Olver, Elayne, and Caemlyn

[Suttree]

Wait, Kandor and Arafel fell? When did this happen?

 

We don't, not for certain...

[Suttree]

Please delete.

[RandA lThor]

How many channelers are in Caemlyn right now? If there was enough they could just destroy hordes of trollocs in circles as they came out of the basement. Of course we already saw Caemlyn in a fire so a lot or all of them have already come out of the basement, but it would really help to have channelers to destroy shadowspawn as they go through streets.

also sorry about the AMoL and ToM mix up.

[gloweye]

I thougt that the big cities without refugees were 500k an TV 700. but I dont know these for sure. But according to mr. Norrij's last reports on the subject to Elayne, the now have double.their old pop. They exceeded TV somewhere end TGS, IIRCAIUD.

 

Still, a lot of people to leave for the trollocs, as was my point.

[Durinax]

Wait, Kandor and Arafel fell? When did this happen?

 

We don't, not for certain...

well we know the border towers are broken, Saldaea is broken (only propped up by rand, and that was stopping a charge, unknown if they reinforced)

And likely Arafel (?) is completely over run due to the towers failing (and no message relays) and this is reinforced by Barrigas thoughts (the merchant).

[Suttree]

Please delete.

[Maleshub]

A very interesting scenario at the start of AMoL in Caemlyn. We know that the city (presumably the outer city or a part of it) is already burning. And we know that Daved Hanlon will be involved (that's on the side). We also know that the BA will be involved (at least two of them). And we have the Black Tower spice to add to the mixture.

 

One of the things that I feel foreshadowed the Battle of Caemlyn is in Mat's visit to Elayne and how his military mind saw the Inner City as designed to stand if the "Outer City" fell; and how the Palace can stand if the inner city were under attack.

 

My hunch is that Talmanes will get the Dragons and secure the Inner City till Mat arrives. Mat will then lead a defense of Caemlyn that outshines Rodel's defense of Maradon. With Dragons and the Kin for healing and gateways, Mat will have a chance to hold for the necessary time required to allow the forces of the Light to bring reinforcements (including Ashaman and Aes Sedai; and maybe Aiel). The outer walls would be secured; and the outer city would turn into a killing fields for Andorans and shadowspawn alike. Daved Hanlon would fulfill Min's vision of much bloodshed and rape before dying.

 

We know that Andor's maximum military strength is 200K troops (professional soldiers and irregular armsmen). That information is provided by Elayne when she thought about the possibility of fighting the Borderlander army marching through Andor. So, I don't think Caemlyn will have many defenders to begin with. We are certain that half the Band (about 12K troops) and another 10K mercenaries are camped outside the walls. I think that the maximum defending force that Talmanes can muster at the start is about 25K troops to hold the inner city (if that is where he makes his stand).

 

The situation in the Borderlands on the other hand is part fact and part speculation. We know that Maradon stands; and that the DO effort to break Saldea is itself broken and shattered. Tenobia and Bashere, with reinforcements from Arad Doman can probably hold Saldea.

 

In Kandor, we know that the guard towers have fallen; and Barriga thinks that Kandor has fallen. But this is based on his assumption that the fall of the towers means the whole kingdom has fallen. From earlier books, we know that Chachin is a formidable fortress that can be held by a small force. And we have no evidence that it has fallen. Traveling the queen and her 50K troops to Chachin might allow the city and kingdom to hold.

 

We also know that the situation in Arafel is volatile. But we also know that Alanna took Verin's warning seriously and is in her homeland trying to deal with that danger. So, the Arafelans have had a warning of what was coming; and they might be able to make a stand. Traveling Paitar and his 50K troops (with reinforcements from Rand's armies) to Dol Arafella might save the day here as well.

 

In Shienar, Lan's 12K mounted Malkieri and allies are holding Tarwin's Gap. If Rand and his Ashaman or if Borderlander Aes Sedai advisors Travel Easar and his 50K army to the Gap with Aiel and channeler reinforcements, the Gap can hold.

 

If Rand uses the Randland armies gathered in the Field of Merrilor to defend the Borderlands, he would still have most of the Aiel (Wise Ones included), Ashaman, and sworn Aes Sedai for his strike on Shayol Ghul. That will be a bloody mess; and truly a remnant of a remnant of Aiel would survive; and their cryptic saying of water and shade gone and spitting in Sightblighter's eye with the last breath would be fulfilled.

 

I cannot think of how the Seanchan will be involved; because they will be. But I think that Gareth Bryne has a few nasty surprises waiting for them in Tar Valon. The WT knows that the Seanchan haveTraveling; Leilwin is in the WT with her knowledge of the Seanchan military; and Egwene has indicated that the Tower's items of power cache is being constantly moved, and guarded by wards, constantly. The Seanchan attack on the WT will be an interesting scenario. One interesting thought is that Suffa will die in the Seanchan attack on Tar Valon! How ironic that would be!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wait, Kandor and Arafel fell? When did this happen?

 

We don't, not for certain...

well we know the border towers are broken, Saldaea is broken (only propped up by rand, and that was stopping a charge, unknown if they reinforced)

And likely Arafel (?) is completely over run due to the towers failing (and no message relays) and this is reinforced by Barrigas thoughts (the merchant).

 

Indeed, does anyone actually think that Arafel and Kandor still stand? Saldaea is screwed with one of the 5 Great Captains, preparations for the invasion, and Asha'man, and even still they got decimated. Kandor and Arafel do not have their armies, as they were round FM, no preparations for the attack, no relay messages, the Princes move even more troops out of their country and join up with Lan. I cannot see a defence lasting more than two weeks, and it has been around a month since the invasion began.

 

The main disagreement seems to be about the numbers of Shadowspawn involved.

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 5th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - kavorka (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Trollocs. Question was how many Trollocs did the Dark One have access to?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

He stated definitively that there are lots and lots of Trollocs. The Dark One has access to either "orders of magnitudes more" or "an order of magnitude" moreTrollocs that can be supported in the Blights (I can't remember whether there was an "s" there. Sorry). He wouldn't comment on how or where, but was very clear that there was going to be a big, big Trolloc army.

 

That is a lot of Trollocs, a very, very large amount. 50k Borderland armies would be small numbers, hardly enough to defend their respective nations for much more than a month, without considering food and other issues. For me, I can see each of the Borderland nations being invaded by at least 200k Shadowspawn each, while they are also sending more Shadowspawn armies through portal stones and the Ways. This is not human armies, they don't need the upkeep and treatment humans do, each Trolloc doesn't need a house and land to itself, along with a decent supply of crop or meat. The Trollocs eat anything, and are cannibals. They could sufficiently sustain 5x the amount of Trollocs compared to humans.

 

@Vandramus I know what you mean about Waygate and the Black Wind, I didn't forget that. However, the impression I got from the Letter was that this wasn't a problem. As Verin says, it is thought to be secure, which I would think takes into account the fact you mentioned, everyone thinks that no large forces can move through the Ways. However, as she says, they are not secure.

 

I have no idea how or why this is possible, or if the DO just doesn't care, and is willing to lose a few thousand Trollocs to the Black Wind. All I can say is that the normal rationale does not apply to the Shadow. Somehow, they manage to get an "enormous" army through the Ways. Although, to be fair, "enormous" to Verin could mean 20,000, since, as mentioned, 5000 used to be a decent army before EotW.

 

 

@Testy Yeah, fair enough. The difference was we were talking on different scales, but yeah, I agree with you.

[bsmnt23]

i think we have to prepare foe Camylen to be destroyed. The WoT is after all, a revision of the story of King Arthor. History or legend describes Arthor's "Three Futile Battles" in which Camlann was his last. There is a lot of parallels here, with the Battle of Maradon. Despite it being a victory for the Light it will be ultimatly a pointless one; Rand got a little stubborn about losing that battle and won it single-handedly, only to save a ruined city and an army already in retreat. No real strategic victory there unless you count morall. The othe futile battle, obviously is Lan's last charge of the Malkieri into certain death. I expect a miricle there, but I'm an optimist.

 

That leaves Caemlyn, or Camlann. It is lost; this is enevitable. It is the great symbol of Human achievment in this Age; arguments could be made for Tar Valon or Tear, but Tar Valon is not a symbol of HUMAN achievment but that of Aes Sedai power and the Stone of Tear is obsolete as a military bastion. Caemlyn is built up throughout the series as the most egalitarian, the most civilized and the richest and most powerful nation in Randland (Basicly its America. You dont have to like it.) The Dark One is rising and the Last Battle is in the wind. The great symbols of the Age HAVE to be torn down for the next to be built anew for the next Age. It's almost a Law of Fiction; this is a thing thats going to happen.

 

The event of the Battle of Caemlyn is going to be huge, though. The Band of the Red Hand is going to give hell to the Trollocs especialy when they get their hands on the dragons seeing them in battle is going to be the hope for the future that everyone needs to resist the Dark One. On a side note, I think its fascenating that with the relevation of part 1 of the Prologue of aMoL it stated right out that with every act of creation the Dark One was pushed back just that much. It very strongly implies that the very act of creating the dragons in the first place that drove back the omnipresent cloudcover over Caemlyn. I had thought it was Rand and Elayne's children pushing back the Dark One's influence for a while. Kinda neat. But I digress.

 

Olver I hope is going to come into his own. I hope he isnt the Gurgi of the series (and if you get that reference, +10 awesome points to you, sir) and that he has a chance to live up to his increadible potential. I've spoken about Olver in several forum posts in the past and I think he is going to be the shining star of the next Age--if he survives.

Oh I also think Rand is going to die at the Battle of Caemlyn. I dont know how or against whom or what happens next (I'm going with the return from TAR, myself, but I have nothing to base that on) but it IS thematily correct. After all, who dies at Cammann? Exactly.

[baalsmistress]

hell, 1 channeller that is capable of formign a gateway could hold that waygate against any quantity of shadowspawn.

 

All they'de have to do is cast a gateway, right on the threshold of the waygate, the terminus of it being 1mm further forwards.make it bigger and wider than the waygate and the shadowspawn wouldn't even see it before walking through it and dying en masse.

[EmperorMayhem]

where do i find a quote or reference for the explanation that shadowspawn can't move through gateways?

[TristanWebb]

It is in KoD (I think, might be CoT) after Rand makes the Death Gates, he tells Logain they can't travel through.

[Suttree]

where do i find a quote or reference for the explanation that shadowspawn can't move through gateways?

 

 

 

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005

 

KOD Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

 

Question

Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?

 

Robert Jordan

 

It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.

Question

 

So would a Nym have the same problem?

Robert Jordan

 

Yes.

Question

 

How about Ogier?

Robert Jordan

 

No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.

[RandA lThor]

I agree with this idea that one gateway could destroy all of them, but we may also have some dreadlords who can attack, and we have already seen fires in Caemlyn, this suggests that the Trollocs are actually already out and we cannot do anything about that.

[TootThatHorn]

 

 

Olver I hope is going to come into his own. I hope he isnt the Gurgi of the series (and if you get that reference, +10 awesome points to you, sir) and that he has a chance to live up to his increadible potential. I've spoken about Olver in several forum posts in the past and I think he is going to be the shining star of the next Age--if he survives.

Oh I also think Rand is going to die at the Battle of Caemlyn. I dont know how or against whom or what happens next (I'm going with the return from TAR, myself, but I have nothing to base that on) but it IS thematily correct. After all, who dies at Cammann? Exactly.

 

black cauldron!!!!!!!!! Nice parallel

[FarShainMael]

hell, 1 channeller that is capable of formign a gateway could hold that waygate against any quantity of shadowspawn.

 

All they'de have to do is cast a gateway, right on the threshold of the waygate, the terminus of it being 1mm further forwards.make it bigger and wider than the waygate and the shadowspawn wouldn't even see it before walking through it and dying en masse.

 

I quite agree!

 

I've never been happy with the 'Caemlyn=Camlann' idea. So I've put together my thoughts on the subject.

There are a number of problems with interpreting the situation at Caemlyn as a Camlann showdown between Rand 'Arthur' alThor, and a Mordred-figure.

 

1. Where are this event and Rand's dream of Lanfear on the timeline? I've been unable to find anything definite, but I get the impression that Rand's dream happens after Caemlyn is resolved. If anyone has anything definite to the contrary, please let me know.

 

 

2.Rand is not a straight copy of Arthur Pendragon.

2.a. If RJ had wanted to do that, he would have had Artur Paendrag take the Sword Callandor from the Stone.

2.b. Arthur never lost a hand.

2.c. Arthur was a warlord. Rand is not:

"I am not to fight this war, Bashere. Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished. Besides, I can only fight in one place at a time. What is coming will be grander than that, grander and more terrible than any one man could hope to hold back. I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours."

 

He has also said that he isn't a weapon, and he never was.

 

However, he does have a warlord available, possibly the greatest in Randland - "Bloody Matrim Cauthon". Who is on Caemlyn's doorstep - or will be, once Grady gets him back. (Note that Perrin Travelled to FoM immediately after Mat, Noal, and Thom departed for ToG; but it is not clear whether Grady went too, or whether he waits at Perrin's camp for the trio. I'd bet on the latter; Mat will want to rejoin the Band before heading for FoM.)

 

 

3. Who is Mordred supposed to be? We have a number of names containing the syllables of 'Mordred':

 

3.1 Moiraine Damodred

3.2 Moridin

3.3 Galad Damodred

3.4 Demandred

3.5 Mordeth (Fain)

 

Rather a lot to choose from!

 

 

4. The direct engagement between Mordred, who died, and Arthur, who was fatally wounded. We have already seen something very like this, when Rand Sheathed the Sword in his battle with Ba'alzamon (later reincarnated as Moridin!) in TGH47. The resultant wound in Rand's side may indeed eventually prove fatal.

 

 

5. Camlann itself. Camlann was a river, not a city. The word actually means 'crooked river':

 

http://www.earlybrit...es.html#Camlann

 

http://www.legendofk.../14-camlann.htm

 

Nevertheless, it is quite likely that RJ combined Camlann and Camelot into Caemlyn. Even so, this does not help much. The Camlaan 'strife' was a battle for succession for the throne. We've already had one of those for Caemlyn, and Elayne won it.

 

 

6. Is Caemlyn burning?

 

When Olver reads the letter and shows it to Talmanes, he goes out of the tent to look:

 

Talmanes stood just outside the tent, looking eastward. Toward Caemlyn. A reddish haze hung on the horizon, a glow over the city. One larger than had been there on other nights.

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning."

 

Consider where they are at this point. When Mat and the Band first arrived near Caemlyn, they set up camp about a league away by permission from Halwin Norry (ToM8). When Mat meets with Elayne, she gives him permission to move the camp closer, though not inside the walls as there isn't room (ToM19). Even if they don't move camp, a league isn't all that far - about 4 miles in our terms. That's quite close enough to see huge flames and clouds of smoke such as you would get if a city were on fire. Not just a 'larger' reddish haze.

 

So, all in all, I'm satisfied that 1. Caemlyn is not in serious trouble; and 2. Rand will not meet his death there (either of them!) at the hands of a Mordred-figure.

 

(Edit sp)

[TristanWebb]

Is there any evidence at all that Meiren scene is after Caemlyn? I thought at the end of ToM all the timelines were converging.

[FarShainMael]

Nothing I can pin down, that's why it's just an impression, and it may be false. That's why I'm asking.

 

Rand is contemplating the FoM, in his ordinary dream, especially Egwene and her marshalled armies. 'On the morrow, they'd hear his demands'. There is a LOT to get through before that happens - Caemlyn, the BT, the Seanchan attack on the WT. Of course , any or all of these may interrupt the proceedings, but I'm not sure if there's plot-time for that.

 

Of course, the Lord of Chaos may decide to go for it..

[Barid Bel Medar]

FSM, while I disagree about the importance of the battle of Caemlyn, I do agree about the Arthur Parallel, I never liked when people paid too much attention to them. There are similarities, but thats all, it is not a recount of King Arthur.

 

In fact, RJ said numerous times not to rely on them. The Arthur parallels are not the major ones, they are just the ones that are the most obvious to "Americans" (I take it to be all western culture, but his words.)

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 19th, 1994

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

 

BEN & CHRIS

There is a big influence (already mentioned) from wide ranging source materials. This is a great deal of fun, tracking down all of the various sources whilst reading. Is there a reason that the Arthur and other Avalon legends are referred to so much. Gawyn, Morgase, et al.?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They really aren't referred to any more than many other legends and myths, but they're simply more recognizable to most Americans.

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

 

There are a number of characters reflected, mythological characters, reflected in each of the books. Because of the basic theme, if you will, of the books, that information becomes distorted over distance or time, you cannot know the truth of an event the further you get from it. These people are supposed to be the source of a great many of our legends or myths, but what they actually did bears little resemblance to the myth. That is the conceit, that time has shifted these actions to other people, perhaps compressing two people into one or dividing one into three as far as their actions go.

 

So Rand has bits of Arthur and bits of Thor and bits of other characters. And so does Mat and so does Nynaeve, and so do others. And yes Mat does have some bits of Odin, but not exclusively. He has bits of Loki and bits of Coyote and of the Monkey King.

 

 

Basically, while I think that Caemlyn battle will be bigger than you suggest, it is not because of the Arthur myth, but because of the story itself. I think there is too much emphasis on the Arthurian legend with regards to theories.

 

Edit: The quote I was looking for originally.

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

 

KARL SCHWEDE

Is their any particular inspiration for the Forsaken, and the other antagonists in your series, as there are for the women characters? Demandred and how he was always an inch behind Lews Therin (in the Power, in swordsmanship etc...), for example—was there a particular inspiration for that?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

 

Well, there are—and I won't go into details because I want to keep the mythological and legendary roots hidden—I don't want to have people spending more time discussing the legends than the stories!

 

[FarShainMael]

Oh, I agree that what's happening at Caemlyn is significant - but not by involving Rand directly. I've speculated elsewhere that it may involve Mat, though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh, I agree that what's happening at Caemlyn is significant - but not by involving Rand directly. I've speculated elsewhere that it may involve Mat, though.

 

Yeah, fair enough. It is much more likely than Rand, anyway. I don't know if Rand wont be there at some point, but I don't think he will be a major player. He has more important things to do, as you pointed out. He wont be fighting the war, it would come too close to a confrontation (his words about Maradon) I doubt he would go off and do it again.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, fair enough. It is much more likely than Rand, anyway. I don't know if Rand wont be there at some point, but I don't think he will be a major player. He has more important things to do, as you pointed out. He wont be fighting the war, it would come too close to a confrontation (his words about Maradon) I doubt he would go off and do it again.

 

I doubt we'll see him pull of the same stunt as at Maradon. But that doesn't mean he can't be involved, that he can't direct everyone. I can't see him going ahead with the breaking of the seals while battles at Caemlyn, and perhaps the BT, and Tar Valon are going on.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, fair enough. It is much more likely than Rand, anyway. I don't know if Rand wont be there at some point, but I don't think he will be a major player. He has more important things to do, as you pointed out. He wont be fighting the war, it would come too close to a confrontation (his words about Maradon) I doubt he would go off and do it again.

 

I doubt we'll see him pull of the same stunt as at Maradon. But that doesn't mean he can't be involved, that he can't direct everyone. I can't see him going ahead with the breaking of the seals while battles at Caemlyn, and perhaps the BT, and Tar Valon are going on.

 

Read FSM quote from Rand. He says he will not be involved in the War, and he hasn't yet even figured out how to seal the bore properly, that is his first priority

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, fair enough. It is much more likely than Rand, anyway. I don't know if Rand wont be there at some point, but I don't think he will be a major player. He has more important things to do, as you pointed out. He wont be fighting the war, it would come too close to a confrontation (his words about Maradon) I doubt he would go off and do it again.

 

I doubt we'll see him pull of the same stunt as at Maradon. But that doesn't mean he can't be involved, that he can't direct everyone. I can't see him going ahead with the breaking of the seals while battles at Caemlyn, and perhaps the BT, and Tar Valon are going on.

 

Read FSM quote from Rand. He says he will not be involved in the War, and he hasn't yet even figured out how to seal the bore properly, that is his first priority

 

True, but that's what he is planning on doing. The Shadow might force him to change his plans.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, you are right, in fact I used a similar point with you in another topic, so I can hardly say anything against it

 

It is possible that Rand will be forced there by the Shadow, or even that everyone at FoM would expect him to go help out, and its not like he would just go "no, I haven't got the time. Deal with it yourself."

 

As it stands though, there is no reason for Rand to be involved, and from that quote, it is more likely he wont want to get involved.

 

Edit: Actually, there is a reason for Rand to get involved. Since this is not the AMOL board, and avoiding spoilers, I will say no more.