Was Min wrong about the Aes Sedai keeping their oath

[jsbrads]

Min forsaw that the AS would keep their oath to follow Rand until the last battle. but Elza did not keep that oath. Parse it if you can.

 

Also I don't think an AS could break the oaths or lie if put under compulsion as it seems that it is involuntary. but if compulsion could break the oaths, that still would not free Min of failure.

Min's vision is that, they will not betray you (after the fact, so no loop holes) where as by an oath we can say, I can't lie, but the lie said under compulsion was not my choice (see the problem with this, choice has nothing to do with it).

 

and please don't read into Min's words that Elza thought it was okay to put Rand under the Domination Band, that is not keeping an oath by any definition.

[Barid Bel Medar]

From memory, she said they will each "serve you in their own way.' or something similar, not that they will be faithful to the end. Elza did serve him, she killed Aginor (again)

[yoniy0]

Also, Elza isn't bound by the same Oaths as other AS, mind you.

[Gabriel Kross]

oh both my responses were posted for me :)

[jsbrads]

Again "serve in her own way" can't mean put the domination band on him

and aginor was an accident, she always tried to chase off the baddies, aginor walked into line of fire and she thought he was just a Darkfriend

 

The oaths don't apply to Elza, but Min's vision is what is in question, i tried to explain that above

[Barid Bel Medar]

you are getting some things confused.

 

1, the vision does not state that they will be faithful forever.

 

2. service does not have to be intentional.

 

 

so,

 

She served rand and got rid of a Forsaken, a pretty big service.

 

She had already served him in her own way, the vision was fulfilled, so anything the viewing doesn't apply any more.

 

But, if you want to get really technical, you could say Elza served him still by going along with Semirhage. It was that moment when he cracked and became Dark. Which ultimately led him back to the Light because he was so Dark and nearly killed his own father. You could say that this was required to happen before Rand could come to his epiphany.

 

Point is, there is nothing wrong with this vision. She had served in her own way by killing Aginor = viewing completed.

[Luckers]

Again "serve in her own way" can't mean put the domination band on him

 

Actually it can. Elza's rationalization of Verin's compulsion on her to serve Rand was to help Rand get to the Last Battle in order to lose to the Great Lord. Thus, seeing him leashed and handed to the Great Lord was indeed 'serving him in her own way'.

[spoke]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I had understood it as Min only referring to the Salidar Aes Sedai. Elza was a Tower Aes Sedai.

[Luckers]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I had understood it as Min only referring to the Salidar Aes Sedai. Elza was a Tower Aes Sedai.

 

Actually Min wasn't even referring to just Aes Sedai. Sorilea was included in her viewing.

 

But yes, Min actually has two viewings. One about Salidar Aes Sedai (she sees five of them in his hand and says they will keep their word), one about Tower Aes Sedai that Sorilea brings to swear fealty to Rand (they will serve him, each in her fashion).

[kght22]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I had understood it as Min only referring to the Salidar Aes Sedai. Elza was a Tower Aes Sedai.

 

Actually Min wasn't even referring to just Aes Sedai. Sorilea was included in her viewing.

 

But yes, Min actually has two viewings. One about Salidar Aes Sedai (she sees five of them in his hand and says they will keep their word), one about Tower Aes Sedai that Sorilea brings to swear fealty to Rand (they will serve him, each in her fashion).

hmm, doesn't that mean that whatever alanna is up to, she will keep her oath? =P(sorry for the derail)

[Luckers]

Min's exact words: "They will keep their word....I just saw these five in your hand."

[jsbrads]

To Barid bel Medar: The oath they gave was follow him until the last battle, not forever (then they will be free to resume their private lives)

 

Service does not have to be intentional, I'll accept that, but disservice can't be intentional because "in their own fashion" is very clear to me that these AS will meddle to help Rand, just sometimes they will frustrate him, like Alanna's Bonding him, she did it to help him (noone argues she did it to hurt him) but it wasn't what he wanted. Where as Elza put the domination band, to serve the shadow, not to serve Rand "in her own fashion"

 

to Luckers, how does, "they will keep their word" apply here? Did she keep her word?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Edit: misinterpretation!

[Luckers]

To Barid bel Medar: The oath they gave was follow him until the last battle, not forever (then they will be free to resume their private lives)

 

Service does not have to be intentional, I'll accept that, but disservice can't be intentional because "in their own fashion" is very clear to me that these AS will meddle to help Rand, just sometimes they will frustrate him, like Alanna's Bonding him, she did it to help him (noone argues she did it to hurt him) but it wasn't what he wanted. Where as Elza put the domination band, to serve the shadow, not to serve Rand "in her own fashion"

 

to Luckers, how does, "they will keep their word" apply here? Did she keep her word?

 

Again, placing the Domination Band on Rand was to serve him in the fashion Elza had chosen. Specifically, Elza held that it was Rand's fate to be defeated by the Dark One, therefore she served him in the sense that she was aiding him to reach his fate [as she saw it to be]. It's not a logical rationalization, because she was twisting herself in response to Verin's compulsion, but its still true. To Elza, giving him up to the Shadow was serving him.

 

The 'they will keep their word' was about the Rebel sisters, not about Elza. Elza was 'they will serve you, each in their own fashion'.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The 'they will keep their word' was about the Rebel sisters, not about Elza. Elza was 'they will serve you, each in their own fashion'.

 

Oh, in that case, I take back what I said in my last post, i agree with you.

[jsbrads]

Whoa, absolutely not.

I think I win any poll on this, but Elza knew she wasn't helping Rand.

If you are fated to have a flat tire you know how someone can help you, bring a spare tire.

help rand in her fashion cannot mean, putting the domination band and handing him over Semirage, she believed her path was to protect Rand until the Last Battle as she said to herself on the hill above Shadar Logoth, her job is not to hurt him but to keep him alive, eventually he will reach the last battle and then, she couldn't harm him, wouldn't want to harm him, as his fate is the meet DO (where she hoped he would be turned, becasue darkfriends are really all misunderstood and they really love life (see last season of Babylon 5))

 

separately there is an obvious gap, who gave her the compulsion,? but RJ and Brandon are gonna hide that DF (/BA) until last book

[jsbrads]

 

The one possibility I can think of is that since Shaidar Haran is basically a shadowy form of the DO, and the DO is outside the Pattern, somehow Shaidar Haran's involvment messed up the viewing. It is the first viewing where Shaidar Haran has intervened directly (AFAIK)

 

 

Uh uh. Min reads the pattern, so as long as the pattern exists, she can't be wrong. What she can predict is something that will happen after the Last Battle and if DO wins, the event can not occur...

But she can't predict that the sun will rise tomorrow and give off green light and when it doesn't we are just like well its okay, because something blocked it from happening... no good

[Byzantine279]

No, I agree with Luckers. There was a reason the viewing was so strangely worded. If she had seen that they would do what Rand wanted, she would have said that. Instead she said something that pretty much gives them leeway to do anything, so long as they believe they are doing it to serve him, same as Verin's compulsion in fact. Meaning that you are wrong. Putting the Domination Band on Rand, etc really was serving him, in her own way. (Just because they kill you doesn't mean they didn't serve you... in their own way. Wording must be watched very carefully).

[Sharaman]

We know Verin used her form of Compulsion on Elza and the other Tower AS who kidnapped Rand - see TPoD - the scene from Verin's PoV where she Compels Beldaine

We also know Elza's motivations - we've seen two PoVs from her - WH cleansing being the first key one and the second the scene with her DF warder.

Elza would do anything to keep the DR safe until the LB.

What's more "safe" than handing him over to a Great Mistress .(Semirhage, BTW the ultimate dominatrix) who would pass the DR into the GLoD's custody?

After that it would be upto the GLoD to keep the DR safe until TG. - Elza had fulfilled her responsibility

[Barid Bel Medar]

Whoa, absolutely not.

I think I win any poll on this, but Elza knew she wasn't helping Rand.

 

Actually, nobody has agreed with you yet...

 

Elza wanted Rand to serve the DO, her reasons for serving him is to hand him to the DO at the Last Battle.

 

Semirhage was going to Travel to Shayol Ghul to present him to the DO.

 

That is her idea of service to Rand. To hand him to the DO and turn him to the Shadow.

 

IT is not Rand's idea of service, but Elza certainly thinks it is.

 

 

As for Shaidar Haran, you seem to misunderstand what I said. Shaidar Haran is a shadowy form of the DO. THe DO is outside the pattern, and his actions are unpredictable. Shaidar Haran, as "Hand of the Shadow", I was theorizing, also acts undetected by the Pattern, and could subvert the viewings, because he is basically the DO manifest. I am not saying this is true, but it is still a possibility, your comparison is invalid, I don't know what it is in reference to.

 

Edit: Alright, this should clear it up.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

TEREZ (30 JULY 2010)

 

Does Min's comment to Corele mean that the Dark One can subvert her viewings BEFORE the Pattern is destroyed?

 

TEREZ

Asked in reference to the viewing that Elza would serve Rand. Or did it simply not imply she would serve forever?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (30 JULY 2010)

Elza did serve Rand, in her own way. It did not mean forever. That was not a subverting of the viewing

.

 

Also, just to justify my SH comment, to make me feel better :) It was a real possibility, even if it was not the case this time, technically, SH could still have this power as the DO grows stronger.

 

FOOTNOTE

Min and Cadsuane told Corele that she sees pieces of the Pattern, but if the Dark One destroys the Pattern as he aims to do, then her viewings will be irrelevant. Those that are in reference to things after the Last Battle will only come to pass if they prevent the Dark One from destroying the Pattern. Some took this to mean that Shaidar Haran (essentially, the Dark One) subverted Min's viewing that Elza would serve Rand when he ordered Elza to help Semirhage torture and control Rand.

[gloweye]

We dont need to break our minds with the DB scene...she served him pretty well by killing off dashiva/osengar. Every death of a forsaken could be called a goods service to the Champion of the Light. This vision could even be true for Greandal this way.

 

And I don't believe the the wording of min's vieuwing indicates intentional service. At least, not always.

 

Editj spelling

[kght22]

err, semi broke elza's compulsion, shadar haran told her that eza had compulsion on her and had her heal it. so she could have broke oath, but in a way she served rand still by bringing him closer to the vog scene.

[Byzantine279]

If you saw her point of view, Testy, while semi broken the compulsion she was already thinking along those lines.

[Suttree]

Whoa, absolutely not.

I think I win any poll on this, but Elza knew she wasn't helping Rand.

 

So put one up in this thread and let's see...

[kght22]

If you saw her point of view, Testy, while semi broken the compulsion she was already thinking along those lines.

fair enough, i was just noticing some thinking that the compulsion still existed when she and semi attacked rand.