybe i'll edit later.

Edited by Naggash
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