Who is the most overrated character in the wheel of time?

[RandA lThor]

I saw a discussion about the most underrated characters in the wheel of time and thought of some overrated characters too, so I am starting this discussion. Discuss.

[SuperFade]

Mat. He's an okay character but he's not as great as people make him out to be.

[baalsmistress]

The Creator.

 

People assign everything that goes right to him, yet he never actually does anything at all

 

second answer

 

The Dark One

 

He's had countless cycles of the wheel to refine his techniques, and he still fluffes it every cycle

[bigdoug1971]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

[EmperorMayhem]

how about the forsaken, the ones who have died already... they are spoken of in fear for hundreds of years, and masters of power and knowledge, and climb the political ladders of power in Very short order to rule a variety of nations... and?

 

touching mashadar in Shadar Logoth, allowing themselves to be beaten in TAR, even though they should be more well-versed in its ways, getting hugged to death by a tree, drawing too much of saidin? really? really. only Demandred impresses me thusfar. and Lanfear's power in battle, though she's been beaten before too.

[Suttree]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

 

The instituation has failed no doubt. You can hardly call being the main force for the ligth over three thousand years and saving the world a number times over a waste however.

[meeker]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

 

The instituation has failed no doubt. You can hardly call being the main force for the ligth over three thousand years and saving the world a number times over a waste however.

 

To be fair they also acted as the main force of the dark that put the world into the danger they then needed to be saved from.

[Suttree]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

 

The instituation has failed no doubt. You can hardly call being the main force for the ligth over three thousand years and saving the world a number times over a waste however.

 

To be fair they also acted as the main force of the dark that put the world into the danger they then needed to be saved from.

 

How so?

[meeker]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

 

The instituation has failed no doubt. You can hardly call being the main force for the ligth over three thousand years and saving the world a number times over a waste however.

 

To be fair they also acted as the main force of the dark that put the world into the danger they then needed to be saved from.

 

How so?

 

It was black sisters had been shaping policy to constantly create chaos and it was the arrogance of the "light" sisters that allowed them to do it unchecked. In a more direct manner they also served as the leaders of the dark in the Trolloc Wars.

 

It was also either the work of black sisters, or general incompetance(or both) that allowed the fall of Malkier.

[MasterAblar]

The entire White Tower.

 

Of all the things they could do in their world that would be good and honorable.......Anyway, what a waste!!!

 

The instituation has failed no doubt. You can hardly call being the main force for the ligth over three thousand years and saving the world a number times over a waste however.

 

To be fair they also acted as the main force of the dark that put the world into the danger they then needed to be saved from.

 

How so?

 

It was black sisters had been shaping policy to constantly create chaos and it was the arrogance of the "light" sisters that allowed them to do it unchecked. In a more direct manner they also served as the leaders of the dark in the Trolloc Wars.

 

It was also either the work of black sisters, or general incompetance(or both) that allowed the fall of Malkier.

 

Black sisters aren't really Aes Sedai though. Can you blame Tear for Weiramon? Cairhien for Barthanes?

[Suttree]

It was black sisters had been shaping policy to constantly create chaos and it was the arrogance of the "light" sisters that allowed them to do it unchecked. In a more direct manner they also served as the leaders of the dark in the Trolloc Wars.

 

So you are blaming them for a Forsaken plot when no one even knew Ishy was lose? In addition we know they date from around that time but not when they were founded by him.

 

"Two thousand years ago I took my Trollocs across the world, and even among Aes Sedai I found those who knew despair, who knew the world could not stand before Shai'tan. For two thousand years the Black Ajah has dwelt among the others, unseen in the shadows. Perhaps even those who claim to help you."

 

- The Eye of the World, Dreams and Apparitions

 

The WT can not be judged on the BA's actions. Would you do that for any other country and their DFs? AS are like any other group...some great ones, some terrible ones and then a whole bunch of average every day ones out working for good in the world forging treaties, averting wars, healing people etc. Blaming the Trolloc Wars on the WT is absurd. Especially considering the world would have been over run if not for Rashima Kerenmosa & co.

 

In addition the BA has fairly in depth securiy measures. You can not put all of their existence simply on AS arrogance. Their is a good article at 13th Depository on the topic if you would like a link.

 

It was also either the work of black sisters, or general incompetance(or both) that allowed the fall of Malkier.

 

No actually it was a secret plot by two DFs, Cowin Gemallan and Breyan Mandragoran. They stripped the borderforts allowing a sneak atack to come through unchecked. Pre-travelling there was now way an AS force could get there in time. Not even the nearest countries arrived in time to help. In no way can you possibly think to lay the fault at their feet.

[meeker]

The White Tower institionalized a system that both allowed black sisters to act pretty much unfettered and protected them from any accusation of wrongdoing. This was so pervasive that sisters of the light gladly took part schemes hatched by black sisters. For example, it might have been the black ajah that hatched the plan to kidnap Rand but there were plenty of non-black sisters that said, "hey, this sounds like a great idea, lets help."

 

 

It all kind of reminds me of what Homer Simpson had to say about beer, "it is the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems"

[MasterAblar]

The White Tower institionalized a system that both allowed black sisters to act pretty much unfettered and protected them from any accusation of wrongdoing. This was so pervasive that sisters of the light gladly took part schemes hatched by black sisters. For example, it might have been the black ajah that hatched the plan to kidnap Rand but there were plenty of non-black sisters that said, "hey, this sounds like a great idea, lets help."

 

The WT may have problems that made it easier for the black ajah to stay hidden and carry out their plans. Certainly they should not have been so blind as to think that there were no darkfriends among them. But despite all that, they still can't be blamed for what those darkfriends did.

[Suttree]

The White Tower institionalized a system that both allowed black sisters to act pretty much unfettered and protected them from any accusation of wrongdoing. This was so pervasive that sisters of the light gladly took part schemes hatched by black sisters. For example, it might have been the black ajah that hatched the plan to kidnap Rand but there were plenty of non-black sisters that said, "hey, this sounds like a great idea, lets help."

 

First we know that certain sisters were working against them. Cads "greatest failure" was being on the cusp and then not being able to out them and Verin dedicated her life to it.

 

WH Ch.13

Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good

 

Beyond that it is largely their extraordinary security measures that protects them from themselves. AS arrogance and the WT system can only be counted for the very smallest part. Afterall by your logic Malkier is at fault for that DF coup because their system allowed them to work unfettered and protected them because they were nobility.

[meeker]

First we know that certain sisters were working against them. Cads "greatest failure" was being on the cusp and then not being able to out them and Verin dedicated her life to it.

 

 

 

You can count on your hands the amount of sisters that actively tried to dispose of the black ajah. In fact Tamra and Siuan realized it was so hopeless that they had to swear accepted to secrecy as anyone else was suspect.

 

And even the sisters that did believe in the black ajah and were hunting them down still got involved in black ajah plots and thought nothing of them. Pevera and Seaine's group spent more time enslaving the rebels that they caught than actually finding black ajah.

[Aleator77]

I normally just lurk, but I have to say I'm with Meeker on this one. Tear and other nations are less to blame for the act of their darkfriends because they would have a much harder time rooting them out. All Aes Sedai would have to do is add a 4th oath to never serve the dark one.

Such an oath would be infinitely more useful than one to not make weapons. Even easier...simply ask Sisters to declare that they are not dark friends after raising. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because they could change their minds later on...but it would weed out the vast majority.

[Durinax]

white tower.

 

i am surprised that people forgot to mention manetheren and how the AS epicly failed them

[Thrasymachus]

The most overrated character by the fans? I'd say it's a tie between Rand and Mat. The most overrated character by the people in the story? Almost definitely Cadsuane.

 

And the White Tower is not so much a failed institution as the Third Age as a whole is a failed society. Aes Sedai are arrogant and disconnected from the people they are meant to serve because those people are fearful and mistrustful of any channeler after the Breaking, but of Aes Sedai in particular as it was male Aes Sedai who Broke the World. To continue to serve the people at all, those who would continue the Aes Sedai name and original legacy were limited to manipulation and intimidation, essentially forced to become more and more insular and self-defining. The only two cultures that managed to peacefully integrate channelers into their societies were Aiel and the Sea Folk, and both were unique in their relationship to and reliance upon channelers for their direction and survival through the Breaking. Everybody else was doing the best they could to get the hell away from anybody who could make stuff move around without touching it. How do you Serve when most people would rather run the other way than even hear what you had to say, let alone allow you to use the Power to fix stuff? If the White Tower is a failed institution, it only failed because it was embedded in a culture that could no longer tolerate such an institution without fear and distrust.

[RandA lThor]

The most overrated character by the fans? I'd say it's a tie between Rand and Mat. The most overrated character by the people in the story? Almost definitely Cadsuane.

 

And the White Tower is not so much a failed institution as the Third Age as a whole is a failed society. Aes Sedai are arrogant and disconnected from the people they are meant to serve because those people are fearful and mistrustful of any channeler after the Breaking, but of Aes Sedai in particular as it was male Aes Sedai who Broke the World. To continue to serve the people at all, those who would continue the Aes Sedai name and original legacy were limited to manipulation and intimidation, essentially forced to become more and more insular and self-defining. The only two cultures that managed to peacefully integrate channelers into their societies were Aiel and the Sea Folk, and both were unique in their relationship to and reliance upon channelers for their direction and survival through the Breaking. Everybody else was doing the best they could to get the hell away from anybody who could make stuff move around without touching it. How do you Serve when most people would rather run the other way than even hear what you had to say, let alone allow you to use the Power to fix stuff? If the White Tower is a failed institution, it only failed because it was embedded in a culture that could no longer tolerate such an institution without fear and distrust.

 

Very well said. Yes i agree that the characters in the story think too much of Cadsuane.

[Suttree]

white tower.

 

i am surprised that people forgot to mention manetheren and how the AS epicly failed them

 

 

Allthough solely the work of Tetsuan(who intervened to change orders and was then severly punished for her deeds), that was a bad one. Perhaps the very worst in their history.

 

First we know that certain sisters were working against them. Cads "greatest failure" was being on the cusp and then not being able to out them and Verin dedicated her life to it.

 

 

 

You can count on your hands the amount of sisters that actively tried to dispose of the black ajah. In fact Tamra and Siuan realized it was so hopeless that they had to swear accepted to secrecy as anyone else was suspect.

 

And even the sisters that did believe in the black ajah and were hunting them down still got involved in black ajah plots and thought nothing of them. Pevera and Seaine's group spent more time enslaving the rebels that they caught than actually finding black ajah.

 

All of this is beside the point. You can not count Forsaken and the BA's actions against the WT. It is utterly unrealistic to think DFs would not infiltrate the greatest power in the westlands. Once again, just like any group you have good, bad and average members.

 

This is the problem with some of the more overzealous anti-AS folks. There are so many legitimate gripes to raise in terms of how the insitituation has failed but they always go overboard in their critique and as a result it is hard to take any of it seriously. To say they acted as the "main force of the dark" is laughable.

[Durinax]

First we know that certain sisters were working against them. Cads "greatest failure" was being on the cusp and then not being able to out them and Verin dedicated her life to it.

 

 

 

You can count on your hands the amount of sisters that actively tried to dispose of the black ajah. In fact Tamra and Siuan realized it was so hopeless that they had to swear accepted to secrecy as anyone else was suspect.

 

And even the sisters that did believe in the black ajah and were hunting them down still got involved in black ajah plots and thought nothing of them. Pevera and Seaine's group spent more time enslaving the rebels that they caught than actually finding black ajah.

 

All of this is beside the point. You can not count Forsaken and the BA's actions against the WT. It is utterly unrealistic to think DFs would not infiltrate the greatest power in the westlands. Once again, just like any group you have good, bad and average members.

 

This is the problem with some of the more overzealous anti-AS folks. There are so many legitimate gripes to raise in terms of how the insitituation has failed but they always go overboard in their critique and as a result it is hard to take any of it seriously. To say they acted as the "main force of the dark" is laughable.

actually asa group who limits what they can do by use of a binder, the fact that they are the among the most heavily infested with dark friends is quite a scary oversight, as was mentioned before

[Suttree]

actually asa group who limits what they can do by use of a binder, the fact that they are the among the most heavily infested with dark friends is quite a scary oversight, as was mentioned before

 

As we have seen the binder can be worked around in various ways. Not to mention even granting the oversight it is still a leap of ridiculous propprtions from one to the other. Meeker was laying blame for the Trolloc Wars at the feet of the WT. I know we don't often see eye to eye on this topic Durinax but I'm sure you agree how ridiculous that is.

 

Very well said. Yes i agree that the characters in the story think too much of Cadsuane.

 

Hardly...have you read RJ's notes?

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

[Durinax]

actually asa group who limits what they can do by use of a binder, the fact that they are the among the most heavily infested with dark friends is quite a scary oversight, as was mentioned before

 

As we have seen the binder can be worked around in various ways. Not to mention even granting the oversight it is still a leap of ridiculous propprtions from one to the other. Meeker was laying blame for the Trolloc Wars at the feet of the WT. I know we don't often see eye to eye on this topic Durinax but I'm sure you agree how ridiculous that is.

it is rediculous about the trolloc wars

 

but I believe a oath like "I vow to never swear myself to the shadow" would be efficiently 100% effective unless completely unbound from the oath from the binder. besides the fact that they never implimented or thought to as far as we can see speaks volumes of itself

[Thrasymachus]

In my view, the practice of swearing on the binder at all was a mistake, but most likely one they could hardly be blamed for making. When the Sealing of the Bore commenced the Breaking, you'd still have Forsaken, former Aes Sedai sworn to the Shadow mucking about. Combined with the male Aes Sedai going crazy and re-arranging the continents, that would make anybody, including the original Light-side Aes Sedai, suspicious of channelers. I would submit that they themselves began using the binder on themselves in a temporary fashion. Swear an oath to tell the truth on the binder, assure everyone you're not a darkfriend, release yourself, and pass the rod. Then you can get on with whatever you need to deal with with this other channeler. By the time they got around to making any oaths permanent, the first one they chose was to make no weapon, yadda yadda yadda. This is a clear indication of a trust issue, mainly between the channelers themselves, and not so much a matter of non-channelers distrusting the Aes Sedai, though that also plays a part. They didn't swear the first permanent Oath until after the Trolloc Wars, if I recall correctly, and by that point, they would not only have forgotten the binder's original purpose, but forgotten that it would shorten lives.

 

The next two Oaths are also clearly indicative of trust issues, this time, not so much between channelers, but between non-channelers and the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai have the binder that they can use on a temporary and as needed basis to root out darkfriends. Further, swearing to tell the truth, being questioned about being a darkfriend, then being released, is far more secure than using a single, one-time, supposedly permanent swearing. On the other hand, it's also more taxing and painful. No doubt the Aes Sedai were more than willing to forgo repeated swearing and releasing for a one-time gig, and it's hard to blame them. But it's substituting a PR stunt for real security. Of course, it's PR the Aes Sedai desperately need, because they really are capable of serving the world, and have a deeply embedded institutional desire to do so, but are faced with serving a people who deeply fear and mistrust them for reasons that are also entirely understandable, if ultimately wrong and misguided.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think the White Tower is too bad. It was pretty awesome in the Trolloc Wars and even up to Hawkwing era. The "modern" Aes Sedai are the real failures. Since the fall of Hawkwing's empire, the Aes Sedai have fallen very far. They were a bastion of Light for the past 2000 years. From the Breaking until Amasalan, they were the main opposition to the Shadow. If the Tower hadn't existed, even with all the Black Ajah, the DO would have almost certainly have won.

 

The real failures are those of Post-Hawkwing WT. They are the useless, arrogant children that we know and love to hate. By the end of the dissolution of Hawkwing's Empire, almost all of the knowledge from the AoL had been lost, the Trolloc Wars Aes Sedai still had a fair bit of knowledge and skill behind them.

 

So Modern WT are the overrated ones.

 

The Forsaken in general are overrated by the Characters. They are underrated by the fans though, as blasting through armies and destroying cities has not been their goal. They have done their job well, apart from a few useless ones.

 

Fain is also overrated. From Brandon himself.

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 8th, 2007

Dragonmount Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

JASON DENZEL

 

And now, just for fun:

 

Who's nastier: Moridin, or Padan Fain?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No contest: Moridin. You can't really top Ishamael when it comes to nastiness, particularly if his opponent is just a little Darkfriend weasel. Yeah, Padan Fainfacilitated the attack on Emond's Field and all that, but he's still just a weasel.

 

A dangerous weasel,, to be sure, but I think his importance is overplayed.