Egwene Appreciation Thread

[David Selig]

I wonder why Rand thinks he can blackmail everyone into agreeing to the Dragon's Peace. What else can he do if people call his bluff?He holds no cards there. Same as Egwene trying to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

But who would dare to call his bluff and risk literally the end of the world? And most monarchs at this point are reasonable persons who owe a lot to Rand, if they can get a long term peace deal, they are likely to agree anyway even without a threat. Especially if the Seanchan are included in it.

[XXX]

I wonder why Rand thinks he can blackmail everyone into agreeing to the Dragon's Peace. What else can he do if people call his bluff?He holds no cards there. Same as Egwene trying to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

But who would dare to call his bluff and risk literally the end of the world? And most monarchs at this point are reasonable persons who owe a lot to Rand, if they can get a long term peace deal, they are likely to agree anyway even without a threat. Especially if the Seanchan are included in it.

 

Why would a monarch think that the DR will not go to do what he is destined to do for the sake of a silly peace accord? It is an empty bluff.

[Suttree]

Except Egwene's Dream indicates there's be a Seanchan woman with her, and other women, confronting Rand.

 

What dream is that I only a remember a dream of a seachan woman saving Egwene with the tower about to collapse. What part of it is confronting Rand?

 

TDR Ch. 48

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

[1Brotherbill]

the bore was open for many many years in the AoL without catastrophic effects.

How can you possibly know this? The 100 years before the War of the Power was known as the Collapse, when the DO's presence was enough to cause the degradation of even as advanced a society as the AoLs. How well can the Third Age stand it?

 

Didn't Rand have two or three past lives dealing with the DO's prison being opened up? Or was it just one. Either or it seems that when the prison was initially opened the Dark One didn't pop out like a Jack In The Box. So breaking the remaining seals isn't going to cause the world to fall apart.

There is going to be some interesting stuff going on when that last seal is broken however.

[wookiebear]

the bore was open for many many years in the AoL without catastrophic effects.

How can you possibly know this? The 100 years before the War of the Power was known as the Collapse, when the DO's presence was enough to cause the degradation of even as advanced a society as the AoLs. How well can the Third Age stand it?

 

Didn't Rand have two or three past lives dealing with the DO's prison being opened up? Or was it just one. Either or it seems that when the prison was initially opened the Dark One didn't pop out like a Jack In The Box. So breaking the remaining seals isn't going to cause the world to fall apart.

There is going to be some interesting stuff going on when that last seal is broken however.

 

Depending on how you read it the Dragon has had innumerable lives in conflict with the Dark One. It is implied that even if the seals were broken it is still an opening, wider, but not wide enough for the DO to break free into the world.

 

I think the reaction of Egwene and many others to the thought of breaking the seals is one of fear of the unknown, in that if it is this bad now it will be so much worse when all seals are broken. The only living beings with memories of what it was like with the bore unsealed are either the remaining Foresaken or the Dragon Reborn. So all those with memory of the bore being open seem to want the seals broken, for various reasons of course, but still I can see why that might make on nervous, don'tcha think

 

With the history of madness for male channelers it is probably creating a bias in the thoughts of all who hear that the greatest (and thereby craziest) male channeler of all wants to, in their minds, set free the greatest evil of all. Looking at it from that perspective I can see why you might be a little nervous

[muddasssir]

I do not think Rand needs anyone to actually break the seals. And he is going to break them before he goes to SG because in ToM he explains that though there is a bit more of risk with the DO not constrained they will have to take it. So it stands to reason that he is not going to do both at the same time.

Well, if you're right, Rand is plain insane:

 

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

 

He's going to break the Seals at SG. Which means he needs way more than two women/80 reluctant women with him.

The seals are going to be broken end of story nothing Egwene or anyone else can do about it. So the question is who does Rand need to reseal the bore. He needs atleast 2 females to wield callandor if that is the way to go. He has Ny who has promised to come, Alivia the strongest woman on the side of the light, 80 bonded/sworn AS,Aiel WO's and Sea Folk windfinders. Quite a choice so it is not like Egwene can withhold support as a leverage to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

After the seals are broken it is not like the WT can pick up their ball and go home anyway. The Trollocs are coming so it is fight or be cooked!!

Yeah, because 80 reluctant Aes Sedai is what Rand wants when he goes to break the Seals! And not even Nynaeve has promised to go with him to SG to do that.

i mean where did 80 reluctant women came in from? all the Aes Sedai who are following Rand our sworn to serve him and then there is our lovely CAD and her companions. they are not beholden to any Amyrilin seat. Some one mentioned that wise ones agreed with eggy. But if my memory serves me right they just agreed to discuss it and never said yay or nay to Eggy. I am pretty sure about that but if someone can quote, it will be nice. It all boils down to he will have female channelers and they will not be reluctant in the least. plus whatever made you think that Aiel are going to side with white tower against Caracarn?

[fionwe1987]

i mean where did 80 reluctant women came in from?

From not two books ago, when Rand rightly said that the sworn sisters followed the letter of their oaths, but it wasn't like they were slavishly devoted to following his will. Exactly what makes you believe they will be glad to oppose the will of the Amyrlin Seat?

all the Aes Sedai who are following Rand our sworn to serve him and then there is our lovely CAD and her companions. they are not beholden to any Amyrilin seat.

Every Aes Sedai is beholden to the Amyrlin. Cads and her group sat out when there were two Amyrlin's bickering. That's one thing. Opposing the Amyrlin of a united Tower is another. I'm not saying some of them won't do it, if it comes down to it, but there is no guarantee! Especially not when the Amyrlin is making sense.

Some one mentioned that wise ones agreed with eggy. But if my memory serves me right they just agreed to discuss it and never said yay or nay to Eggy.

They were troubled by Rand's plan, and said they would speak with him. However that conversation went, the Aiel bought their army to Merrilor at Egwene's request...

 

I am pretty sure about that but if someone can quote, it will be nice. It all boils down to he will have female channelers and they will not be reluctant in the least. plus whatever made you think that Aiel are going to side with white tower against Caracarn?

Not the Tower. Egwene. They trust her, they like her, they respect her. Coming to side with her is not siding with the Tower over the Car'a'carn!

[Maleshub]

Never expected to agree with Mudda in an Egwene discussion, especially when the other side of the debate with him is Fionwe! But here goes

 

 

From not two books ago, when Rand rightly said that the sworn sisters followed the letter of their oaths, but it wasn't like they were slavishly devoted to following his will. Exactly what makes you believe they will be glad to oppose the will of the Amyrlin Seat?

 

But we know that the oath of featly sworn by Aes Sedai who aren't black and are still bound by the 3 oaths supersede all other oaths. Even Sashelle, who is no longer bound by the 3 oaths sent a letter to the Highest of the Red Ajah stating that she will serve Rand till TG; and then submit herself to the will of the Ajah.

 

In brief, they will obey Rand over Egwene without difficulty.

 

Every Aes Sedai is beholden to the Amyrlin. Cads and her group sat out when there were two Amyrlin's bickering. That's one thing. Opposing the Amyrlin of a united Tower is another. I'm not saying some of them won't do it, if it comes down to it, but there is no guarantee! Especially not when the Amyrlin is making sense.

 

Beholden as in indebted or feeling the need to obey.

 

Was Moiraine beholden to the Amyrlin Seat? Was Siuan Sanche, as Amyrlin, motivated by her life's purpose, helping the Dragon, or by her official duty?

 

In any case, Cads reputation is to oppose an Amyrlin of a united Tower. Isn't she rumored to have paddled the bottom of an Amyrlin who tried to force her to her will?

 

Cads is her own mistress. She has thrown her lot with Rand; and will be on his side in Merrilor. And her group of Aes Sedai will follow her lead. They have more loyalty to her than to Egwene.

 

They were troubled by Rand's plan, and said they would speak with him. However that conversation went, the Aiel bought their army to Merrilor at Egwene's request...

 

This is the first time I read that the Aiel came to Merrilor on Egwene's request. The fact is that the Aiel PoV vis-à-vis Rand is 2-3 weeks behind the date of the Merrilor conference. So, we cannot be sure that their presence is Egwene's doing. The Borderlanders are there and so is Perrin; but they're Rand's to the last man/woman.

 

But regardless, the Aiel are the People of the Dragon; and the follow Rand, the Car'a'carn. The Dragon Reborn is a "wetlander" thing; and so is the Amyrlin Seat. They won't hesitate in choosing the Car'a'carn over the Dragon Reborn or Amyrlin Seat. And they know that saving a remnant of a remnant is tied to Rand, not Egwene.

 

Not the Tower. Egwene. They trust her, they like her, they respect her. Coming to side with her is not siding with the Tower over the Car'a'carn!

 

Whatever respect they have for Egwene does not take precedence over their destiny. She's a good apprentice whom they've taught well. But she isn't even a Wise One and has absolutely no authority or say over the Aiel. The Aiel are Rand's. It runs in their blood. Egwene will be disappointed if she thinks the Aiel will follow her over Rand.

[fionwe1987]

Never expected to agree with Mudda in an Egwene discussion, especially when the other side of the debate with him is Fionwe! But here goes

I don't quite think you understand my position. Which might explain the confusing turn of events.

 

But we know that the oath of featly sworn by Aes Sedai who aren't black and are still bound by the 3 oaths supersede all other oaths. Even Sashelle, who is no longer bound by the 3 oaths sent a letter to the Highest of the Red Ajah stating that she will serve Rand till TG; and then submit herself to the will of the Ajah.

I never said they won't obey. I said they will obey reluctantly. If you think they're not going to feel conflicted about overriding the Amyrlin's authority, think again.

 

In brief, they will obey Rand over Egwene without difficulty.

If he forces them to by ordering them? Sure. But will he want such people with him?

Beholden as in indebted or feeling the need to obey.

Feeling the need to obey. No Aes Sedai disobeys the Amyrlin easily. Not even Cadsuane, as RJ's notes show.

 

Was Moiraine beholden to the Amyrlin Seat?

She wasn't? Rather than openly defy Seirin, she ran away. And se certainly respected Siuan. You seem to be thinking that my position is that all Aes Sedai are mindless slaves of the Amyrlin. I'm saying that even if they disagree with her, they don't oppose an Amyrlin easily.

Was Siuan Sanche, as Amyrlin, motivated by her life's purpose, helping the Dragon, or by her official duty?

What makes you think there was a conflict? Siuan's thoughts in tGS and ToM make it clear that she thought her purpose as Amyrlin was to prepar the world for the DR. She didn't seem to see a difference between the two.

In any case, Cads reputation is to oppose an Amyrlin of a united Tower. Isn't she rumored to have paddled the bottom of an Amyrlin who tried to force her to her will?

No. The fact is that she kidnapped Myriam Copan into forced "penance", where she even turned her upside down. This was done to make Myriam from a weak Amyrlin to a strong one!

 

It wasn’t; it was the method Cadsuane used to turn Myriam Copan from a weak Amyrlin to a strong one in 758 NE. Myriam was thought to have gone on a two-month retreat by herself, but she had, in fact, been all but kidnaped by Cadsuane. Turning Myriam around involved, among other things, turning her upside down at least once. Although Myriam certainly had reason to keep the events of those two months secret (and was able to make a statement which seemed to deny that Cadsuane had assaulted her), it is the basis of the tale that Cadsuane once physically assaulted an Amyrlin.

 

Note that as Cadsuane stood Aes Sedai custom and law on its head, what she aimed for was to 1)Make the Amyrlin stronger 2)Do this secretly so that she won't publicly lose face.

Cads is her own mistress. She has thrown her lot with Rand; and will be on his side in Merrilor. And her group of Aes Sedai will follow her lead. They have more loyalty to her than to Egwene.

There's no guarantee. Once before, Cadsuane has shown herself to be completely against defying an Amyrlin, even if she personally can't stand the Amyrlin:

Cadsuane is alleged to have once single-handedly stopped a coup in the White Tower. This did happen, though no one seems to know or agree on when. The true story: Cadsuane and Sereille Bagand did not get on with each other. In fact, they could not stand one another. Each was the sort of woman who dominated a room—or for that matter, a city!—by simply entering, and they struck sparks at every meeting. Despite her dislike for Sereille, though, Cadsuane uncovered a plot to overthrow Sereille and crushed it. The plotters thought she would be eager to join them, but she dragged the weeping ringleaders to Sereille and made them throw themselves on Sereille’s rather small mercies. Sereille was not particularly pleased to have been saved—the plot was well laid out and ready to leap off—by one she so disliked.

 

Note here that Cadsuane, again, shows strong signs of respecting effective Amyrlins and not brooking opposition to them.

 

I'm not saying any of these prove that Cadsuane will blindly follow Egwene. But they certainly make me laugh when people say Cadsuane's support for Rand is in the bag! She will listen to Rand's reasoning, then she will listen to Egwene's reasoning, and then she will make a decision based on who she thinks is right. If she has to side with Rand, she will, but she won't easily oppose a strong Amyrling like Egwene. She certainly won't like doing so. Nor will she force the sisters working with to her, who are unlikely to simply defy the Amyrlin on her say so anyway.

This is the first time I read that the Aiel came to Merrilor on Egwene's request.

Read Egwene's final PoV. The Aiel came with the Tairens, who came at Egwene's request.

The fact is that the Aiel PoV vis-à-vis Rand is 2-3 weeks behind the date of the Merrilor conference. So, we cannot be sure that their presence is Egwene's doing. The Borderlanders are there and so is Perrin; but they're Rand's to the last man/woman.

They are? Last I saw, the Borderlanders were blackmailed into swear fealty to Rand, and shocked that he planned to break the Seals.

But regardless, the Aiel are the People of the Dragon; and the follow Rand, the Car'a'carn.

So? That has never stopped them from opposing him when the felt he was wrong. You seem to think I expect the Aiel to take up spears against Rand! I'm saying they may disagree with his decision to break the Seals!

The Dragon Reborn is a "wetlander" thing; and so is the Amyrlin Seat. They won't hesitate in choosing the Car'a'carn over the Dragon Reborn or Amyrlin Seat. And they know that saving a remnant of a remnant is tied to Rand, not Egwene.

The Seals aren't a wetlander thing. For a Remnant to survive, the DO needs to be defeated. If the Aiel feel that breaking the Seals risks the world (as their only on screen reaction indicates they will), they will oppose that part of Rand's plan. Not violently. Not by turning against him. But by arguing with him, which is exactly the extent to which Egwene intends to oppose him too. As Egwene's the leader of the faction opposing the "break the Seals" plan, they will support her if they also oppose that plan.

Whatever respect they have for Egwene does not take precedence over their destiny. She's a good apprentice whom they've taught well. But she isn't even a Wise One and has absolutely no authority or say over the Aiel. The Aiel are Rand's. It runs in their blood. Egwene will be disappointed if she thinks the Aiel will follow her over Rand.

She doesn't "think" they will support her. They showed her support when she met them! You can ignore the text all you like, but that's what the books show. Even when Rand was kidnapped by the Tower AS, only the fanatical Sisawi'aman and the Wise Ones dared to oppose the AS! That's why only 5000 Aiel accompanied Perrin instead of 50,000. And this is an issue in which the Wise Ones actually agree with the Amyrlin Seat. Why exactly will they not oppose the plan if they think it stupid? Remember, the Car'a'carn is not a king. The Aiel keep affirming that its their right to oppose him if he proposes something stupid! How can you have missed this?

[Maleshub]

I never said they won't obey. I said they will obey reluctantly. If you think they're not going to feel conflicted about overriding the Amyrlin's authority, think again.

 

It is simple enough to see how small this presumed conflict will be. What has been the conduct and actions of the sworn Aes Sedai who aren't Black since they gave Rand their oath of fealty. They removed themselves from the WT and have become Wise Ones' apprentices (learning what it means to be strong women in the process). Even the Salidar embassy cut off their relationship with Salidar. Have any of them made contact with the WT? Do we have any hint or PoV's where they show that there is an inner conflict between their oath to Rand (made binding by their binder) and their allegiance to the WT?

 

Up till Tarmon Gai'don, the sworn Aes Sedai are Rand's and will honor their oaths. It is part of the Prophecies of the Dragon!

 

If he forces them to by ordering them? Sure. But will he want such people with him?

 

He won't be forcing anyone to do anything. He'll be a commander with a battle plan giving orders to subordinates; and they will obey.

 

Was Moiraine beholden to the Amyrlin Seat?

She wasn't? Rather than openly defy Seirin, she ran away. And se certainly respected Siuan. You seem to be thinking that my position is that all Aes Sedai are mindless slaves of the Amyrlin. I'm saying that even if they disagree with her, they don't oppose an Amyrlin easily.

 

TEotW clearly shows that Moiraine's link to Siuan was their mission to find and help the Dragon, not her following of an Amyrlin. In fact, Moiraine broke so many rules, stayed away from the WT for so long, and hid information from Siuan that we know her drive was helping Rand, who takes precedence over the Amyrlin's status.

 

What makes you think there was a conflict? Siuan's thoughts in tGS and ToM make it clear that she thought her purpose as Amyrlin was to prepare the world for the DR. She didn't seem to see a difference between the two.

 

I never disagreed with this concept. Siuan was using the office of Amyrlin to serve the Dragon. She didn't put that office above the Dragon's cause. And she paid a very dear price for it.

 

No. The fact is that she kidnapped Myriam Copan into forced "penance", where she even turned her upside down. This was done to make Myriam from a weak Amyrlin to a strong one!

 

Note that as Cadsuane stood Aes Sedai custom and law on its head, what she aimed for was to 1) Make the Amyrlin stronger 2) Do this secretly so that she won't publicly lose face.

 

So, when an Amyrlin of a unifed tower was acting the fool, she put her over her knees and paddled her bottom! I don't think we disagree on that.

 

There's no guarantee. Once before, Cadsuane has shown herself to be completely against defying an Amyrlin, even if she personally can't stand the Amyrlin.

 

Note here that Cadsuane, again, shows strong signs of respecting effective Amyrlins and not brooking opposition to them.

 

I'm not saying any of these prove that Cadsuane will blindly follow Egwene. But they certainly make me laugh when people say Cadsuane's support for Rand is in the bag! She will listen to Rand's reasoning, then she will listen to Egwene's reasoning, and then she will make a decision based on who she thinks is right. If she has to side with Rand, she will, but she won't easily oppose a strong Amyrling like Egwene. She certainly won't like doing so. Nor will she force the sisters working with to her, who are unlikely to simply defy the Amyrlin on her say so anyway.

 

The problem with some of these arguments is that they are too "black and white." For example, "completely against defying an Amyrlin" is paramount to open rebellion, which was never part of the discussion. "Strong signs of respecting effective Amyrlins" when she hardly spent time in the WT. When was the last time that Cadsuance was in the WT or Tar Valon? Has she met Egwene to determine for herself that she is a strong Amyrlin and have an inner conflict of disagreeing with her?

 

Read Egwene's final PoV. The Aiel came with the Tairens, who came at Egwene's request.

 

Just because they used the same gateway (because they were in Tear because of Rand, not because of Egwene) doesn't mean they came for the same purpose or with the same intentions.

 

1- They are? Last I saw, the Borderlanders were blackmailed into swear fealty to Rand, and shocked that he planned to break the Seals.

 

2- So? That has never stopped them from opposing him when the felt he was wrong. You seem to think I expect the Aiel to take up spears against Rand! I'm saying they may disagree with his decision to break the Seals!

 

3- The Seals aren't a wetlander thing. For a Remnant to survive, the DO needs to be defeated. If the Aiel feel that breaking the Seals risks the world (as their only on screen reaction indicates they will), they will oppose that part of Rand's plan. Not violently. Not by turning against him. But by arguing with him, which is exactly the extent to which Egwene intends to oppose him too. As Egwene's the leader of the faction opposing the "break the Seals" plan, they will support her if they also oppose that plan.

 

1- Yes, Rand twisted their arms to follow him. Yet their prophecy says that he will break what he must break. The shock is there; but it isn't the shock of rejection and opposition since their prophecy foretells it. Regardless, they are in Rand's faction in Merrilor. They will not support Egwene; and are sworn to Rand.

 

2- When have the Aiel opposed Rand and declined to follow his orders and directions? They argue against him and make their opinions known and offer advice; but in the end, they follow the Car'a'carn, who listens to their advice when it makes sense or overrides it when he is determined in his course of action.

 

3- There is no plan to oppose, we both agree on that ;) . And the Aiel didn't pull an "Elayne" and throw their lot with Egwene. Amys thanked Egwene for bringing this to their attention; and told her that they will discuss it with Rand. There was absolutely no hint whatsoever that they wanted to oppose or stop Rand.

 

1- She doesn't "think" they will support her. They showed her support when she met them! You can ignore the text all you like, but that's what the books show.

 

2- Even when Rand was kidnapped by the Tower AS, only the fanatical Sisawi'aman and the Wise Ones dared to oppose the AS! That's why only 5000 Aiel accompanied Perrin instead of 50,000.

 

3- And this is an issue in which the Wise Ones actually agree with the Amyrlin Seat. Why exactly will they not oppose the plan if they think it stupid? Remember, the Car'a'carn is not a king. The Aiel keep affirming that its their right to oppose him if he proposes something stupid! How can you have missed this?

 

1- As I said above, Amys thanked Egwene and promised to discuss this with Rand. We have the Aiel PoV 2 weeks behind; so we don't know what happened. And there was absolutly no hint in the text (which I hate to ignore) that they meant to oppose or stop Rand. If I've missed a credible reference to Aiel opposition to Rand, please refer me to it.

 

2- Now that's a totally different story; and it has no bearing on this discussion. Still, you fail to mention that the Shaido were moving south of Kinslayer Dagger and that the Aiel were forced to send their main force in Cairhien against them. And you fail to mention that the bulk of the Aiel army was in Tear as part of Rand's plan against Sammael. And you fail to mention that the cause for secrecy was not to frighten the Aiel, not fear of opposing Aes Sedai. In fact, you turn the table upside down with your argument since Dumai Wells is the first instance in which Wise Ones broke all custom to rescue Rand (join battle, and fight Aes Sedai).

 

3- Again, there is no evidence that they agree. Egwene might think they agree; but that doesn't make it so. And again, please show me evidence of considerable and meaningful Aiel opposition to Rand. Which specific course of action, plan, or initiative did they object to and stop? They do not follow him blindly; and the Wise Ones work to keep the Aiel committed to him. But their prophecy and destiny are linked to Rand. He is their hope of saving a remnant of a remnant, not Egwene.

[fionwe1987]

It is simple enough to see how small this presumed conflict will be. What has been the conduct and actions of the sworn Aes Sedai who aren't Black since they gave Rand their oath of fealty. They removed themselves from the WT and have become Wise Ones' apprentices (learning what it means to be strong women in the process). Even the Salidar embassy cut off their relationship with Salidar. Have any of them made contact with the WT? Do we have any hint or PoV's where they show that there is an inner conflict between their oath to Rand (made binding by their binder) and their allegiance to the WT?

Put the word "divided" before WT in each of these sentences, and you're right. Remove it, and you're not.

Up till Tarmon Gai'don, the sworn Aes Sedai are Rand's and will honor their oaths. It is part of the Prophecies of the Dragon!

I see. Yet, Rand, who knows those prophesies, and is the man who holds their fealty, has this to say:

 

He grunted sourly. Few thought the oath meant absolute obedience? It was more like none. They obeyed, usually, yet the letter was not always the spirit.

 

As Verin said, "There are many ways to serve you. after all. and many needs." An Aes Sedai can decide she serves Rand best by stopping him from breaking the Seals, and nothing will stop her from supporting Egwene if so.

He won't be forcing anyone to do anything. He'll be a commander with a battle plan giving orders to subordinates; and they will obey.

I'm losing patience here. Show me one place where I have suggested they won't obey the letter of their oaths. If you can't, stop parroting the same statement.

TEotW clearly shows that Moiraine's link to Siuan was their mission to find and help the Dragon, not her following of an Amyrlin.

tEotW doesn't even mention Siuan!

In fact, Moiraine broke so many rules, stayed away from the WT for so long, and hid information from Siuan that we know her drive was helping Rand, who takes precedence over the Amyrlin's status.

Where in all this do you see open defiance of the Amyrlin Seat?

I never disagreed with this concept. Siuan was using the office of Amyrlin to serve the Dragon. She didn't put that office above the Dragon's cause. And she paid a very dear price for it.

Then I'm failing to see your point with the original question you posed.

So, when an Amyrlin of a unifed tower was acting the fool, she put her over her knees and paddled her bottom! I don't think we disagree on that.

But we do disagree on whether this Amyrlin is doing anything foolish. As of now, she has gathered support for an open debate, a sign of strong and sensible leadership, which Cadsuane has never opposed before.

The problem with some of these arguments is that they are too "black and white." For example, "completely against defying an Amyrlin" is paramount to open rebellion, which was never part of the discussion.

Of course it was! You're saying she will openly and publicly defy Egwene and side with Rand.

"Strong signs of respecting effective Amyrlins" when she hardly spent time in the WT. When was the last time that Cadsuance was in the WT or Tar Valon?

What has this got to do with anything? Staying in Tar Valon is not a sign of anything toward the Amyrlin Seat. Might as well say that her absence from Tar Valon is a sign of her disapproval of the perfume the Amrylin used!

Has she met Egwene to determine for herself that she is a strong Amyrlin and have an inner conflict of disagreeing with her?

She had inner conflict disagreeing with Elaida! And she has had only one source of info on Egwene on-screen: glowing reviews as to her character from the Wise Ones.

Just because they used the same gateway (because they were in Tear because of Rand, not because of Egwene) doesn't mean they came for the same purpose or with the same intentions.

That makes no sense. They can make Gateways of their own, if needed. Why would they come along with people who're planning to oppose Rand's plan?

1- Yes, Rand twisted their arms to follow him. Yet their prophecy says that he will break what he must break. The shock is there; but it isn't the shock of rejection and opposition since their prophecy foretells it. Regardless, they are in Rand's faction in Merrilor. They will not support Egwene; and are sworn to Rand.

The Prophesy is meaningless. It can be interpreted a million ways. And Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand too, yet they plan to oppose this plan of his! You seem to think fealty equals slavish obedience, but it isn't.

2- When have the Aiel opposed Rand and declined to follow his orders and directions?

When he ordered Maidens to stay out of battles. They even beat him up for this. They also refused to discuss Dreaming and Dreamwalking with him.

They argue against him and make their opinions known and offer advice; but in the end, they follow the Car'a'carn, who listens to their advice when it makes sense or overrides it when he is determined in his course of action.

And? You seem to agree with me here, yet you say you don't. Which is it?

3- There is no plan to oppose, we both agree on that ;) . And the Aiel didn't pull an "Elayne" and throw their lot with Egwene. Amys thanked Egwene for bringing this to their attention; and told her that they will discuss it with Rand. There was absolutely no hint whatsoever that they wanted to oppose or stop Rand.

You may want to read that scene again:

"He spoke powerfully," Egwene said, "but his words were those of madness. He said he is going to break the seals on the Dark One's prison."

Amys and Bair both froze.

"You are certain of this?" Bair asked.

"Yes."

"This is disturbing news," Amys said. "We will consult with him on this. Thank you for bringing this to us."

" I will be gathering those who resist him." Egwene relaxed. Until that moment, she hadn't been certain which way the Wise Ones would go.

"Perhaps Rand will listen to reason if enough voices are present."

"He is not known for his willingness to listen to reason," Amys said with a sigh, rising. Egwene and Bair did so as well. The Wise Ones' blouses

were laced in an instant.

 

They freeze when they hear the news. They call it disturbing. Egwene thinks they're seeing things her way, and when she says she hopes to make him see reason, Amys's answer implies that she does agree that Egwene's position is reasonable. Short of carrying "I oppose Rand al'Thor's plan" placards, I don't see what else the Wise Ones could have done here.

 

1- As I said above, Amys thanked Egwene and promised to discuss this with Rand. We have the Aiel PoV 2 weeks behind; so we don't know what happened. And there was absolutly no hint in the text (which I hate to ignore) that they meant to oppose or stop Rand. If I've missed a credible reference to Aiel opposition to Rand, please refer me to it.

Read above. They are clearly not happy with the idea. Now, if you want to claim they changed their minds after this, you need to show proof. I have the fact that they came with the Tairens using AS gateways as proof that they're siding with Egwene. You have a castle in the air built on the idea that they changed their mind off-screen and had some weird but non-specified motive for using AS gateways instead of coming on their own. Your position has no evidence, mine has two pieces of evidence from the text.

 

And we also have this:

 

"What?" Egwene asked, setting aside her papers.

"Aybara," he said. "He hasn't agreed to meet with you."

"Elayne said he might be difficult."

"I think he's going to take al'Thor's side," Gawyn said. "You can see it in the way he set up camp, apart from everyone else. He sent messengers immediately to the Aiel and to the Tairens. He's got a good army, Egwene. A huge one. With Whitecloaks in it."

 

So Perrin, who does side with Rand, has refused to meet with Egwene, and has also set up camp separately. Since Perrin is special in doing this, and Gawyn doesn't mention the Aiel as having done any such thing, we can assume the Aiel did meet with Egwene. And she has no qualms about their support. Another implication that they do side with her on this.

2- Now that's a totally different story; and it has no bearing on this discussion. Still, you fail to mention that the Shaido were moving south of Kinslayer Dagger and that the Aiel were forced to send their main force in Cairhien against them. And you fail to mention that the bulk of the Aiel army was in Tear as part of Rand's plan against Sammael. And you fail to mention that the cause for secrecy was not to frighten the Aiel, not fear of opposing Aes Sedai. In fact, you turn the table upside down with your argument since Dumai Wells is the first instance in which Wise Ones broke all custom to rescue Rand (join battle, and fight Aes Sedai).

"So many are not possible," the clan chief said slowly, and paused before going on. "Runners came this morning. The Shaido are moving south from Kinslayer's Dagger in force, into the heart of Cairhien. I may have enough to stop them—they do not all seem to be coming—but if I take so many spears out of this land, all that

we have done will have to be redone. At the least, the Shaido will have looted this city long before we return. Who can say how far they will have gone, into other lands even, and how many carried off claiming they are gai'shain." A strong odor of contempt came from him at that last, but Perrin understood none of it. What did it

matter how much land had to be reconquered—or even how many people died, though that thought came reluctantly, painfully—stacked against Rand, the Dragon Reborn, being taken prisoner to Tar Valon?

Sorilea had been studying Perrin. Wise Ones' eyes often made Perrin feel as Aes Sedai's did, that he had been weighed to the ounce and measured to the inch. Sorilea made him feel he had been disassembled like a broken plow, every pin hefted and examined to see whether it should be mended or replaced. "Tell him

everything, Rhuarc," she said sharply.

Amys laid a hand on Rhuarc's arm. "He has the right to know, shade of my heart. He is Rand al'Thor's near-brother." Her voice was gentle, her smell quite firm.

Rhuarc gave the Wise Ones a hard look, and Dobraine a contemptuous one. Finally he straightened to his full height. "I can take only Maidens and siswai'aman." By his tone and his smell, he would rather lose an arm than speak those words. "Too many of the others will not dance the spears with Aes Sedai." Dobraine's lip

curled in contempt.

 

The considerations about the Shaido are excuses. Rhuarc gives the true reason to be the reluctance of Aiel to face Aes Sedai. Later, Sorelia and Amys have a vigorous argument about fighting Aes Sedai. Sorelia wins, but by no means was their opposition to the AS a given thing.

 

And you need to remember. The Aiel believe they failed the AS and need to atone for it too. It isn't as one sided as you're trying to paint it.

3- Again, there is no evidence that they agree.

I'm sorry, but you keep saying this with no evidence. I have several sources of evidence indicating I'm right. You have speculation only.

Egwene might think they agree; but that doesn't make it so. And again, please show me evidence of considerable and meaningful Aiel opposition to Rand. Which specific course of action, plan, or initiative did they object to and stop? They do not follow him blindly; and the Wise Ones work to keep the Aiel committed to him. But their prophecy and destiny are linked to Rand. He is their hope of saving a remnant of a remnant, not Egwene.

And opposing his plan to break the Seals means they're breaking their ties to Rand? That's a ludicrous suggestion!

 

Lastly, you need to explain this:

 

In the Field of Merrilor the rulers of the nations gather to join behind Rand al’Thor, or to stop him from his plan to break the seals on the Dark One’s prison – which may be a sign of his madness, or the last hope of humankind.

 

According to the blurb, which was written by Harriet, the rulers are either behind Rand or oppsing him. You say that all who have sworn to Rand won't oppose his plan. Neither will the Aiel. This leaves Elayne supporting Egwene, ranged against all the other rulers of the world, which is not supported by the blurb at all. If everyone is going to fold over and accept Rand's plan, why is the blurb worded the way it is?

[Alleluia_Cone]

According to the blurb, which was written by Harriet, the rulers are either behind Rand or oppsing him. You say that all who have sworn to Rand won't oppose his plan. Neither will the Aiel. This leaves Elayne supporting Egwene, ranged against all the other rulers of the world, which is not supported by the blurb at all. If everyone is going to fold over and accept Rand's plan, why is the blurb worded the way it is?

 

Using your own reasoning, isn't the implication then, that some of the rulers there will be behind him? If Egwene and Elayne, along with their respective armies, do not qualify as being sufficient to justify the wording of the blurb, I can hardly credit Perrin by himself filling the same role in reverse.

 

There are also various factors not being considered here. It's one thing to be in disagreement with Rand's plan, it's quite another to actively oppose him. Not that I think it will descend to this level but, if Rand is unconvinced by arguments counter to his own, I can hardly see what anyone will be able to do about it. Will they, assuming it possible, take him into custody? And, if so, what then? Will the Aiel simply disregard his orders? Will the rulers that owe him allegiance simply take back their pledges of loyalty?

 

Do any readers find any of these scenarios the least bit plausible?

 

The other point that also goes largely unmentioned is that Egwene will be seemingly arguing with the most powerful ta'veren in history to garner the support of third-party witnesses. And that’s without even accounting for the possibility that Perrin, another powerful ta’veren, joins the argument on Rand’s side.

 

Facing that scenario, I find it difficult to believe that Egwene, or anyone else for that matter, would achieve much success. Doesn't the textual evidence support that conclusion?

[fionwe1987]

Using your own reasoning, isn't the implication then, that some of the rulers there will be behind him? If Egwene and Elayne, along with their respective armies, do not qualify as being sufficient to justify the wording of the blurb, I can hardly credit Perrin by himself filling the same role in reverse.

Of course there will be rulers behind him. Perrin, certainly, and Berelain almost as certainly. Allaindre also, and almost certainly Amalasan as well (the Tower apparently doesn't yet know he's alive and well). And while the Borderlands have been united till now, there's no reason to assume it will always remain so. Tenobia may be influenced by Faile/Bashere to either support Rand, or she may be piqued by their support of him and firmly oppose. Paitar may, given his close ties to the Tower, side with Egwene, or else, if he believes Rand's interpretation of his ancestor's prophesy, may go with his view of things. The Aiel may not even be a united front here, and at least two powerful Aes Sedai are going to have divided loyalties on the issue. The Asha'man, if they make it at all, will probably support Rand, but if Logain comes there, its anyones guess what will happen.

 

My point is not that Egwene has strong support and Rand stands alone. My point is that writing off Egwene's side of the argument, and those supporting her, at this point, is absurd given what we have in the text, and how the blurb is worded.

 

There are also various factors not being considered here. It's one thing to be in disagreement with Rand's plan, it's quite another to actively oppose him. Not that I think it will descend to this level but, if Rand is unconvinced by arguments counter to his own, I can hardly see what anyone will be able to do about it. Will they, assuming it possible, take him into custody? And, if so, what then? Will the Aiel simply disregard his orders? Will the rulers that owe him allegiance simply take back their pledges of loyalty?

No. If it comes down to an irrecociliable difference, I don't think even Egwene will withold support from Rand. Her words to Darlin, saying his support for Rand was "well measured" preclude any chance (if she even wants to make use of it) of turning those allied to Rand against him. Her own thoughts show that she desperately wants to avoid a stalemate, and has no plan to meet it. But I don't think it will come to that. They both have keys to the final solution, I think, and they'll find the middle ground after some time.

Do any readers find any of these scenarios the least bit plausible?

None of those you outlined, no.

 

The other point that also goes largely unmentioned is that Egwene will be seemingly arguing with the most powerful ta'veren in history to garner the support of third-party witnesses. And that’s without even accounting for the possibility that Perrin, another powerful ta’veren, joins the argument on Rand’s side.

Several points:

1) Ta'veren don't get what they want. In at least three instances with Rand (one of them including Egwene herself), Rand didn't get what he wanted at all.

2) This assumes Egwene has no point, and the Pattern desperately wants her opposition to Rand's plan to go away. Signs point the other way, with Egwene getting her Dream of the crystal globe and ropes right about when Rand entered the Tower.

3) As we saw with Tuon, if you have sufficient will, and a reason to defy the ta'veren, you can do it even with the enormous pressure of a ta'veren bearing down on you.

4) Egwene has been shown twice now to be resistance to Rand's ta'veren pull. Not saying she has some special powers, but the author could have been telegraphing us a hint of things to come.

5) No one knows what side Mat will be on. Given his typically supersticious/suspicious attitude to OP related issues, he may well not be okay with the Seals being broken. Especially if he sees Caemlyn fall before he gets to Merrilor. That may change things, though I have no idea how.

Facing that scenario, I find it difficult to believe that Egwene, or anyone else for that matter, would achieve much success. Doesn't the textual evidence support that conclusion?

Then this is the most absurd confrontation set up in the history of fiction, isn't it? But take the case of Latra Pose and Lews Therin. LPD also faced the worlds most powerful ta'veren. She was easily able to rally support against him, and completely frustrate his plan. That is pretty strong textual evidence that the Dragon can be opposed successfully.

[Maleshub]

We're discussing the books, which are open to interpretation. And I don't think anyone can claim that everything in the books is written in "black and white" format. Each reader can interpret an action as he or she sees, and there would be supporting evidence. And with the story yet unfinished, there is room for multiple interpretations.

 

Put the word "divided" before WT in each of these sentences, and you're right. Remove it, and you're not.

 

Is that why they all flocked back to the WT when Rand announced to them that Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat after his meeting with her?

 

tEotW doesn't even mention Siuan!

 

Sorry, then I guess I was referring to he TGH and the Moiraine – Siuan meeting.

 

Where in all this do you see open defiance of the Amyrlin Seat?

 

Another radical statement on your part, open defiance of the Amyrlin is rebellion. That was never part of the discussion. But I guess you are implying that Aes Sedai hold the Amyrlin so high that they always show utter obedience to her will and decisions. Is that the case?

 

But we do disagree on whether this Amyrlin is doing anything foolish. As of now, she has gathered support for an open debate, a sign of strong and sensible leadership, which Cadsuane has never opposed before.

 

My quote was "an Amyrlin" but you read it "this Amyrlin." I was just pointing to one of Cadsuane's character traits. And you read it as someone criticizing Egwene.

 

Regardless, your earlier post said that Cadsuane would listen to Rand and to Egwene and decide for herself. If Cadsuane takes Rand's side, would she be openly defying the Amrylin?

 

Of course it was! You're saying she will openly and publicly defy Egwene and side with Rand.

 

No, you are seeing any opposition to Egwene as open defiance of the Amyrlin. The question again, what if Cadsuane listens to both sides and then sides with Rand?

 

What has this got to do with anything? Staying in Tar Valon is not a sign of anything toward the Amyrlin Seat. Might as well say that her absence from Tar Valon is a sign of her disapproval of the perfume the Amrylin used!

 

"Strong signs" of someone supporting someone usually means at least meeting that said someone in person to get a judgement of said person. Cadsuane has been a "lone ranger" for decades and in retirement for a decade or two; but you try to paint her as a steadying force in WT politics, while she refused to take the Amyrlin Seat or even become a Sitter.

 

She had inner conflict disagreeing with Elaida! And she has had only one source of info on Egwene on-screen: glowing reviews as to her character from the Wise Ones.

 

Again, another radical statement: "glowing reviews as to her character from the Wise Ones." Egwene is a good apprentice who lied to them and then met her toh. It isn't as if the Wise Ones are enrolled in the Egwene Political Action Committee! If Egwene decided to stay with the Aiel, where would she be on the Wise Ones' hierarchy ladder? Would she even be in the top 10? She would still jump when Sorilea says "toad," and run if Amys says "run."

 

But you fail to read how Amys is repeatedly all cold and reserved when she meets Egwene in TAR after Salidar. Some might say it is because Egwene lied to her; but I see it as Amys knowing that Egwene is an Aes Sedai who doesn't have the Aiel welfare as her priority.

 

That makes no sense. They can make Gateways of their own, if needed. Why would they come along with people who're planning to oppose Rand's plan?

 

So you are saying that using the same gateway means they oppose Rand and will side with Egwene! I guess you're free to reach that conclusion. But for reference sake, where does it specifically say that the Aiel and Tairans came through the same gateway?

 

The Prophesy is meaningless. It can be interpreted a million ways. And Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand too, yet they plan to oppose this plan of his! You seem to think fealty equals slavish obedience, but it isn't.

 

That prophecy was so meaningless that the Borderlander monarchs did what hasn't been done in generations. They stripped the borderland kingdoms of 200K battle-hardened troops and spent months searching for the Dragon Reborn to follow that prophecy. Or is it when their prophecy disagrees with your interpretation that it becomes meaningless?

 

And we have another radical statement: Darlin and Gregorian plan to oppose this plan of his. Come on! We have both argued against "Egwene Critics" that Rand does not have a plan. But you keep saying that people will oppose his plan. That's a contradiction!

 

Darlin's letter to Egwene does not say that he will oppose Rand. He says that he'll attend to hear him out. And so does Gregorian (presumably). But you insist on reading that as siding with Egwene to oppose Rand.

 

When he ordered Maidens to stay out of battles. They even beat him up for this. They also refused to discuss Dreaming and Dreamwalking with him.

 

If that's the best you can offer on Aiel opposition to Rand, then you've proven my point. The whole Maidens issue is a personal thing with Rand and his foolish anxiety about women. It has nothing to do with his leadership. And the Dreamwalkers not discussing all dreams with him does not mean they oppose him. I don't even know how you can throw that one out there! Again, you're free to interpret that as you see fit.

 

3- There is no plan to oppose, we both agree on that ;) . And the Aiel didn't pull an "Elayne" and throw their lot with Egwene. Amys thanked Egwene for bringing this to their attention; and told her that they will discuss it with Rand. There was absolutely no hint whatsoever that they wanted to oppose or stop Rand.

 

You may want to read that scene again:

"He spoke powerfully," Egwene said, "but his words were those of madness. He said he is going to break the seals on the Dark One's prison."

Amys and Bair both froze.

"You are certain of this?" Bair asked.

"Yes."

"This is disturbing news," Amys said. "We will consult with him on this. Thank you for bringing this to us."

" I will be gathering those who resist him." Egwene relaxed. Until that moment, she hadn't been certain which way the Wise Ones would go.

"Perhaps Rand will listen to reason if enough voices are present."

"He is not known for his willingness to listen to reason," Amys said with a sigh, rising. Egwene and Bair did so as well. The Wise Ones' blouses

were laced in an instant.

 

They freeze when they hear the news. They call it disturbing. Egwene thinks they're seeing things her way, and when she says she hopes to make him see reason, Amys's answer implies that she does agree that Egwene's position is reasonable. Short of carrying "I oppose Rand al'Thor's plan" placards, I don't see what else the Wise Ones could have done here.

 

I am glad you quoted that scene. First off, it shows that Egwene (and I am a fan of hers) manipulated the Wise Ones. She accused Rand of madness and of wanting to break the seals. She never mentioned that he linked that breaking with resealing the Bore. One of Egwene's not so bright PoV's.

 

Confronted with a situation of the seals being broken without resealing the Bore, it is a small wonder they only freeze and offer to discuss this with Rand. And them stating that Rand is stubborn is not something new. It goes back to TSR. And It hasn't stopped them from following Rand with unequaled dedication and sincerity.

 

You see their willingness to discuss the issue with Rand as siding with Egwene. That's just seeing the world through Egwene goggles. WoT is not centered around Egwene.

 

They are clearly not happy with the idea. Now, if you want to claim they changed their minds after this, you need to show proof. I have the fact that they came with the Tairens using AS gateways as proof that they're siding with Egwene. You have a castle in the air built on the idea that they changed their mind off-screen and had some weird but non-specified motive for using AS gateways instead of coming on their own. Your position has no evidence, mine has two pieces of evidence from the text.

 

If Egwene were the center of WoT, then you would be right. But you are seeing weak circumstantial evidence as proof that the Aiel have agreed to oppose Rand and side with Egwene. I am convinced you will be disappointed when AMoL will come out. Call it a hunch, call it a castle in the air, call it whatever you flaming want to call it … The Aiel are Rand's to the last one.

 

1- The considerations about the Shaido are excuses. Rhuarc gives the true reason to be the reluctance of Aiel to face Aes Sedai. Later, Sorelia and Amys have a vigorous argument about fighting Aes Sedai. Sorelia wins, but by no means was their opposition to the AS a given thing.

 

2- And you need to remember. The Aiel believe they failed the AS and need to atone for it too. It isn't as one sided as you're trying to paint it.

 

3- And opposing his plan to break the Seals means they're breaking their ties to Rand? That's a ludicrous suggestion!

 

4- Lastly, you need to explain this:

 

1- They broke custom and fought Aes Sedai and joined battle. No small feats, are they? So, they had an argument before doing that. How does that change the fact?

 

2- Read what Bair said to Aviendha before sending her to Rhuidean; and what Melaine says about Aes Sedai; and the WO meetings with AS in TAR. The Aiel no longer consider AS special and their past failure is hardly taken into account in today's WoT.

 

3- (a) he doesn't have a plan; (b) they won't oppose a plan after it is formulated; © if Rand asks the Aiel to come with him to Shayol Ghul on the spot to "spit in Sightblighter's eye on the last day", they won't hesitate for a second.

 

4- You need to explain why AMoL cover has two of Egwene's Aes Sedai with Rand in the Callandor Circle. Are they there in open defiance of the Amyrlin?

[Alleluia_Cone]

No. If it comes down to an irrecociliable difference, I don't think even Egwene will withold support from Rand. Her words to Darlin, saying his support for Rand was "well measured" preclude any chance (if she even wants to make use of it) of turning those allied to Rand against him. Her own thoughts show that she desperately wants to avoid a stalemate, and has no plan to meet it. But I don't think it will come to that. They both have keys to the final solution, I think, and they'll find the middle ground after some time.

 

I'm largely in agreement that it will not come down to an irreconcilable difference; it has never been that type of series. Usually disagreements of this kind have been used to artificially create tension in a story where we know that, ultimately, none of the heroes will end up working at cross purposes in the end, no matter how likely that seems now (i.e., Rand, Egwene, Tuon).

 

All that being said, I thought this discussion, by its very nature, assumed an irreconcilable difference (in, at least, a theoretical sense).

 

Otherwise, why bother discussing what would happen if neither Egwene nor Rand budged from their respective positions?

 

Several points:

1) Ta'veren don't get what they want. In at least three instances with Rand (one of them including Egwene herself), Rand didn't get what he wanted at all.

2) This assumes Egwene has no point, and the Pattern desperately wants her opposition to Rand's plan to go away. Signs point the other way, with Egwene getting her Dream of the crystal globe and ropes right about when Rand entered the Tower.

3) As we saw with Tuon, if you have sufficient will, and a reason to defy the ta'veren, you can do it even with the enormous pressure of a ta'veren bearing down on you.

4) Egwene has been shown twice now to be resistance to Rand's ta'veren pull. Not saying she has some special powers, but the author could have been telegraphing us a hint of things to come.

5) No one knows what side Mat will be on. Given his typically supersticious/suspicious attitude to OP related issues, he may well not be okay with the Seals being broken. Especially if he sees Caemlyn fall before he gets to Merrilor. That may change things, though I have no idea how.

 

Don’t your points fail to take into account that the very last time we saw Rand exerting his ta’veren nature, every Aes Sedai in the White Tower besides Egwene was unable to even open their mouth, much less argue with him?

 

As I said before, I’m assuming a situation (perhaps unrealistically but only for the sake of argument) where Rand doesn’t back down and neither does Egwene.

 

Which, at very least, is what the writer wants us to think the scenario will be (if we go by the last thoughts of the two going into the meeting), even if it’s not likely to be the case.

 

Then this is the most absurd confrontation set up in the history of fiction, isn't it? But take the case of Latra Pose and Lews Therin. LPD also faced the worlds most powerful ta'veren. She was easily able to rally support against him, and completely frustrate his plan. That is pretty strong textual evidence that the Dragon can be opposed successfully.

 

It is the most absured confrotnation set up in history.

 

As I see it, the only reason this whole thing has turned into a large argument among readers, is that they are envisioning a scenario where neither of the two compromise. And they’re commenting on the fact that it really isn’t much of a good scenario to begin with.

 

I agree with them. I believe Egwene and Rand will come to a mutual compromise, very much so, but I have a hard time taking Egwene’s opposition as much of an impediment.

 

What it comes down to, in the end, is that Rand has always been the holder of all the cards. This applies as much to everybody else as it does to Egwene. It applies, equally, for example, to Tuon. She can go on and on about the Dragon Reborn serving her but if Rand doesn’t want to serve her, what is she going to do? Egwene can go on and on with her arguments about why she is right and Rand is wrong, but if Rand isn’t the slightest bit convinced, what is she going to?

 

Anybody and everybody can disagree with Rand and try to convince him differently but nobody can actually force him to do something he doesn’t want to do. And, by the same token, everybody is almost compelled to help him or face an even greater disaster than they imagine will result from following his orders. But, in any case, they certainly can’t stop him.

 

Latra Pose may have opposed the Dragon’s plan but she didn’t try to stop him from accomplishing it, and, if she had, the Dark One would have won. Egwene is basically in the same situation if Rand doesn’t budge.

[Ala Rubra]

Latra Pose may have opposed the Dragon’s plan but she didn’t try to stop him from accomplishing it, and, if she had, the Dark One would have won. Egwene is basically in the same situation if Rand doesn’t budge.

 

Actually, she kind of did. She got every single female Aes Sedai that had the necessary strength (and many who didn't even have the necessary strength) to help the Dragon to refuse to go along with it. If circumstances hadn't been so desperate, I believe that normally Lews Therin never would have tried something as assuredly complicated and difficult as sealing the bore without saidar support.

 

The difference in situations (then and now) is that Egwene really can't prevent/convince all females of necessary strength from helping Rand (at the absolute least, he will have the support of those Aes Sedai who swore to follow him). Unless, of course, every single one of those Aes Sedai that swore to follow Rand aren't of necessary strength for what has to be done.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Latra Pose may have opposed the Dragon’s plan but she didn’t try to stop him from accomplishing it, and, if she had, the Dark One would have won. Egwene is basically in the same situation if Rand doesn’t budge.

 

Actually, she kind of did. She got every single female Aes Sedai that had the necessary strength (and many who didn't even have the necessary strength) to help the Dragon to refuse to go along with it. If circumstances hadn't been so desperate, I believe that normally Lews Therin never would have tried something as assuredly complicated and difficult as sealing the bore without saidar support.

 

The difference in situations (then and now) is that Egwene really can't prevent/convince all females of necessary strength from helping Rand (at the absolute least, he will have the support of those Aes Sedai who swore to follow him). Unless, of course, every single one of those Aes Sedai that swore to follow Rand aren't of necessary strength for what has to be done.

 

Latra Pose denied the Dragon the use of female Aes Sedai but she didn't actually make an attempt to stop the Hundred Companions from carrying out their scheme. Similarly, if Rand wants to break the seals, and is set on doing it, I can't imagine what Egwene could possibly do to stop him. She might refuse to send those Aes Sedai loyal to her to aid him but would she actually go to war with Rand? That doesn't seem likely.

[Thrasymachus]

Latra didn't deny the Dragon the use of female Aes Sedai, she made a strong argument against Lews Therin's plan, and got all the women of sufficient strength, and many of those who were not of sufficient strength, and even a few men, to agree with her. The First Among Servants never had the power to command the Aes Sedai in such a way. If she did, she could have commanded Lews Therin and the male Aes Sedai not to go too. The conflict between the male and female Aes Sedai in the age of legends wasn't a conflict of authority or of power. It was a conflict of conscience.

 

It is, in essence, a mirror of the conflict that's occurring now. Egwene's rallying of the forces of the Light against Rand's plan to break the Seals is not a conflict of Rand's political/military power versus Egwene's, nor is it a conflict about who should be "in charge" of the Last Battle. The conflict is one of conscience. Egwene is rallying the forces of the Light to change Rand's mind, not force him into subservience to her or to the White Tower nor to try to "win the debate" by majority vote. Egwene knows that Rand has the seals. She knows that she can't stop him from breaking them if he really wants to. Her only option is to try to change his mind, which is what the FoM rally is all about, at least for her. Could Egwene "force" all the women of sufficient strength not to help Rand? Certainly not, and neither could Latra. But she could convince them, just as Latra did. That is, however, probably not very likely. Whatever divisions emerge as a result of this crisis of conscience will likely not be as neat and orderly as Men vs Women.

[cookiecrisp]

I think Egwene realizes that the White Tower is nowhere near powerful or relevant enough to effect Rand's plans. The only faction that near rivals Rand's forces are the Seanchan who control great military strength and supposedly a vast population if their holdings across the sea can be counted, but they don't really have a spot in Rand's heart. The Aiel probably are closest to Rand now, but they'll allow him to do anything to meet their destiny. I think Egwene's going to pull off one of here feats of politics (or lolplot whatever you want to call it) and actually make a united front to challenge Rand.

 

1 faction alone can't call the bluff "I'm going let you all die if I don't get it my way." However, the Dragon's Peace can be negotiated over with Rand with the Seanchan, Aiel, Sea Folk, White Tower, Borderlanders, Ashaman, Elayne's Kingdoms (court of the Sun or w/e) and Rand's current kindgoms (compact of the Gryphon?) have something to say about it. Rand can move forward and attempt to win the last battle without the Seanchan or the White Tower or perhaps even the Aiel, but there's no point in him trying to win TG alone for only himself.

 

I wonder why Rand thinks he can blackmail everyone into agreeing to the Dragon's Peace. What else can he do if people call his bluff?He holds no cards there. Same as Egwene trying to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

 

Well, he's got the Pattern bending around him, which he probably thinks is enough. Other than that, he has a reputation for doing stuff like letting the world die, and Egwene's not really in a position to call any bluff without the Seanchan.

 

Thing is that the White Tower's real power right now is politics. Their contribution can be getting the Seanchan on the same boat. There's really nothing else they can offer Rand or the lightsiders at this point. They can't do anything other then all turning Black Ajah. The Trollocs and Dreadlords will go and attack the huge target that is the Tar Valon regardless of what it's role is. They will have to use their military power if they don't want to end up in cookpots.

 

Latra didn't deny the Dragon the use of female Aes Sedai, she made a strong argument against Lews Therin's plan, and got all the women of sufficient strength, and many of those who were not of sufficient strength, and even a few men, to agree with her. The First Among Servants never had the power to command the Aes Sedai in such a way. If she did, she could have commanded Lews Therin and the male Aes Sedai not to go too. The conflict between the male and female Aes Sedai in the age of legends wasn't a conflict of authority or of power. It was a conflict of conscience.

 

It is, in essence, a mirror of the conflict that's occurring now. Egwene's rallying of the forces of the Light against Rand's plan to break the Seals is not a conflict of Rand's political/military power versus Egwene's, nor is it a conflict about who should be "in charge" of the Last Battle. The conflict is one of conscience. Egwene is rallying the forces of the Light to change Rand's mind, not force him into subservience to her or to the White Tower nor to try to "win the debate" by majority vote. Egwene knows that Rand has the seals. She knows that she can't stop him from breaking them if he really wants to. Her only option is to try to change his mind, which is what the FoM rally is all about, at least for her. Could Egwene "force" all the women of sufficient strength not to help Rand? Certainly not, and neither could Latra. But she could convince them, just as Latra did. That is, however, probably not very likely. Whatever divisions emerge as a result of this crisis of conscience will likely not be as neat and orderly as Men vs Women.

 

Well, I don't think Egwene is going to go about this the way that Latra did. If Rand isn't an arrogant man that's willing to break the world on the off chance that his plan might work this time around, Egwene isn't an arrogrant woman that will attempt to build Sa'angreal powerful enough to shatter the world like an egg this time around.

 

Lews Therin also wasn't some sort of prophecied mythical figure. Rand is. Egwene's more likely to see Rand as the Pattern's natural course and simply make sure humanity survives him and thrives, while Latra was had no prophecies to guide her and was panicked and desparate as anyone else that Forsaken where leading giant armies of Shadowspawn and annihilating the Aes Sedai and humanity in general.

 

I think Egwene and Rand have a huge dose of humility that Latra and Lews didn't. They both seem like Cadsuane on crack. Rand will be willing to listen to the world at large of Egwene manages to get everyone on board, and Egwene will be willing to let Rand take his necessary action if he can "confirm" that they won't all die.