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As Darkness Fits the Sun (NO SPOILERS please)


Terez
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This post has cover spoilers.

 

***

 

There are many prophecies and foreshadowings that relate to a time of darkness that we can expect to coincide with the time Rand is dead. I wanted to gather together all the quotes I could think of relating to that time of darkness, since we now have an eclipse on the cover. (Added back because the rest of my post doesn't make any sense without that.)

 

First up and most important is the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy, which I doubt will be fulfilled by an eclipse (certainly not a natural one).

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the

rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men

from the Shadow.

 

I've argued this in various places, but I don't think that this prophecy is particularly metaphorical, and so I don't think that an eclipse counts as a 'dawn'. There's more to it than that. Once for mourning suggests that Rand dies with the first dawn, and is resurrected with the second. It might speak of Elayne's babies, but if it does I'm thinking it will be both. There are several reasons for that. We know that Rand will survive the Last Battle, and there are indications that he has to be resurrected to do something that is actually important. So it makes sense to assume that the Dragon Reborn will bring them the Light when he is resurrected.

 

An eclipse lasts for a few hours including various phases, but totality never lasts any more than 7.5 minutes. We have two clues that Rand will be dead for three days:

 

Aes Sedai had been stilled studying ter’angreal. Burned out, it was called when it happened by accident, yet it was just as final. Nynaeve did not think so, of course, but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.
"The wing housing the apartments of the Dragon Reborn was largely destroyed, and he himself has vanished. It is widely believed that he has gone to Tar Valon to kneel before the Amyrlin Seat. Some do believe him dead in the attack, but not a great many. I advise doing nothing until you have a clearer picture." He paused, head tilted in thought. "From what I saw of him, my Lady," [Norry] said slowly, "I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse."

 

The people who are involved in these foreshadowings are never placed there by accident. Both of these are in Elayne's POV, and Nynaeve (the Healer) is referenced in the one. Nicola's Foretelling about Rand's death and resurrection is in Nynaeve's POV, and Elayne is present (and the very first line should have caught her attention).

 

The title of the thread comes from my sig quote, which I believe is a foreshadowing of an actual betrayal for Gawyn at the time of Rand's death (as darkness fits the sun), but there is another line that also lends strength to the idea that the darkness will accompany Rand's death. It's good to provide the full quote for the betrayal aspect, but I'll but the sun-relevant lines are underlined, and all the important aspects of foreshadowing are bolded:

 

Gawyn startled her by drawing a ragged breath. "I will give over everything, betray everything, for you. Come away with me, Egwene. We will both leave it all behind. I have a small estate south of Whitebridge, with a vineyard and a village, so far into the country that the sun rises two days late. The world will hardly touch us there. We can be married on the way. I don’t know how much time we will have—al’Thor; Tarmon Gai’don—I do not know; but we will have it together."

 

She stared up at him in amazement. Then she realized she had voiced that last thought aloud, What were those Aes Sedai up to?, and a key word—betray—slid into place. He thought she wanted him to spy on them. And he would. Desperately seeking a way not to, he still would, if she asked. Anything, he had promised, and anything he meant, whatever the cost to him. She made a promise to herself; to him really, but it was not the sort of promise she could speak aloud. If he let slip something she could use, she would—she had to—but she would not dig, not for the smallest scrap. Whatever the cost. Sarene Nemdahl would never understand, but it was the only way she could match what he had laid at her feet.

 

"I cannot," she said softly. "You can never know how much I want to, but I cannot." She laughed abruptly, feeling tears in her eyes. "And you. Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun." Unspoken promises were all very well, but she could not leave it at that. She would use what he gave her, use it against what he believed. There had to be an offering. "I sleep in the tents, but every morning I walk in the city. I come through the Dragonwall Gate, not long after sunrise."

 

Again, the people included in the foreshadowings are never placed there by accident. Nynaeve and Elayne will be involved in Rand's resurrection, but Gawyn and Egwene are much more likely to be involved in his death. There is other foreshadowing of this, most especially Egwene's Accepted test. It's not necessarily a bad thing—clearly there is a reason why Rand has to die—but these are their roles.

 

Back to the resurrection crew, Marie Curie pointed this one out to me just today (part of the inspiration for doing a thread). Again, the people involved, the context, is not by accident. Nynaeve's POV, and Elayne again, and this is the very chapter where Birgitte is ripped out.

 

"I may be younger than you, but sometimes I think I know more of men than you ever will. For a man like Valan Luca, that coy little flight of yours tonight was only asking him to keep pursuing you. If you would snap his nose off the way you did the first day, he might give up. You don't tell him to stop, you do not even ask! You kept smiling at him, Nynaeve. What is the man supposed to think? You haven't smiled at anyone in days!"

 

"I am trying to hold my temper," Nynaeve muttered. Everybody complained about her temper, and now that she was trying to control it, Elayne complained about that! It was not that she was fool enough to be taken in by his compliments. She certainly was not so big a fool as that. Elayne laughed at her, and she scowled.

 

"Oh, Nynaeve. 'You cannot hold the sun down at dawn.' Lini could have been thinking of you."

 

With an effort Nynaeve smoothed her face. She could too hold her temper. Didn't I just prove it out there? She held out her hand. "Let me have the ring. He will want to cross the river early tomorrow, and I want at least some real sleep after I'm done."

 

"I thought I would go tonight." Concern touched Elayne's voice. "Nynaeve, you've been entering Tel'aran'rhiod practically every night except the meetings with Egwene. That Bair intends to pick a bone with you, by the way. I had to tell them why you weren't there yet again, and she says you should not need rest however often you enter, unless you are doing something wrong." Concern became firmness, and the younger woman planted her fists on her hips. "I had to listen to a lecture that was meant for you, and it was not pleasant, with Egwene standing there nodding her head to every word. Now; I really think that tonight I should—"

 

"Please, Elayne." Nynaeve did not lower her outstretched hand. "I have questions for Birgitte, and her answers might make me think of more."

 

Just after Birgitte is ripped out, there's another strong foreshadowing of Rand's resurrection. Nynaeve's POV, with Elayne and Birgitte present, and the foreshadowing involves the person who taught Nynaeve how to 'heal' death. But beyond even that amazing level of layering, there is even more layering. Birgitte is derived partly from Birgit of Irish legend. Moghedien's alias Marigan is probably derived from Morrigan, of the same legends. The name of the chapter, "To Boannda", also invokes Boann of the same Irish legends...and that is where things start to get really interesting.

 

"Marigan" gives a story about her background, making herself out to be a healer, which touches Nynaeve's heart. (We find out later that Moghedien knows almost nothing of healing and has no talent for it.) Boann also has a name parallel in WoT, aside from the incidental naming of the town—Semirhage's real name is Nemene Damendar Boann—and Boann's lover, The Dagda (father of Birgit, husband of Morrigan) is paralleled in Dagdara, the best of the Yellows in Salidar. So both Boann and The Dagda are paralleled in evil but talented Healers.

 

When Boann and The Dagda were lovers, Boann became pregnant, and so The Dagda stopped the sun for nine months so that their son could be conceived and born on 'the same day'. Some stories say that The Dagda played his harp and bewitched time and space, and that he and Boann went across the veil to the otherworld where time flows differently. We know that Elayne's babies are probably Calian and Shivan, heroes of the horn whose birth is supposed to herald a new Age. This has always led many to believe that Elayne would have her babies on the day Rand's blood is shed, which dawns twice—once for mourning, and once for birth—but the tie-ins with the legend of Boann and The Dagda makes it seem almost certain that she will have them, and following the foreshadowing in the beginning of "A Silver Arrow", it seems that the sun will actually be held down at dawn. These clues cannot be accidental.

 

But here's the Boannda foreshadowing:

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

More sun/darkness references:

 

"Why should we watch?" Ronan demanded.

"For the hope of humankind," the tall woman replied.

"Against what do we guard?"

"The shadow at noon."

"How long shall we guard?"

"From rising sun to rising sun, so long as the Wheel of Time turns."

 

Obviously by 'from rising sun to rising sun' they mean 'every bloody day' but what if the shadow at noon lasts from rising sun to rising sun?—the twice-dawning day, during which the sun is held down at dawn (partly due to sheer stubbornness on Nynaeve's part).

 

Just a few more references to darkness, the first of which at least could be very relevant to the twice-dawning day:

 

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

— from The Prophecies of the Shadow

 

And a couple of vague ones from the very beginning of TEOTW (the first is tied to healing, and both are tied to evil, the second by way of the never-ending winter):

 

"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.
Only trees that kept leaf or needle through the winter had any green about them. Snarls of last year's bramble spread brown webs over stone outcrops under the trees. Nettles numbered most among the few weeds; the rest were the sorts with sharp burrs or thorns, or stinkweed, which left a rank smell on the unwary boot that crushed it. Scattered white patches of snow still dotted the ground where tight clumps of trees kept deep shade. Where sunlight did reach, it held neither strength nor warmth. The pale sun sat above the trees to the east, but its light was crisply dark, as if mixed with shadow. It was an awkward morning, made for unpleasant thoughts.

 

I don't think I missed any major sun/darkness references, but I'm tired, so it's quite possible I did.

Edited by Terez
Cutting out spoilers
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Nice, thorough as always.

 

 

It is all about interpretation, what is foreshadowing, what is not? This interpretation is as valid as the next. The parallels and reasoning are there, and I don't think any major plot points (like Gawyn dying) refute the theory.

 

Just a few points in relation to the events in the theory, not proving or disproving anything here, just interesting.

 

1. Could the 3 days death actually be in TAR time, not normal time? As we know, it moves strangely and randomly. Three days dead in TAR could = hours of the "eclipse", Or if it is the reverse, and 3 normal days, how long would they be in TAR? That is, I am assuming, the belief is that the "Healing" will be done in TAR where Rand is a HotH.

 

2. This is not going against your theory, just more on the "eclipse" and the possible meanings. The "eclipse", as yoniy0 first pointed out, may not be an actual eclipse, but the DO's control over the world, blocking out the sun.

 

Possibly a bit of Foreshadowing.

 

The Eye of the World Prologue

 

and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun

 

And we have Dark Prophecy.

 

Once again, His

glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things and the Great

Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His.

 

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,

and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

 

IN the Karatheon Cycle we also have possible mentions of a darkness. Of course, this could just be metaphorical.

 

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow

 

he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.

 

The Shadow shall rise across the world, and darken every land, even to the smallest corner, and there shall be neither Light nor safety.

 

 

Not to mention the title "A Memory of Light".

 

I think the eclipse darkness is actually the DO's influence spreading, not any natural eclipse. Which doesn't affect the theory really. It could add to it, since "day" could be interpreted as "light" not 24 hours. So three days could pass where, without Rand, the Shadow dominates the world and covers it in a "cloak of Darkness", when Rand is revived, so is the "day".

 

 

3. Also interesting is Rand is frequently synonymous with "Dawn" in the Karatheon cycle.

 

Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,

yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,

 

For he shall come like the breaking dawn,

and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.

 

And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy, he shall stretch forth his hands to catch the Shadow

 

That one is curious, born of Dawn? What does that mean?

 

Not sure if any of it helps or is even relevant. Just pulling out some stuff that may be relevant

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Born of the dawn is obviously not a metaphorical dawn, so obviously it means that Zeus came down as a ray of dawn light and sexed up Tigraine. But seriously I have no idea, he did a couple of things with the Aiel at dawn and VoG was at dawn which was like a rebirth, so he could of done lots of things.

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Mild-tempered as he is, he's very insistent when he wants to be, and sure as the sun there's nothing can't be Healed.

 

"And the man who would ask her to accept so little would not be worthy of her. You are a remarkable woman, as beautiful as the sunrise, as fierce as a warrior. You are a lioness, Wisdom."

 

Except maybe that if Elayne blushed like a sunset, Nynaeve blushed for two.

 

Nynaeve's eyes opened wider and wider, filling her face as it reddened to shame two sunsets. Maybe three.

 

Some of these are random, I'm sure, but Nynaeve seems well tied to the sun, as does surety that anything can be Healed.

 

I'd also like to add this Dark Prophesy as somewhat supporting your idea:

 

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

What makes me think this is related is that the "man who channels", Rand, will give his friends for sacrifice. I think this fits nicely with "the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come."

 

I think the "Daughter of the Night" in this passage refers to Egwene. It is coupled here to Rand's choice between life eternal and death beyond death because Egwene and her "new lover" Gawyn are tied to that choice. As for why, I think her Accepted test offers a clue:

 

“Tell me why,” she demanded. “Why would you ask me to - to murder you? I will Heal you, I will do anything to get you out of there, but I cannot kill you. Why?”

“They can turn me, Egwene."

 

I think Rand will soon figure out that Moridin's link to him allows Moridin to control him in some ways. Or he'll be afraid of it. And I bet Egwene will be involved in this finding out, because maybe their Dreams will be somehow connected in the Dream-space, and that is how Cyndane was able to enter Rand's dream.

 

Egwene has long been foreshadowed to break into Rand's dreams. I think she will when she notices the link, and an epic Rand+Egwene vs. Moridin+Cyndane battle will occur in TAR. After sending them packing (but not dead), Rand will decide he needs to "die", and ask Egwene for help. She won't be able to bring herself to do it, so Gawyn will, maybe.

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Just one thing. Daughter of the Night is Lanfear. Literally, in the old tongue.

 

She walks again, meaning she is free from the prison.

 

The rest is fair enough.

 

Of course, that is if you didn't know. If you are saying that you think it doesn't refer to Lanfear, fair enough, but would you mind explaining how, and why A Myrddaal would write a prophecy about Egwene, rather than a recently escaped Lanfear?

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I know DotN is Lanfear in the OT. The problem is, the Shining Walls never knelt to Lanfear, or to anyone when Lanfear was around. Now she isn't. She is Cyndane, and that is even what she calls herself.

 

But what is important to note is that Lanfear chose her name due to her association with Tel'aran'rhiod, and likley also because she wanted a name that mirrored LTT's "Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn". But that person is gone now, and she is "Last Chance".

 

But Egwene literally is someone to whom the title "Daughter of the Night" could fit today. Not in a negative sense, but in the sense that she rules the night. She is also a strong mirror/parallel to Rand, and is currently on a collision course with him over the Seals. And her latest victories are all in one way or another Dream related.

 

All that, plus the fact that the Shining Walls did kneel to her makes me think she's the "Dauther of the Night" of this prophesy.

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It is doubtful it is even authentic, I mean, I am not saying that it isn't, but it may not be actual prophecy, but a taunt.

 

But even if it was why would a Myrddraal write a prophecy about Egwene?

 

How does Egwene "walk again"?

 

And the "Ancient War" she "yet fights?" What war is Egwene still fighting? She is new to it. Lanfear though, is still fighting the WoS here in the thrid age.

 

Egwene was never "seeking" a new lover to serve her and die. Lanfear was, and it doesn't say that they ever did anything, just that this person would serve her, die, yet serve her still. It has been discussed elsewhere that this need not necessarily be Rand, although it would still fit.

 

"Who shall stand against her coming?" That could be Egwene, fair enough, but it also fits Lanfear. Since nobody stopped her until well after her "coming."

 

This may be nitpicking, but it says the "Shining Walls shall kneel." It doesn't say to who, or that they would kneel to somebody. Just that it would kneel. Which it did, when it was Broken , Lanfear was still alive (if that matters) and it was under the control of the Shadow via Aliviarin, Mesaana through Elaida. And it could not even be reffering to the White Tower. (Although I can't see another option)

 

 

I mean, I can see how you could think it meant Egwene, but it just doesn't make sense, when it fits Lanfear like a glove.

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I doesn't fit Lanfear at all, since a lot of it hadn't come true when Lanfear was alive.

It is doubtful it is even authentic, I mean, I am not saying that it isn't, but it may not be actual prophecy, but a taunt.

Could be, but that's doubtful. Too much of it matches too many things that happened too well.

 

But even if it was why would a Myrddraal write a prophecy about Egwene?

I'm not getting the drift here. Whyever not? The Prophesy has Rand in it. Nothing says Dark Prophesies can't be about Light-siders.

How does Egwene "walk again"?

I have a theory that since so much of her story has mirrors Rand, she too will have some kind of "revival". I don't think she'll die. But maybe she'll be seriously injured, and be down for a time.

And the "Ancient War" she "yet fights?" What war is Egwene still fighting? She is new to it. Lanfear though, is still fighting the WoS here in the thrid age.

I think this just means that she's fighting the War against the Shadow, and it isn't done after she starts walking again.

Egwene was never "seeking" a new lover to serve her and die. Lanfear was, and it doesn't say that they ever did anything, just that this person would serve her, die, yet serve her still. It has been discussed elsewhere that this need not necessarily be Rand, although it would still fit.

Seeking a new lover doesn't mean wanting to find a new lover, here. I think this means she's searching for Gawyn.

"Who shall stand against her coming?" That could be Egwene, fair enough, but it also fits Lanfear. Since nobody stopped her until well after her "coming."

 

This may be nitpicking, but it says the "Shining Walls shall kneel." It doesn't say to who, or that they would kneel to somebody. Just that it would kneel. Which it did, when it was Broken , Lanfear was still alive (if that matters) and it was under the control of the Shadow via Aliviarin, Mesaana through Elaida. And it could not even be reffering to the White Tower. (Although I can't see another option)

My problem here is that it is totally unconnected to Lanfear in either scenario. Why, in a prophesy about Lanfear, would the kneeling of the Shining Walls appear? If this was Egwene, it makes a lot more sense.

 

I mean, I can see how you could think it meant Egwene, but it just doesn't make sense, when it fits Lanfear like a glove.

It doesn't. When did any lover of hers "serve her and die, yet serve still". Lanfear had no lovers till she died. And if Cyndane has some, I don't think that counts, since she clearly isn't Lanfear anymore, even in her own mind.

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I won't go into too much since I am not trying to disprove the theory, just point out inconsistencies. (and yes, I could go a whole, whole lot deeper :tongue:)

 

 

The Daughter of the Night is not a title for the Queen of TAR. It is a name taken by Meirin in service of the Shadow. To call Egwene the Daughter of the Night would be a great insult.

 

 

Egwene has never had a lover. She can hardly seek a new one. Rand thought he would be married to her once, that is not a lover.

 

It says "she seeks her new lover." there is no mention that they will become lovers, only that he will serve her, die, yet serve her still. There are several options, Rand himself, who has served Lanfear in his own way, and may yet serve her still. Asomdean is another one, since he served her, and has died, but still could have served her. He calls her Meirin instead of Lanfear.

 

Besides, it doesn't matter that she has been transmigrated, she is still the Daughter of the Night.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

QUESTION

If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

ROBERT JORDAN

Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body

.

 

Lanfear was in the Tower for some time in tDR, the Tower did not oppose her coming and she was welcomed. She had power over the Black Ajah, who would constitute as having knelt to her. Which is what most of the DF's do to the Forsaken. Besides, the Tower could still kneel to her yet.

 

 

The whole prophecy is from a Dark perspective. Lanfear is being glorified in this passage. Rand is being taunted in the passage about him, talking about sacrificing his friends and the choice of a path. Slayer is being flaunted and the Seanchan thrown in Rand's face.

 

The other Dark Prophecy refers to Mat as the One Eyed Fool, and Perrin as the Fallen Blacksmith. The Light is always taunted and disrespected. The First Among Vermin, the Broken Champion, the Broken Wolf.

 

This Prophecy was written by a Myrddraal intentionally. To intimidate Rand. They wouldn't write something good about Egwene while they are trying to taunt Rand.

 

Why would they call her Lanfear? Why would she earn that respect? Why would they say "Who shall stand against her coming?" and that the Shining Walls shall kneel to her. If any Dark Prophecy referred to Egwene, they would call her Queen of Fools, as she calls herself in ToM. (that is from a Dark perspective)

 

I don't see the sense in a Dark Prophecy written to scare the crap out of everyone write about Egwene doing something really awesome, when the rest is a taunt. It would put Egwene in too much of a negative light. It looks the the Shadow are glorifying her. And Egwene is no Darkfriend.

 

 

As I said, I don't want to try and disprove it as such, just point out that it doesn't add up. If all of this can be explained, then fair enough. We will have to agree to disagree and, as is so commonly suggested RAFO :smile:

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Just a few quotes about betrayal that may be a bit of foreshadowing.

 

 

LoC: Chapter 46

Lews Therin was giggling and muttering indistinctly about friends and betrayal

 

aCoS: Chapter 7

Lews Therin rumbled like thunder on the horizon about death and betrayal

 

The reason why I suddenly decide to help with quotes etc.. is because of a passage I came across in tDR, the famous Mat v Gawyn and Galad scene.

 

"You should learn something of the sword. Everyone can do with that sort of knowledge these days. Your friend - Rand al'Thor - carries a most unusual sword. What do you hear of him?"

 

"I haven't seen Rand in a long time," Mat said quickly. Just for a moment, when he had mentioned Rand, Gawyn's look had gained intensity.

 

Then of course we have Rand's thoughts in tGS, where he thinks his lack-of-hand will get him killed one day. And Gawyn says a sword will be good these days. And comments on Rand's unusual sword.

 

Foreshadowing Rand's lack-of-hand will get him killed by Gawyn, and Rand certainly has another unusual sword.

 

So Rand tries to defend himself with Justice or Callandor, but the reflex fails him because of his lack-of-hand, and Gawyn succeeds in killing him?

 

Reading too much into that passage?

 

There is also the Foreshadowing of Gawyn's later hatred of Rand. And also reason to believe that Gawyn was obsessed with Rand before the whole "he killed my mother" scenario came up.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I won't go into too much since I am not trying to disprove the theory, just point out inconsistencies. (and yes, I could go a whole, whole lot deeper :tongue:)

 

 

The Daughter of the Night is not a title for the Queen of TAR. It is a name taken by Meirin in service of the Shadow. To call Egwene the Daughter of the Night would be a great insult.

Well yes. That was kind of the point, I thought.

 

Egwene has never had a lover. She can hardly seek a new one. Rand thought he would be married to her once, that is not a lover.

 

That isn't the only meaning of lover. Being in love qualifies you for the term "lover".

 

It says "she seeks her new lover." there is no mention that they will become lovers, only that he will serve her, die, yet serve her still. There are several options, Rand himself, who has served Lanfear in his own way, and may yet serve her still. Asomdean is another one, since he served her, and has died, but still could have served her. He calls her Meirin instead of Lanfear.

Rand served Lanfear? And Asmodean was never her lover. Calling her Meririn isn't a sign of love!

 

Besides, it doesn't matter that she has been transmigrated, she is still the Daughter of the Night.

No she isn't. Moridin is not "Betrayer of Hope" anymore either.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

QUESTION

If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

ROBERT JORDAN

Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body

.

That doesn't contradict anything I'm saying. Look at how Moridin is referenced in the other Dark Prophesy we know of. He is "Death", not "Betrayer of Hope". He's the same person, character wise and OP wise. But his name is different, and he even thinks of himself with this new name. Same with Cyndane.

 

Lanfear was in the Tower for some time in tDR, the Tower did not oppose her coming and she was welcomed. She had power over the Black Ajah, who would constitute as having knelt to her. Which is what most of the DF's do to the Forsaken. Besides, the Tower could still kneel to her yet.

That's some pretty weak "Shining walls shall kneel", though. Rand literally had Aes Sedai kneel to him, but he only got "the Unstained Tower shall bend". The Shining Walls kneeling has to do with Tar Valon falling, not some Aes Sedai from the Tower obeying someone else.

 

The whole prophecy is from a Dark perspective. Lanfear is being glorified in this passage. Rand is being taunted in the passage about him, talking about sacrificing his friends and the choice of a path. Slayer is being flaunted and the Seanchan thrown in Rand's face.

But who said that the foretellers who give Dark Prophesies have any control over what they say? Its not like they design their Prophesies to be taunting. For example, when Elaida foretold that Rand will know "the Amyrlin's" anger, it referred to Egwene. Was Elaida elevating Egwene? No. She just said the words, then interpreted them to mean they referred to her. The same could be the case with the Darkfriend who gave this prophesy. They probably thought Lanfear would be back, and would end up taming Rand. They probably thought his choice between life eternal and death beyond death referred to him either serving the DO or being destroyed when the DO broke free. None of these are the facts of the Prophesy, only their interpretation.

 

The other Dark Prophecy refers to Mat as the One Eyed Fool, and Perrin as the Fallen Blacksmith. The Light is always taunted and disrespected. The First Among Vermin, the Broken Champion, the Broken Wolf.

That is if these actually refer to these people. Not that I'm saying this is the case, but what if the 'First among Vermin' is Moridin? The name fits him well too. Prophesy is about interpretation, but unlike Dreaming, there is no one person whose interpretation is superior.

This Prophecy was written by a Myrddraal intentionally. To intimidate Rand. They wouldn't write something good about Egwene while they are trying to taunt Rand.

I doubt they knew they were referring to her!

Why would they call her Lanfear? Why would she earn that respect? Why would they say "Who shall stand against her coming?" and that the Shining Walls shall kneel to her. If any Dark Prophecy referred to Egwene, they would call her Queen of Fools, as she calls herself in ToM. (that is from a Dark perspective)

Prophesy isn't poetry. You don't choose the words, they come to you, and you do your best to interpret. They probably thought it referred to Lanfear. No need to think they were any better than Elaida at the interpretation.

I don't see the sense in a Dark Prophecy written to scare the crap out of everyone write about Egwene doing something really awesome, when the rest is a taunt. It would put Egwene in too much of a negative light. It looks the the Shadow are glorifying her. And Egwene is no Darkfriend.

Well obviously. I don't think she's a Darkfriend either.

 

As I said, I don't want to try and disprove it as such, just point out that it doesn't add up. If all of this can be explained, then fair enough. We will have to agree to disagree and, as is so commonly suggested RAFO :smile:

Well, we can agree to disagree. Or we could continue having a fun debate, bring up all the facts we know, and probably end up learning more about the situation. :smile:

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Fionwe, those are really good ones. Did you already have those on hand, or did you just find them?

Had some of them in my notes. The second quote with the sunset blush I had to search for. Others have blushed like the sunset too, but only Nynaeve has blushed like three sunsets. She is also an obvious parallel to Eldrene, the Rose of the Sun. She's Yellow Ajah. Plus, she is the obvious parallel to Rand's champion persona, which has a lot of symbolic ties to the sun.

 

So Nynaeve, the sun, sunsets, Healing and Death have a lot of connections. It fits very well with your other quotes, but is on the whole very subtle.

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I question things to see if they make sense when questioned more often than not, not because of any desire to disprove a theory, which some people take offence at, but I see you don't so I would be happy to continue.

 

1.Fair enough, although I don't see Lanfear too happy about that, poor Myrddraal if she ever found out! I can see it as an insult to Egwene. But Egwene was a nobody then. Why would anyone try to insult her. None of the Forsaken knew what she would become, I don't know how they could have figured out it was her they meant in the prophecy and then scribbled it to insult her. Sounds convoluted.

 

2. Well, I don't think Rand/Egwene were ever in love either. But I still think the term "lover" here is in the literal sense.

 

3. Rand did serve Lanfear, she used him for her own purposes. As Selene she used him in the Mirror World. In Cairhien she used him. In the Waste she used him with Asmodean, basically getting rid of one of the Forsaken for her. Since he was screwed from the moment he was bound to Rand. Also, the Lover comment does not imply that she succeeds in seducing or becoming lovers. She was seeking her new lover, but he only serves her, dies yet serves her still. Re Asmodean, yeah, I never thought much of the idea, but point I was making is that there are other theories of possible lovers, if that is what this means. We don't know what Lanfear got up to.

 

4. I suppose the debate on who a transmigrated person is can't really go anywhere, although the prophecy involving Moridin not Ishamael is a good one. Although if a prophecy spans two bodies, involving transmigration, who knows what would happen. For practical reasons RJ couldn't write Lanfear, then later on in the prophecy write "Cyndane, who is Lanfear's soul - she died once, you see, and came back- in another body." It is a matter of opinion here, with no actual way of deciding right and wrong. I can see both sides. She still is Lanfear, just as Lanfear is still Meirin. In terms of soul, her Meirin personality is still there. She has all of her memories and her mind is the same. The only difference is her name and body. And who knows what this would mean in prophecy, would it distinguish between soul and name?

 

5. Moridin is referenced in the Karatheon Cycle as Death, not Dark Prophecy. But as I said, it is a good one. Although I think that it was more a device used by RJ than any rule of prophecy-ing. We are not supposed to know Ishamael is Moridin in WH, he could hardly put Moridin- who was in fact Ishamael- etc... . And to be real nit-picky I will say that the Prophecy only says "whose name is Death." That is reference to his new name, not that he is no longer, or can no longer be considered Ishamael.

 

6. Yeah, the Shining Walls bit did always puzzle me, I have to admit. I wasn't really too keen on my own explanation there, it was more of a "see, there are options!" comment rather than what I actually believed. I don't know how that one works out. But Lanfear was in Tar Valon, and she was in the White Tower, and left unmolested. And the White Tower did split while she was still alive, possibly aided by her. Kneel here is a tricky one, it could mean several things. If you are going to pass off Egwene being called Lanfear, then I can challenge the meaning of kneel here. :tongue:

 

7. It isn't my fault the Dark Prophecies are always....Dark! :tongue: Both of these are distinctly...Shadow tinged Prophecies. They refer to the DO as the "Great Lord" and depict the Shadow as good, rather than evil, like it does in the Karatheon Cycle. We have the Great Lord smothering the Pattern in his Glory, and Rand's blood bringing the "Darkness so sweet" , and the reference to the Great Lord's return in the Egwefear(i got lazy) prophecy. They are definitely promoting the Shadow in these two.

 

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

As opposed to a Light Prophecy

 

All Glory be to the Creator, and to the Light, and to he who shall be born again. May the Light save us from him.

 

So the question remains, why, in a pro-shadow prophecy, would Egwene be glorified, while Rand is mocked. Unless you are suggesting the Myrddraal changed it to suit the Shadow, in which case the whole prophecy can't be considered reliable.

 

8. First Among Vermin I never liked as Moridin. Rand has the seals, he plans to break the seals. Why would Moridin lift his hand and break the seals? Unless this line refers to something way different, or something crazy happens with their balefire link.

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The reason why I suddenly decide to help with quotes etc.. is because of a passage I came across in tDR, the famous Mat v Gawyn and Galad scene.

 

(snip)

 

Then of course we have Rand's thoughts in tGS, where he thinks his lack-of-hand will get him killed one day.

 

Yeah, I think everyone who knows me knows that my thoughts went there immediately when I read that, lol. And the TDR scene with Mat vs Gawad was epic, and part of what convinced me that RJ had planned important roles for them very early on in the story structure. He had their roles more or less worked out in TEOTW. I'm glad RJ told someone that Galad and Rand were not going to have a swordfight; that narrows things down a lot. Unless Galad all of a sudden starts channeling, or picks up a spear, or something. It might happen, but it's hard to argue, and Gawyn fits better for other reasons.

 

So Rand tries to defend himself with Justice or Callandor, but the reflex fails him because of his lack-of-hand, and Gawyn succeeds in killing him?

 

Reading too much into that passage?

 

Probably a little. I try to avoid reading too much detail into it, but this might be another relevant foreshadowing:

 

"It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a Darkfriend. You were better than he."

 

Lan shook his head slightly. "He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you're dead."

 

Moiraine nodded. Surrender after you are dead. Yes.

 

Not when you are dead, but after you are dead. And another (which fits with Tyr vs Garm and Artur vs Mordred):

 

"Now be quiet and listen. I've only time for one last lesson, the hardest. Sheathing the Sword."

 

"You've spent an hour every morning making me do nothing but draw this bloody sword and put it back in the scabbard. Standing, sitting, lying down. I think I can manage to get it back in the sheath without cutting myself."

 

"I said listen, sheepherder," the Warder growled. "There will come a time when you must achieve a goal at all costs. It may come in attack or in defense. And the only way will be to allow the sword to be sheathed in your own body."

 

"That's crazy," Rand said. "Why would I ever—?"

 

The Warder cut him off. "You will know when it comes, sheepherder, when the price is worth the gain, and there is no other choice left to you. That is called Sheathing the Sword. Remember it."

 

There is also the Foreshadowing of Gawyn's later hatred of Rand. And also reason to believe that Gawyn was obsessed with Rand before the whole "he killed my mother" scenario came up.

 

Yeah, that's something I pointed out when I first started arguing it. Even before then, in TGH, he goes on about Rand when he first meets Egwene.

 

"Gawyn, Egwene knows Rand al'Thor. She is from the same village."

 

"Is she? Was he really born in the Two Rivers, Egwene?"

 

Egwene made herself nod calmly. What does he know? "Of course, he was. I grew up with him."

 

"Of course," Gawyn said slowly. "Such a strange fellow. A shepherd, he said, though he never looked or acted like any shepherd I ever saw. Strange. I have met all sorts of people, and they've met Rand al'Thor. Some do not even know his name, but the description could not be anyone else, and he's shifted every one of their lives. There was an old farmer who came to Caemlyn just to see Logain, when Logain was brought through on his way here; yet the farmer stayed to stand for Mother when the riots started. Because of a young man off to see the world, who made him think there was more to life than his farm. Rand al'Thor. You could almost think he was ta'veren. Elaida is certainly interested in him. I wonder if meeting him will shift our lives in the Pattern?"

 

There are also some thematic elements tied to Rand's hands, and particularly the loss of the one. He got both Dragons at once, so there's little to quibble there, but the first heron he got—"to set his path"—when Ishamael visited him is the hand he still has. I think that one was burned into him with the True Power. The second heron—"to name him true"—is the one he lost. "Which hand shelters? Which hand slays?" (TGH 7) "Two hands. One to destroy, the other to save. Which had he lost?" (TGS 47) There seems to be an implication that he lost something of who he was when he lost his hand. The whole Semirhage scenario fits with that, and also with the Tyr-Fenrir story. Tyr sacrificed his hand in order to bind Fenrir with a magical leash. sleepinghour suggests that Rand as the Broken Wolf parallels to Fenrir as well, so you might say Rand sacrificed his hand to keep the wolf in chains (by saving Min). I've talked about the wolf in sheep's clothing symbolism for Rand here. It also fits for Semirhage in a sense (with her being the wolf), and the whole scenario eventually leads to the dark side of Rand coming to the forefront (by saving Min again). He seems to conquer that completely on Dragonmount, but he's still linked to Moridin, and we know he has to die for some reason or another.

 

Fionwe, those are really good ones. Did you already have those on hand, or did you just find them?

Had some of them in my notes. The second quote with the sunset blush I had to search for. Others have blushed like the sunset too, but only Nynaeve has blushed like three sunsets. She is also an obvious parallel to Eldrene, the Rose of the Sun. She's Yellow Ajah. Plus, she is the obvious parallel to Rand's champion persona, which has a lot of symbolic ties to the sun.

 

I was mainly wondering what your motive was for having them on hand really, since I've never seen anyone try to argue Nynaeve's involvement in Rand's resurrection from the sun angle before. Some of those ties seem like the kind of thing Dom would talk about. (Was it? Though I don't think Dom has argued that particular angle either; I could be wrong.)

 

So Nynaeve, the sun, sunsets, Healing and Death have a lot of connections. It fits very well with your other quotes, but is on the whole very subtle.

 

Yeah, the subtlety of it is really amazing. When the Boann/Dagda thing hit me over the head, that's when I started to realize how subtle all the clues were...and I was already certain that Nynaeve would resurrect Rand via Tel'aran'rhiod just because of the relatively blatant nature of the Moghedien foreshadowing and the one in "A Conversation With the Dragon" ("Dream on my behalf"). The more I find, the more certain I become, if that's possible.

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Probably already know but another something I found interesting (I am currently trying to prolong my final re-read) was the Battle of Tar Valon in the Aiel War lasted 3 days, and then Rand was born.

 

I don't know about foreshadowing as such, but I like the symmetry of it if Rand dies at the start of the Battle of Tar Valon (perhaps a reaction from Gawyn to Rand wanting peace with the Seanchan. He wouldn't like Egwene hurt like that, and he only needs half a chance to kill Rand) and is "born" again on the 3rd day.

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Another possible mythological parallel is the sun's disappearance during Ragnarök in Norse mythology. Right before Ragnarök, earth suffers a long winter that ends all life. The sun turns black and is devoured by an enormous wolf (Sköll, the son of the infamous monster wolf Fenrir). Before dying, the sun gives birth to two children: a daughter who replaces her as sun, and a boy who becomes the new moon.

 

I think RJ borrowed fairly heavily from the Ragnarök myth, and there are much stronger parallels than that, but he might've included a nod to this part through Elayne, who recently claimed the Sun Throne and is pregnant with a boy and a girl.

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When Boann and The Dagda were lovers, Boann became pregnant, and so The Dagda stopped the sun for nine months so that their son could be conceived and born on 'the same day'.

 

 

 

Son? If they'd had a daughter they could have called her Daughter of the Nine Moons. :jordan:

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Another possible mythological parallel is the sun's disappearance during Ragnarök in Norse mythology. Right before Ragnarök, earth suffers a long winter that ends all life. The sun turns black and is devoured by an enormous wolf (Sköll, the son of the infamous monster wolf Fenrir). Before dying, the sun gives birth to two children: a daughter who replaces her as sun, and a boy who becomes the new moon.

 

I think RJ borrowed fairly heavily from the Ragnarök myth, and there are much stronger parallels than that, but he might've included a nod to this part through Elayne, who recently claimed the Sun Throne and is pregnant with a boy and a girl.

 

I lean heavily with the Norse for this one as well and it has some support depending on how you interpret what happened when the DO was let out in the AoL.

tSR chapter 26

What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it decended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white spere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.

 

How long did this Darkness last? We don't know but it's looking highly probable that we're going to find out.

 

Good call on Elayne's babies btw.

Edited by Finnssss
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Another good one I forgot to include:

 

Trollocs and Fades and things undreamed of had burst out of the Blight, and the world's new masters were being thrown back, for all the powers they wielded. So Rand took up the bow he had just fingers enough left to shoot and limped with those who marched north to the River Taren, men from every village, farm, and corner of the Two Rivers, with their bows, and axes, and boarspears, and swords that had lain rusting in attics. Rand wore a sword, too, with a heron on the blade, that he had found after Tam died, though he knew nothing of how to use it. Women came, too, shouldering what weapons they could find, marching alongside the men. Some laughed, saying that they had the strange feeling they had done this before.

 

And at the Taren the people of the Two Rivers met the invaders, endless ranks of Trollocs led by nightmare Fades beneath a dead black banner that seemed to eat the light. Rand saw that banner and thought the madness had taken him again, for it seemed that this was what he had been born for, to fight that banner. He sent every arrow at it, straight as his skill and the void would serve, never worrying about the Trollocs forcing their way across the river, or the men and women dying to either side of him. It was one of those Trollocs that ran him through, before it loped howling for blood deeper into the Two Rivers. And as he lay on the bank of the Taren, watching the sky seem to grow dark at noon, breath coming ever slower, he heard a voice say, I have won again, Lews Therin....

 

...He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.

 

I like the carpenter bit, but really, he's been all or most those things in this life. Soldier, shepherd, beggar, king, farmer, gleeman (flute), sailor (Coramoor, prophecy boat).

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Another good one I forgot to include:

 

Trollocs and Fades and things undreamed of had burst out of the Blight, and the world's new masters were being thrown back, for all the powers they wielded. So Rand took up the bow he had just fingers enough left to shoot and limped with those who marched north to the River Taren, men from every village, farm, and corner of the Two Rivers, with their bows, and axes, and boarspears, and swords that had lain rusting in attics. Rand wore a sword, too, with a heron on the blade, that he had found after Tam died, though he knew nothing of how to use it. Women came, too, shouldering what weapons they could find, marching alongside the men. Some laughed, saying that they had the strange feeling they had done this before.

 

And at the Taren the people of the Two Rivers met the invaders, endless ranks of Trollocs led by nightmare Fades beneath a dead black banner that seemed to eat the light. Rand saw that banner and thought the madness had taken him again, for it seemed that this was what he had been born for, to fight that banner. He sent every arrow at it, straight as his skill and the void would serve, never worrying about the Trollocs forcing their way across the river, or the men and women dying to either side of him. It was one of those Trollocs that ran him through, before it loped howling for blood deeper into the Two Rivers. And as he lay on the bank of the Taren, watching the sky seem to grow dark at noon, breath coming ever slower, he heard a voice say, I have won again, Lews Therin....

 

...He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.

 

I like the carpenter bit, but really, he's been all or most those things in this life. Soldier, shepherd, beggar, king, farmer, gleeman (flute), sailor (Coramoor, prophecy boat).

 

That is an awesome passage Terez. Thanks, hadn't read it in some time...

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