How does everyone think the DO will be defeated?

[Zorlon]

Doesn't work like that. It's finite, but once the weave is released and the flows that were woven to make it are gone it goes back in the "pool".

Yeah, but if the flows are tied off keeping the Bore sealed then it's not going back into the pool for quite awhile.

 

And, in the AoL, if every Tom, Dick, and Jane had a Sa'angreal to play around with it's not impossible there wouldn't have been enough power to spare at any given moment when something big had to be done. Though this does of course depend on just how much OP is floating around.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting

 

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

 

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

 

Bold mine. The only loophole I see in that is if somehow (Which I personally doubt, but I guess anything is possible) all the one power in the pool is required to reseal the DO. Which would mean the disappearance of the OP. But then that means the only way for it to be rediscovered is if the DO is already breaking free again and whatever weave used to seal him is dissipating and returning to the pool to be discovered. But that wouldn't make much sense with Lanfear drilling the hole in the Bore, which is what released the DO. Or as released as he's ever been. Until now I guess. Either way, the OP had been (re)discovered long before that, and long before the DO was even a known entity. I guess it could fit with this sealing having to be different, but I don't know.

[Zorlon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting

 

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

 

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

All available power being put to used at any given moment is not the same as all available power being used up and spent forever.

 

Bold mine. The only loophole I see in that is if somehow (Which I personally doubt, but I guess anything is possible) all the one power in the pool is required to reseal the DO. Which would mean the disappearance of the OP. But then that means the only way for it to be rediscovered is if the DO is already breaking free again and whatever weave used to seal him is dissipating and returning to the pool to be discovered. But that wouldn't make much sense with Lanfear drilling the hole in the Bore, which is what released the DO. Or as released as he's ever been. Until now I guess. Either way, the OP had been (re)discovered long before that, and long before the DO was even a known entity. I guess it could fit with this sealing having to be different, but I don't know.

Could be the Bore would heal itself without the DO being free to pick claw away at it, and even a tied off weave might unravel after a vast amount of time has passed.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting

 

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

 

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

All available power being put to used at any given moment is not the same as all available power being used up and spent forever.

 

Bold mine. The only loophole I see in that is if somehow (Which I personally doubt, but I guess anything is possible) all the one power in the pool is required to reseal the DO. Which would mean the disappearance of the OP. But then that means the only way for it to be rediscovered is if the DO is already breaking free again and whatever weave used to seal him is dissipating and returning to the pool to be discovered. But that wouldn't make much sense with Lanfear drilling the hole in the Bore, which is what released the DO. Or as released as he's ever been. Until now I guess. Either way, the OP had been (re)discovered long before that, and long before the DO was even a known entity. I guess it could fit with this sealing having to be different, but I don't know.

Could be the Bore would heal itself without the DO being free to pick claw away at it, and even a tied off weave might unravel after a vast amount of time has passed.

 

That stands to reason. The Bore is from what we can gather essentially a Gateway to the DO. The Pattern is continuously trying to mend the rip but what is keeping it open is in theory similar to the block Rand used to keep Aviendha's gateway open. Only that the DO can actually increase the opening with his power. If the DO's power can be driven back or dispersed somehow long enough for the Pattern to heal itself the Bore would close as if it never had been there.

[Neophyte]

Given the (at least possible) future that Aviendha saw in Rhuidean, with the Bore successfully sealed and channelers quite active only a short time later, it doesn't seem that the answer to sealing the Bore is even temporarily tying up all the available Power. If so, the destruction of the Choedan Kal would be a near mortal blow to the Light's hopes.

 

More and more I'm convinced that the solution, whatever it is, is not based in using massive amounts of Power.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Given the (at least possible) future that Aviendha saw in Rhuidean, with the Bore successfully sealed and channelers quite active only a short time later, it doesn't seem that the answer to sealing the Bore is even temporarily tying up all the available Power. If so, the destruction of the Choedan Kal would be a near mortal blow to the Light's hopes.

 

More and more I'm convinced that the solution, whatever it is, is not based in using massive amounts of Power.

 

Well, if Rand is linked to Nynaeve, Moiraine and her angreal and is using Callandor it will use massive amounts of Power. At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

[Suttree]

At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

I think people tend to overestimate a bit how much power he used there because of BS's description. We have this quote that seems to indicate he had been that powered up since KoD...

 

Loialson

Hey Brandon, I got a bunch of questions from the Wheel of Time Re-read.

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Okay! Alright! So Wetlander and people.

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

[Neophyte]

Given the (at least possible) future that Aviendha saw in Rhuidean, with the Bore successfully sealed and channelers quite active only a short time later, it doesn't seem that the answer to sealing the Bore is even temporarily tying up all the available Power. If so, the destruction of the Choedan Kal would be a near mortal blow to the Light's hopes.

 

More and more I'm convinced that the solution, whatever it is, is not based in using massive amounts of Power.

 

Well, if Rand is linked to Nynaeve, Moiraine and her angreal and is using Callandor it will use massive amounts of Power. At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

A lot of power? Yes. Something even remotely close to either the amount of Power made available by the Choedan Kal, or the total amount of the One Power in existence? Not remotely.

[thisguy]

So, if Rand has grown in power, which I get - he's still young - why didn't the Forsaken wipe the floor with him before now?

[Neophyte]

So, if Rand has grown in power, which I get - he's still young - why didn't the Forsaken wipe the floor with him before now?

 

The same reason that they didn't wipe the floor with him even though they should have all known how to invert and reverse flows from the beginning, and they all had way more conscious practice than he did.

 

He's the hero - and ultimately the good guys win in this story.

 

Likely in-story explanations? Ta'veren, good instincts, conflicting motivations for the Forsaken (infighting, wanting to see him suffer, wanting to make him a lover, wanting him to pull Callandor) etc. Maybe one more reason at the bottom of this post. But all other things being equal, he should have lost by now.

 

The concept of ta'veren is actually one of the better ways that I've seen an author wrangle with the fact that he's got to make the bad guys really dangerous (so the threat seems credible), and make the hero potentially vulnerable (so we can learn and grow with him), but end up with a victorious hero at the end.

 

And, I've said this before (this is the reason at the bottom of the post) - the Shadow doesn't ever seem to make a concerted effort to kill him. If it turns out that there is some reason that the Dark One needs him to get completely free, then ok, but if not, then the Forsaken should have been more than able to slaughter him by now.

[thisguy]

Yeah, the Ta'veren thing is pretty awesome. It's just that the whole time they're measuring who's more powerful and it's usually (for the men, at least) as powerful as Rand or just a shade less powerful. So, was LTT more powerful than the forsaken? I thought not.

[b3arz3rg3r]

At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

I think people tend to overestimate a bit how much power he used there because of BS's description. We have this quote that seems to indicate he had been that powered up since KoD...

 

Loialson

Hey Brandon, I got a bunch of questions from the Wheel of Time Re-read.

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Okay! Alright! So Wetlander and people.

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

 

In one case Rand together with fifty Asha'man if I remember correctly and atleast ten or twenty female channellers destroy between 50k to 100k trollocs together and I believe that there was some comment about Logain being able to hold close to what Rand could hold.

 

And in the other Rand on his own destroys enough shadowspawn to drive back an army of a million or more. He destroys more in an hour than a 100 Asha'man did in weeks. He is described as a one man army of channellers. So no, I don't think my assessment of equaling him to more than a 100 Asha'man is wrong.

 

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Given the (at least possible) future that Aviendha saw in Rhuidean, with the Bore successfully sealed and channelers quite active only a short time later, it doesn't seem that the answer to sealing the Bore is even temporarily tying up all the available Power. If so, the destruction of the Choedan Kal would be a near mortal blow to the Light's hopes.

 

More and more I'm convinced that the solution, whatever it is, is not based in using massive amounts of Power.

 

Well, if Rand is linked to Nynaeve, Moiraine and her angreal and is using Callandor it will use massive amounts of Power. At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

A lot of power? Yes. Something even remotely close to either the amount of Power made available by the Choedan Kal, or the total amount of the One Power in existence? Not remotely.

 

In VOG Rand described the amount he used to create Dragonmount, when he killed himself as LTT comparable to what he did during the Cleansing and he did that unaided. So I see absolutely no reason why SuperRand with Callandor wouldn't be able to tap on similar amounts.

[Neophyte]

At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

I think people tend to overestimate a bit how much power he used there because of BS's description. We have this quote that seems to indicate he had been that powered up since KoD...

 

Loialson

Hey Brandon, I got a bunch of questions from the Wheel of Time Re-read.

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Okay! Alright! So Wetlander and people.

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

 

In one case Rand together with fifty Asha'man if I remember correctly and atleast ten or twenty female channellers destroy between 50k to 100k trollocs together and I believe that there was some comment about Logain being able to hold close to what Rand could hold.

 

And in the other Rand on his own destroys enough shadowspawn to drive back an army of a million or more. He destroys more in an hour than a 100 Asha'man did in weeks. He is described as a one man army of channellers. So no, I don't think my assessment of equaling him to more than a 100 Asha'man is wrong.

 

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

There does seem to be a bit of a discrepancy there.

 

 

Given the (at least possible) future that Aviendha saw in Rhuidean, with the Bore successfully sealed and channelers quite active only a short time later, it doesn't seem that the answer to sealing the Bore is even temporarily tying up all the available Power. If so, the destruction of the Choedan Kal would be a near mortal blow to the Light's hopes.

 

More and more I'm convinced that the solution, whatever it is, is not based in using massive amounts of Power.

 

Well, if Rand is linked to Nynaeve, Moiraine and her angreal and is using Callandor it will use massive amounts of Power. At Maradon Rand used way more of the One Power than a hundred Asha'man could and that was unaided. Add Callandor which will multiply what Rand can do atleast tenfold and the relatively small bit from Moiraine and Nynaeve and you quickly get into similar areas as what Rand could do pre-VOG with the CK.

 

A lot of power? Yes. Something even remotely close to either the amount of Power made available by the Choedan Kal, or the total amount of the One Power in existence? Not remotely.

 

In VOG Rand described the amount he used to create Dragonmount, when he killed himself as LTT comparable to what he did during the Cleansing and he did that unaided. So I see absolutely no reason why SuperRand with Callandor wouldn't be able to tap on similar amounts.

 

How about the buffer of being in a circle? To create Dragonmount he drew near-unbelievable amounts because he was deliberately overdrawing. If he is linked to Nynaeve and Moiraine, he can't do that. If he's not linked to them, he doesn't have saidar available.

 

Callandor's capacity doesn't increase because Rand has gotten stronger (somewhere along the way).

[Suttree]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

[Neophyte]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

I think the rationale for saying that "Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor" is that at Lord Algarin's manor, there were a number of other channelers helping - Logain, the Aes Sedai, etc. At Maradon, Rand is standing in the field with two Maidens who are basically decoration at that point. So, if the total numbers of dead are similar in each case, but at Maradon Rand did all the killing himself, while in Tear he had help, I think it can be fair to say that he killed many more at Maradon.

 

A drastic increase in Power between the two is not really necessary, though. At Maradon he was fully reintegrated with Lews Therin - he could almost certainly use a similar ttotal volume of Power to much greater effect.

[thisguy]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

I think the rationale for saying that "Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor" is that at Lord Algarin's manor, there were a number of other channelers helping - Logain, the Aes Sedai, etc. At Maradon, Rand is standing in the field with two Maidens who are basically decoration at that point. So, if the total numbers of dead are similar in each case, but at Maradon Rand did all the killing himself, while in Tear he had help, I think it can be fair to say that he killed many more at Maradon.

 

A drastic increase in Power between the two is not really necessary, though. At Maradon he was fully reintegrated with Lews Therin - he could almost certainly use a similar ttotal volume of Power to much greater effect.

i like this explanation.

[Suttree]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

I think the rationale for saying that "Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor" is that at Lord Algarin's manor, there were a number of other channelers helping - Logain, the Aes Sedai, etc. At Maradon, Rand is standing in the field with two Maidens who are basically decoration at that point. So, if the total numbers of dead are similar in each case, but at Maradon Rand did all the killing himself, while in Tear he had help, I think it can be fair to say that he killed many more at Maradon.

 

A drastic increase in Power between the two is not really necessary, though. At Maradon he was fully reintegrated with Lews Therin - he could almost certainly use a similar ttotal volume of Power to much greater effect.

i like this explanation.

 

Ditto

[b3arz3rg3r]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

Yeah right, an army of about a million or so shadowspawn, which I consider a conservative estimate since it is described as many times the number which had assaulted Maradon when Ituralde held it with his 100k, flees when there are less than 10% casualties. Threre is a clear disconnect here. In the entire story shadowspawn were shown to have a ridiculously high breaking point.

 

Also, even if entire legions escaped, a legion is only about 5k usually. Compared to a million one legion is really not much.

 

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

I think the rationale for saying that "Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor" is that at Lord Algarin's manor, there were a number of other channelers helping - Logain, the Aes Sedai, etc. At Maradon, Rand is standing in the field with two Maidens who are basically decoration at that point. So, if the total numbers of dead are similar in each case, but at Maradon Rand did all the killing himself, while in Tear he had help, I think it can be fair to say that he killed many more at Maradon.

 

A drastic increase in Power between the two is not really necessary, though. At Maradon he was fully reintegrated with Lews Therin - he could almost certainly use a similar ttotal volume of Power to much greater effect.

 

It's more than just reintegration. Rand has changed in some fundamental manner. Look at the children he has with Aviendha. The only explanation for their difference is that whatever changed in Rand has affected them in some way.

[Neophyte]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

Yeah right, an army of about a million or so shadowspawn, which I consider a conservative estimate since it is described as many times the number which had assaulted Maradon when Ituralde held it with his 100k, flees when there are less than 10% casualties. Threre is a clear disconnect here. In the entire story shadowspawn were shown to have a ridiculously high breaking point.

 

Also, even if entire legions escaped, a legion is only about 5k usually. Compared to a million one legion is really not much.

 

Honestly, that "million" number just came out of your head. It never says anything about a "million" Trollocs - and Maradon wouldn't have held as long as it did if there were.

 

I'm not sure you could even fit a "million" Trollocs into the spaces described.

 

Also, Rand is clearly using the One Power in a different way at Maradon than he did at Lord Algarin's manor. He raises a massive storm above the city - something with a great effect, but which probably doesn't use as much raw Power - it starts a controlled process, but lets natural forces do much of the work. Some things were the same, but many were different, and frankly were more ... elegant.

 

 

It's more than just reintegration. Rand has changed in some fundamental manner. Look at the children he has with Aviendha. The only explanation for their difference is that whatever changed in Rand has affected them in some way.

 

Clearly Rand has changed in some fundamental manner - directly related to his full reintegration. Whether that is the cause of Aviendha's children's special relationship with the One Power remains to be seen. None of that means that Rand now has the strength of 100 Asha'man.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Nothing against BS, but I don't think he really thought about the numbers involved. Rand destroyed far more at Maradon than he did at the manor. If Rand isn't supposed to have gained such a crazy power up it shouldn't have been written as a crazy power up.

 

Actually he didn't. At Maradon he drove off more and "entire legions" escaped but the description of dead was the same at "tens of thousands". I will agree the way it was written seemed like a massive power up.

 

Yeah right, an army of about a million or so shadowspawn, which I consider a conservative estimate since it is described as many times the number which had assaulted Maradon when Ituralde held it with his 100k, flees when there are less than 10% casualties. Threre is a clear disconnect here. In the entire story shadowspawn were shown to have a ridiculously high breaking point.

 

Also, even if entire legions escaped, a legion is only about 5k usually. Compared to a million one legion is really not much.

 

Honestly, that "million" number just came out of your head. It never says anything about a "million" Trollocs - and Maradon wouldn't have held as long as it did if there were.

 

I'm not sure you could even fit a "million" Trollocs into the spaces described.

 

Like I said I consider it a conservative estimate. Rodel Ituralde and I believe about 100k plus 100 Asha'man held the hillforts and city against superior numbers for quite some time and then it says many times that number appear in aSoL. So no, I don't think a million is that far off. Even if it wasn't explicitly said.

 

As for the space, in Berlin, Germany, there's a street about a mile or a mile and a half in length on which during the soccer world/european championships several times over half a million people gathered to celebrate. In front of Maradon there's far more space than that.

 

Also, Rand is clearly using the One Power in a different way at Maradon than he did at Lord Algarin's manor. He raises a massive storm above the city - something with a great effect, but which probably doesn't use as much raw Power - it starts a controlled process, but lets natural forces do much of the work. Some things were the same, but many were different, and frankly were more ... elegant.

 

The storm made some things easier, the lightning and the tornados, but that's about all it did. By itself the storm wouldn't have done any significant damage. The raw power necessary to cause several tornados at the same time and perfectly control their movement, all those lightningstrikes, the waves of fire and the firespouts

 

 

It's more than just reintegration. Rand has changed in some fundamental manner. Look at the children he has with Aviendha. The only explanation for their difference is that whatever changed in Rand has affected them in some way.

 

Clearly Rand has changed in some fundamental manner - directly related to his full reintegration. Whether that is the cause of Aviendha's children's special relationship with the One Power remains to be seen. None of that means that Rand now has the strength of 100 Asha'man.

 

More happened than just the reintegration. Rand drew in more power than he could safely hold even with the CK and turned it on itself. By rights he should have been burned out if not dead, but somehow that didn't happen. Instead he became filled with Light somehow.

 

Well, he's able to do more with what he can hold than 100 Asha'man can. Quite a bit of that may be higher efficiency. That's enough for me.

As for Avi's children, it's just Occam's Razor. What else could be responsible for such a strange ability other than Rand's change?

[thisguy]

What I'd like to know is if the ability to tap the OP is tied to the soul, what's going on with Rand and Avi's children's souls? Put it in the perspective of rebirth. Or, is Rand-LTT and anamoly and people are not usually reborn with the same power/potential?

[Suttree]

Yeah right, an army of about a million or so shadowspawn, which I consider a conservative estimate since it is described as many times the number which had assaulted Maradon when Ituralde held it with his 100k, flees when there are less than 10% casualties. Threre is a clear disconnect here. In the entire story shadowspawn were shown to have a ridiculously high breaking point.

 

First you are making a million up. That number is never mentioned, nor is it described in that way.

 

Lastly not sure your point above? "Tens of thousands" was a direct quote from that passage describing the dead. Are you saying the book got it wrong?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Yeah right, an army of about a million or so shadowspawn, which I consider a conservative estimate since it is described as many times the number which had assaulted Maradon when Ituralde held it with his 100k, flees when there are less than 10% casualties. Threre is a clear disconnect here. In the entire story shadowspawn were shown to have a ridiculously high breaking point.

 

First you are making a million up. That number is never mentioned, nor is it described in that way.

 

Lastly not sure your point above? "Tens of thousands" was a direct quote from that passage describing the dead. Are you saying the book got it wrong?

 

Read my previous post and you'll see why I have good reasons for the number one million. Sure it could only be 800k but it could just as well be 2mil in the entire army.

 

Tens of thousands are on the field in front of Rand, nothing is said about those transported by Deathgate or those killed on the hill, the fortifications and in the pass itself.

[Neophyte]

Like I said I consider it a conservative estimate. Rodel Ituralde and I believe about 100k plus 100 Asha'man held the hillforts and city against superior numbers for quite some time and then it says many times that number appear in aSoL. So no, I don't think a million is that far off. Even if it wasn't explicitly said.

 

As for the space, in Berlin, Germany, there's a street about a mile or a mile and a half in length on which during the soccer world/european championships several times over half a million people gathered to celebrate. In front of Maradon there's far more space than that.

 

You're entitled to your opinion ... I just happen to disagree.

 

I'm curious, too - I don't remember Itrualde having 100k soldiers and 100 plus Asha'man. Where did those numbers come from? Perhaps I just missed the reference.

 

As for the space issue - gathering people in a street to celebrate is far, far different than marshaling an army to attack. I'll just leave it at that - we disagree on the spacing issue as well.

 

 

More happened than just the reintegration. Rand drew in more power than he could safely hold even with the CK and turned it on itself. By rights he should have been burned out if not dead, but somehow that didn't happen. Instead he became filled with Light somehow.

 

Again, it says he turned the Choedan Kal's power on itself - I don't have the books in front of me, but I don't remember him drawing more than the CK could hold, he just pulled as much as he could and destroyed the thing. I don't know why he would even need to overdraw on it - surely the Choedan Kal could supply more than enough Power to destroy itself physically.

 

Besides, I didn't say that reintegration is all that happened. I said that what happened was "directly related to his full reintegration." Rand has clearly changed in some ways, and the net of liquid light surrounding his taint madness is clearly unique. I'm just saying that doesn't mean he can now channel insane amounts of the Power unaided.

 

 

Well, he's able to do more with what he can hold than 100 Asha'man can. Quite a bit of that may be higher efficiency. That's enough for me.

 

True, and I'm glad we can agree on that. Although again, I'm not sure about that 100 Asha'man number. When Ituralde and Deepe are chatting about tactics in ToM ch 28, it is interjected that Deepe is one of only three full Asha'man in the group, and they are a little worried about something being done by six male channelers in the enemy camp. That seems a little silly if they have a hundred channelers in their own camp. So, if you could provide some backing for your numbers, that would be great ...

 

 

As for Avi's children, it's just Occam's Razor. What else could be responsible for such a strange ability other than Rand's change?

 

Occam's Razor is often misapplied in the absence of complete information. The answer to "what else could be responsible" is "something we don't know about yet."

[Suttree]

Tens of thousands are on the field in front of Rand, nothing is said about those transported by Deathgate or those killed on the hill, the fortifications and in the pass itself.

 

Death gates I'll give you but the rest is not accurate. Nowhere does it specify directly by Rand it is a descriptor for the dead. Additionally if the range was even close to what you suggest none would have escaped in thy mass exodus.