Deleted scene in TEOTW

[Terez]

We had a conversation with Brandon about this during his #wotrr because he was wondering if Rand's fever dream about Thom reciting the Fisher King prophecy was an early example of Lews Therin talking to him. I thought it unlikely for several reasons, most importantly: 1) Why as Thom? 2) Lews Therin didn't start 'talking' to Rand until TFOH at the earliest, and really LOC. There are barely hints of it in TSR.

 

He dreamed of Tam. At first they were at the big oak table in the farmhouse, drinking tea while Tam told him about Prince Consorts, and Daughter-Heirs, and the Dragonwall, and black-veiled Aielmen. The heron-mark sword lay on the table between them, but neither of them looked at it. Suddenly he was in the Westwood, pulling the makeshift litter through the moon-bright night. When he looked over his shoulder, it was Thom on the litter, not his father, sitting cross-legged and juggling in the moonlight.

 

"The Queen is wed to the land," Thom said as brightly colored balls danced in a circle, "but the Dragon ... the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon."

 

Further back Rand saw a Fade coming, black cloak undisturbed by the wind, horse ghosting silently through the trees. Two severed heads hung at the Myrddraal's saddlebow, dripping blood that ran in darker streams down its mount's coal-black shoulder. Lan and Moiraine, faces distorted in grimaces of pain. The Fade pulled on a fistful of tethers as it rode. Each tether ran back to the bound wrists of one of those who ran behind the soundless hooves, their faces blank with despair. Mat and Perrin. And Egwene.

 

"Not her!" Rand shouted. "The Light blast you, it's me you want, not her!"

 

The Halfman gestured, and flames consumed Egwene, flesh crisping to ash, bone blacking and crumbling.

 

"The Dragon is one with the land," Thom said, still juggling unconcernedly, "and the land is one with the Dragon."

 

I pointed out that that dream had always made me wonder because it made me feel like I was missing the place where Thom originally mentioned the Fisher King prophecy (in the waking world), partly because the 'queen is wed to the land' bit comes from what Bunt was saying before Rand fell asleep, so it seemed natural that the Fisher King bit should have also come from a real conversation. Once I got to expertise level and I was sure the scene didn't exist, it made me feel like there must have been a deleted scene. I then progressed to thinking Rand was a Dreamer (mostly for other reasons). When Brandon brought it up, though, I realized that Thom also referenced the Black Ajah in a slightly earlier fever dream, and the Black Ajah had not been mentioned yet in Rand's presence at all (it had been mentioned once in the book at that point, but by Elyas).

 

Thom grinned at him sardonically. The gleeman's clothes hung in charred rags that made him see the flashes of light as Thom wrestled with the Fade to give them time to run. The flesh under the rags was blackened and burned. "Trust Aes Sedai, boy, and you'll wish you were dead. Remember, the price of Aes Sedai help is always smaller than you can believe, always greater than you can imagine. And what Ajah will find you first, eh? Red? Maybe Black. Best to run, boy. Run."

 

That passage could almost be blown off, but later Rand mentions it again (just noticed this in my reread):

 

The worst meant seeking out Elaida, the Aes Sedai in the Palace. He would go on to Tar Valon, first. He did not know if Mat remembered what Thom had said about the Red Ajah – and the Black – but he surely did. His stomach twisted again. "Thom said to find an inn called The Queen's Blessing. We'll go there first."

 

Clearly Thom is supposed to have told them about the Red and Black Ajahs in the waking world, but he didn't. They overheard some about the Red Ajah after they crossed the Taren, when Moiraine was helping Egwene to channel for the first time. They never heard anything about the Black Ajah from anyone before that point, though Ishamael mentioned it later in a dream, in chapter 43. This is the only discussion they had with Thom about Ajahs, just before the Fade showed up in Whitebridge:

 

The gleeman's thin shoulders shook with silent laughter, but his voice was anger tight. "You think you know enough about Myrddraal to escape by yourself, do you? You're ready to walk into Tar Valon alone and hand yourself over to the Amyrlin Seat? Can you even tell one Ajah from another? The Light burn me, boy, if you think you can even get to Tar Valon alone, you tell me to go."

 

So clearly, at least one of Thom's scenes was deleted or edited to trim the Black Ajah reference, and possibly also the reference to the Fisher King prophecy. I suspect it was in there somewhere (perhaps in the scene where Thom was talking about impossible prophecies), and RJ decided it would reveal too much, took it out, and forgot about the fever dreams altogether.

[Agitel]

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

As someone unfamiliar with Arthurian legend, looking up the Fisher King prophecy seems to clarify a lot of things: from why the piece in the game of sha'rah is called the Fisher (and how it's described) and it perhaps puts a greater importance on Rand's wound(s) in his side, but that's another topic.

[fikkie77]

I'm more intrigued by that Moridin was playing sha'rah and said to be playing both sides... (TOPD prologue)

[boli]

I'm more intrigued by that Moridin was playing sha'rah and said to be playing both sides... (TOPD prologue)

 

Just like Palpatine in Star Wars :) - and at that point is *is* playing both sides... letting the Lord of Chaos Rule whilst at the same time opposing him; From LoC to PoD the shadow is both supporting him and giving him something to fight against. The moves to kill Rand are never supported by the shadow; ony the moves to create divison (his capture, attacking the seachan) are.

 

Only at the cleasing does the shadow change its play from driving divions and fractures between the nations to attacks on the Dragon's Alligiance. which is resolved in TGS; After that the shadow changes its attack plan to kill the dragon.

[Terez]

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

It's unlikely mostly because it's bad form. It's okay to reference off-screen things, but you have to give proper context so as to not lose the reader.

 

Speaking of which, I'm guessing RJ did the time loop thing in those chapters partly to convey Rand's own confusion, and partly to confuse the channeling thing at Four Kings, and the sickness that follows it, so that only the astutest readers will pick up on it (because this is the first time Rand channels after Moiraine explains the sickness thing to Nynaeve). I figure that, in the process, RJ confused himself. At least in the editing process, which I understand is a confusing thing. Also it took him four years to write the book, and RJ says he doesn't like rereading what he's written after it's done, and I imagine he began to feel like he was done with certain parts of the book over time. He was slightly overimpressed with his own memory. Just a tad. (By the way, I have been a Maria fangirl since this.)

 

PS—It's possible that RJ took it out even knowing about the fever dreams, figuring that since they're dreams they don't have to make sense, and the only bit he actually missed was the bit in Caemlyn. It's possible he even knew that bit was there, and figured Rand could just be confused about what had actually happened since he had fever dreams about Thom talking to him about the Red Ajah and the Black Ajah. But I'd like to think that RJ is a little smoother than that.

[TristanWebb]

I think the time loop in tEotW is foreshadowing the major timeline messes that happen later in the series.

 

Though, if there is a missing scene it is covered well since no one else notices it in the confusion of everything else.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nice catch, you are probably correct. With something as big as the Wheel there is bound to be such occurrences. I am tempted to think RJ knew of it, and though "eh, it is such a small thing, who cares, nobody will notice." Which, until now, is true. He underestimated the power of his fans. It is often like that, I have seen in many cases (not just with books) where the fans know and remember more about (insert WoT,Harry Potter,Star Wars, Star Trek etc..) than the creator. I mean, the creator has the notes and ideas that haven't been revealed, but not stored in memory.

 

There is the real possibility that nobody picked it up at all, since BA had been mentioned, so the people should get it anyway, not realising that Rand had not been the one to hear about it.

 

It actually reminded me of the recent interview with Harriet when she talks about how he had to cut out 3 lines from every page when editing the Fallon books. Perhaps something like this occurred. It need only have been one sentence or a paragraph cut out of a scene which references the BA, assuming that the reader would know about it and just go with it. Or cut it out not thinking about the later scene.

[Agitel]

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

It's unlikely mostly because it's bad form. It's okay to reference off-screen things, but you have to give proper context so as to not lose the reader.

 

There is a brief explanation that's given by Elyas in Chapter 23 when he's describing his past to Perrin and Egwene. It's not a lot of context given to the reader, but it's some. Perhaps RJ needed to edit out lines and felt he could eliminate this redundancy for his audience. Or perhaps he forgot to include it when he had intended to. He may have figured that most readers wouldn't have tripped on this line after having already having a little exposition from Perrin's chapters. A little redundancy in this case wouldn't have hurt, though.

 

"I don't hold with Aes Sedai. The Red Ajah, those that like hunting for men who mess with the One Power, they wanted to gentle me, once. I told them to their faces they were Black Ajah; served the Dark One, I said, and they didn't like that at all. They couldn't catch me, though, once I got into the forest, but they did try. Yes, they did. Come to that, I doubt any Aes Sedai would take kindly to me after that."

[Terez]

Yeah, I mentioned that in the OP.

[BobH]

I think you certainly could be right about a deleted Thom scene, to explain the Red & Black Ajah references, and the "Dragon one with the land" dream/Fisher reference. Rand's thought in ch.35:

 

He did not know if Mat remembered what Thom had said about the Red Ajah – and the Black – but he surely did.

 

... indicates that Thom DID discuss the Red and Black Ajah with Rand & Mat sometime earlier (and off screen). But I'm not certain there HAS to have been a deleted scene to explain it all.

 

For one thing, Rand knew about the Red Ajah, from stories he had heard, before TEotW opened. Here's a quote from TEotW. ch.12:

 

He had never really understood what the Ajahs did. According to the stories they were societies among the Aes Sedai that seemed to plot and squabble among themselves more than anything else, but the stories were clear on one point. The Red Ajah held its prime duty to be the prevention of another Breaking of the World, and they did it by hunting down every man who even dreamed of wielding the One Power.

 

I think it's less likely he'd heard stories of the Black Ajah before he left the Two Rivers, but it seems possble their disputed existence came up during general discussions of Darkfriends. So I don't think there has to have been a deleted scene to explain the Red & Black references in ch.35, but I agree that it was bad form to reference a discussion that took place off screen, and that the reader had no idea occurred until that moment.

 

As for the "Dragon one with the land .." dream ... I can think of two other possibilities (in addition to Thom having mentioned it in a deleted scene).

 

1. Rand had heard the line from the K-cycle prophecy (from some previous Gleeman in the Two Rivers, say), and Bunt's mention of the queen being wed to the land triggered the memory in Rand's dream. And his dream had Thom speak the words because Thom had been the source of most of the information he was getting about such things recently.

 

2. Having already channeled at that point, a crevice to Rand's past lives had opened up, and he had a brief memory (again, probably triggered by Bunt's comment re the queen being wed to the land) of the Dragon being one with the land. I wouldn't call that an "LTT moment" to the extent that Brandon seemed to think it was (where an LTT persona was feeding Rand information), but rather just a past-life memory (from when he was LTT) creaping in. Kind of like how Mat can speak/understand the Old Tongue early on.

 

Either idea seems plausible to me. As does your idea of a deleted scene. *shrugs*

[Terez]

They didn't tell the prophecies of the Dragon in the Two Rivers, to the point that Mat only heard the idea that the Dragon was supposed to save them all from a merchant's guard (and Nynaeve had a fit about it). And Lews Therin's memories have never in any other circumstance come to him in a dream like that (spoken by someone else), so I see little reason to believe that this time should be different. It doesn't make any sense. I did cover some alternative options above. Some make more sense than others, but botchy editing seems the most logical explanation.

[TristanWebb]

The prophecies are far more known to the reader than the WoT populace, atleast before the Stone of Tear fell. Thom says in tGH that very few had read them or heard enough about them to know the passage Rand quoted. It is probably different after the fall with gleemen reciting it everywhere, but before then it seems unlikely he would of been able to hear it anywhere.

[dhammett11]

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

It's unlikely mostly because it's bad form. It's okay to reference off-screen things, but you have to give proper context so as to not lose the reader.

 

Speaking of which, I'm guessing RJ did the time loop thing in those chapters partly to convey Rand's own confusion, and partly to confuse the channeling thing at Four Kings, and the sickness that follows it, so that only the astutest readers will pick up on it (because this is the first time Rand channels after Moiraine explains the sickness thing to Nynaeve). I figure that, in the process, RJ confused himself. At least in the editing process, which I understand is a confusing thing. Also it took him four years to write the book, and RJ says he doesn't like rereading what he's written after it's done, and I imagine he began to feel like he was done with certain parts of the book over time. He was slightly overimpressed with his own memory. Just a tad. (By the way, I have been a Maria fangirl since this.)

 

PS—It's possible that RJ took it out even knowing about the fever dreams, figuring that since they're dreams they don't have to make sense, and the only bit he actually missed was the bit in Caemlyn. It's possible he even knew that bit was there, and figured Rand could just be confused about what had actually happened since he had fever dreams about Thom talking to him about the Red Ajah and the Black Ajah. But I'd like to think that RJ is a little smoother than that.

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

It's unlikely mostly because it's bad form. It's okay to reference off-screen things, but you have to give proper context so as to not lose the reader.

 

Speaking of which, I'm guessing RJ did the time loop thing in those chapters partly to convey Rand's own confusion, and partly to confuse the channeling thing at Four Kings, and the sickness that follows it, so that only the astutest readers will pick up on it (because this is the first time Rand channels after Moiraine explains the sickness thing to Nynaeve). I figure that, in the process, RJ confused himself. At least in the editing process, which I understand is a confusing thing. Also it took him four years to write the book, and RJ says he doesn't like rereading what he's written after it's done, and I imagine he began to feel like he was done with certain parts of the book over time. He was slightly overimpressed with his own memory. Just a tad. (By the way, I have been a Maria fangirl since this.)

 

PS—It's possible that RJ took it out even knowing about the fever dreams, figuring that since they're dreams they don't have to make sense, and the only bit he actually missed was the bit in Caemlyn. It's possible he even knew that bit was there, and figured Rand could just be confused about what had actually happened since he had fever dreams about Thom talking to him about the Red Ajah and the Black Ajah. But I'd like to think that RJ is a little smoother than that.

Good catch. It seems plausible that certain references were removed during the edits. A lot of conversation in the WoT seems to happen off-screen, so maybe it's implied that the conversation did happen but we are not supposed to know yet. That seems unlikely, though.

 

It's unlikely mostly because it's bad form. It's okay to reference off-screen things, but you have to give proper context so as to not lose the reader.

 

Speaking of which, I'm guessing RJ did the time loop thing in those chapters partly to convey Rand's own confusion, and partly to confuse the channeling thing at Four Kings, and the sickness that follows it, so that only the astutest readers will pick up on it (because this is the first time Rand channels after Moiraine explains the sickness thing to Nynaeve). I figure that, in the process, RJ confused himself. At least in the editing process, which I understand is a confusing thing. Also it took him four years to write the book, and RJ says he doesn't like rereading what he's written after it's done, and I imagine he began to feel like he was done with certain parts of the book over time. He was slightly overimpressed with his own memory. Just a tad. (By the way, I have been a Maria fangirl since this.)

 

PS—It's possible that RJ took it out even knowing about the fever dreams, figuring that since they're dreams they don't have to make sense, and the only bit he actually missed was the bit in Caemlyn. It's possible he even knew that bit was there, and figured Rand could just be confused about what had actually happened since he had fever dreams about Thom talking to him about the Red Ajah and the Black Ajah. But I'd like to think that RJ is a little smoother than that.

 

 

Off-topic, but in regards to being a Maria fan[sic]boy: this reminded me of a funny moment from one of the Brandon signings a year or two back where somebody asked Maria a question that resulted in her having a spontaneous Dr. Greg House-esque epiphany about a new unnoticed error in TEotW. I thought the story was pretty amusing at the time, but I can't seem to locate any reference to it at the moment... Anybody know what I'm talking about?

 

 

More on-topic: was Harriet editing the series from the beginning or did she come in later?

[Terez]

Off-topic, but in regards to being a Maria fan[sic]boy: this reminded me of a funny moment from one of the Brandon signings a year or two back where somebody asked Maria a question that resulted in her having a spontaneous Dr. Greg House-esque epiphany about a new unnoticed error in TEotW. I thought the story was pretty amusing at the time, but I can't seem to locate any reference to it at the moment... Anybody know what I'm talking about?

 

I think you might possibly be looking for this. Maria rarely goes to signings, though I can recall one she went to in New York, and she goes to the cons.

 

More on-topic: was Harriet editing the series from the beginning or did she come in later?

 

From the beginning. She edited and published his very first book, which was a decade before TEOTW was published.

[dhammett11]

Off-topic, but in regards to being a Maria fan[sic]boy: this reminded me of a funny moment from one of the Brandon signings a year or two back where somebody asked Maria a question that resulted in her having a spontaneous Dr. Greg House-esque epiphany about a new unnoticed error in TEotW. I thought the story was pretty amusing at the time, but I can't seem to locate any reference to it at the moment... Anybody know what I'm talking about?

 

I think you might possibly be looking for this. Maria rarely goes to signings, though I can recall one she went to in New York, and she goes to the cons.

 

More on-topic: was Harriet editing the series from the beginning or did she come in later?

 

From the beginning. She edited and published his very first book, which was a decade before TEOTW was published.

 

 

Yep, that's it. Thanks a bunch

Now if only my profs had your reply speed...