Aviendha and the Aiel

[RandA lThor]

i was thinking on how Aviendha saw the vision of her children pretty much destroying all the Aiel and wondered how she would react. i have heard some people say that she will kill herself, but if she didn't already have kids with Rand the first time, then I don't know why she wouldn't just not have kids. Anyways, have fun with this topic.

[Majsju]

Because she will try to change the future she saw. Not having children would not solve the situation she saw, with the Seanchan refusing to release the WO damane. The key is explaining to Rand why his plan must be changed.

[Maleshub]

There seems to be several keys to altering the end result of Aviendha's columns visions:

- Convince Rand to make the Aiel part of his peace pact with the Seanchan. It was clear in the visions that he didn't include them (did not make them promise or adhere) in it.

- Make the Aiel go back to the Three-fold Land, and make it a domain that is open to interaction with the land beyond the Dragonwall. The spark that started the war with the Seanchan ignited in Arad Doman with restless spears.

- Find a new mission for the Aiel (live in steddings with Ogier to plant and sing, populate the liberated lands in the Blight, build up the Three-fold Land, serve the Seanchan Empress under special pact that protects them from persecution, like Ogier, etc....)

- Find a solution for the a'dam (Setalle Anan - Martine Janata - if Flinn can heal her; or Elayne)

- Mat with Bethamin and Seta causing a revolution in the Empire.

[A. Pseudonym]

Whenever this is discussed, there is the assumption that Aviendha's vision is only a possibility and avoidable. What if it isn't?

 

Going through the pillars the first time, an Aiel sees the memories of his ancestors in the order of recent to distant. When Aviendha went in the second time she saw the experiences of her descendants in the same way.

 

The point is, in the circular loop of the Wheel of Time, the future is as immutable as the past. If the visions provided of the past by the pillars are absolute, then so too are it's visions of the future. For every full turning of the Wheel, there might be small differences, but surely not something as significant as the fate of the People of the Dragon.

 

Otherwise, there is something else going on. Which might be the case, given the lack of all the main characters in the vision.

[Roxinos]

The point is, in the circular loop of the Wheel of Time, the future is as immutable as the past.

 

Every turning of the Wheel is not exactly alike. The future and past does change. There is room for error. The Dark One can win. And what Aviendha saw in the columns can be changed.

[muddasssir]

Of course we are assuming that Rand is going to ask for Dragon's peace at field of MERRILOR or somewhere along the line. Personally I go with theory that mat is going to turn fortuna.

[A. Pseudonym]

The point is, in the circular loop of the Wheel of Time, the future is as immutable as the past.

 

Every turning of the Wheel is not exactly alike. The future and past does change. There is room for error. The Dark One can win. And what Aviendha saw in the columns can be changed.

 

I know.... and there's even a quote by RJ saying that. The point is, major events that the Pattern demands happen, like The Dragon, the drilling of the bore, the sealing of the bore, etc, always happen.

 

My assertion is that the fate of the People of the Dragon is important enough to always be the same in each turning.

 

Readers don't want the Aiel to go extinct because they're awesome. I agree. But the visions of the past that the pillars give are absolutely accurate - apparently. Therefore if we are to assume that the visions of the future follow the same mechanism then they too are absolutely accurate.

 

Otherwise, as I said, something else is going on. Probably Nakomi.

[Roxinos]

My assertion is that the fate of the People of the Dragon is important enough to always be the same in each turning.

 

That's a pretty big assertion considering the fact that the champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow in the past. You'd imagine that something like that would be so important as to be immutable.

 

Considering that, I'd say nothing is immutable. Actually, the very fact that the Dark One can win indicates that nothing is immutable. If he can win, then the things you claim as being immutable (the Dragon, the drilling of the Bore, the sealing of the Bore, etc.) are not immutable at all. Since if any of them fail, then the Dark One wins.

 

Unless you're suggesting he can only win in a very limited window which happens to be the Third Age. And I'd say you're pushing it a bit too far, there.

[Maleshub]

One way to look at Aviendha's visions in the glass columns is the future development of events if the different variables at the present in Aviendha's mind continue as they are.

 

For example, if the WT and BT remain divided, then the Seanchan will prevail. But if male and female channelers unite under one authority or in one institution, then they will be strong enough to keep the Seanchan at bay.

[jsbrads]

this discussion came up before and my opinion is that it is not Rand's problem.

The Aiel need to return to the way of the leaf. they were told by a Aes sedai when they first left that that is the only important thing for them to maintain, even above the keeping the terangreal. They ignored that and spent the last ~3000 years as barbarians killing each other. that was the cost of not listening to good advice. I don't claim to understand why these people took upon themselves the way of the leaf, but an oath is an oath. We would maybe not look down on a Borderlander who moved south, but surely those who stay and fight earn more honor. I think it is the same, or maybe the Aiel oath is deeper, stronger, older, with worse consequences when broken. and perhaps not as circumstantial as the borderlanders

The reason I would advise any non-Aiel to keep out of this (including Rand) is because this is something they need to realize on their own, not outside pressure, to return to the way of the leaf with a renewed commitment to it.

(unrelatedly, why havent the nations of the Randland been sending troops to train and support the borderlands...)

[Roxinos]

The reason I would advise any non-Aiel to keep out of this (including Rand) is because this is something they need to realize on their own, not outside pressure, to return to the way of the leaf with a renewed commitment to it.

(unrelatedly, why havent the nations of the Randland been sending troops to train and support the borderlands...)

 

The people who call themselves Aiel now are so far removed from the Jenn Aiel that they are a different people altogether. You might as well ask the Cairhienin or Tairen nobility to "go back to the Way of the Leaf." They are not the same people who once held to the Way of the Leaf. To suggest that they need to learn it for themselves and that Rand and every external force needs to keep out of it? That's ridiculous. Even Aviendha, the one person who may have the ability to change things, does not see things that way (and cannot see things that way). If what you say is the only path for the Aiel, then the Aiel are doomed.

[A. Pseudonym]

My assertion is that the fate of the People of the Dragon is important enough to always be the same in each turning.

 

That's a pretty big assertion considering the fact that the champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow in the past. You'd imagine that something like that would be so important as to be immutable.

 

Good point. But in that case, is the fate of the Aiel, whatever it might be, the intent of the Pattern or the corruption of the Pattern's intent by the Shadow? Those are the only 2 alternatives. If these things happen after the Last Battle, how can there be a Shadow to influence the fate of the Aiel in this way?

 

And if the Aiel's fate is not the pattern's intent, but would only come about through the Shadow's influence, why would the pillars show the future that the Pattern did not intend to bring about? Isn't that how they work?

 

I think the more important thing here is the pillars themselves. Whether they are in fact showing in the vision of the future that they provide Aviendha, the same sort of vision as they normally do. Or whether there is something else going on, be it artificial through Nakomi or a possible future like mirror worlds.

 

My point is that if the future vision works the same as the past vision and if the fate of the Aiel is important enough to always be the same in every turning, that what Aviendha saw will happen, unavoidably.

Because while being a vision of Aviendha's future, in a universe of circular time it is still a vision of the past also. It's already happened and will happen. That is, if the vision showed the Pattern's intent for the Aiel and not something else....

 

Considering that, I'd say nothing is immutable. Actually, the very fact that the Dark One can win indicates that nothing is immutable. If he can win, then the things you claim as being immutable (the Dragon, the drilling of the Bore, the sealing of the Bore, etc.) are not immutable at all. Since if any of them fail, then the Dark One wins.

 

Again, the Dark One is not part of the Pattern. The Pattern is Fate, but the Dark One operates as an influence upon that Fate, corrupting it, redirecting it to whatever degree he can. What I'm saying is that the Pattern, in itself, is immutable. Think of Min's visions, or Foretelling. Fate can only fail when it comes under the influence of the Shadow.

 

Maybe, anyway. Saying this makes it seem like the Pattern deliberately weaves itself so that the Bore is drilled and the Pattern itself comes under threat. That, or the Dark One can influence events without a Bore and consequently affected Beidomon, Mierin, etc. in order that they would drill the Bore in the first place and free him.

 

What someone should ask Sanderson et al is whether the Dark One could influence the Pattern when there was no Bore.

 

Unless you're suggesting he can only win in a very limited window which happens to be the Third Age. And I'd say you're pushing it a bit too far, there.

 

I don't know how he can win, if the Dragon was previously turned. Even then, it was apparently a draw. We don't know what this "draw" consisted of.

Maybe a previous Rand destroyed the Seanchan at Ebou Dar, or the Borderland Army, or killed a previous Tam. Maybe a Previous Rand never went to Dragonmount. Maybe he decided once that rebirth wasn't worth it and used another Choedan Kal to destroy everything. Maybe the previous Fisher became so corrupted that the land itself turned to the Shadow.

 

Maybe his previous followers killed him when this happened and the world muddled on until he was reborn to do it again, properly. A little like with Lews Therin, actually...

 

Have the requirements for a total victory of the Shadow even been described?

[kght22]

heh, i actualy consider the traveling folk to be aiel. perhaps they have bred with the many nations of the westlands, but there is surely a bloodline going back to the da'shain remaining. not to mention i somehow doubt that during the aol that the da'shain were restricted to relationships among themselves. and were then likely as diverse as the westlands are. 3000 years of confined relationships made the aiel in the waste into a solidified ethnicity, but i doubt it was so much of one before that isolation. so yah, i think the traveling folk are as much aiel as those in the waste, only the jenn held to both the way, and to protecting the artifacts, and they are gone. the waste aiel protected the jenn and by extension protected the artifacts. the tuatha'an abandoned the artifacts but kept the way of the leaf.

[jsbrads]

The reason I would advise any non-Aiel to keep out of this (including Rand) is because this is something they need to realize on their own, not outside pressure, to return to the way of the leaf with a renewed commitment to it.

 

The people who call themselves Aiel now are so far removed from the Jenn Aiel that they are a different people altogether. You might as well ask the Cairhienin or Tairen nobility to "go back to the Way of the Leaf." They are not the same people who once held to the Way of the Leaf. To suggest that they need to learn it for themselves and that Rand and every external force needs to keep out of it? That's ridiculous. Even Aviendha, the one person who may have the ability to change things, does not see things that way (and cannot see things that way). If what you say is the only path for the Aiel, then the Aiel are doomed.

 

I can't agree more with the statement that the Avienda "does not see things that way" but we can also agree that regardless on if I'm right or not, if they can't make a change they are indeed doomed.

The Aiel however are not removed from the Jenn, they are the same people, descended from the Aiel who served the Aes Sedai, the Jenn share the same ancestors, the only distance between the two groups are social and cultural, but they are the same people (much like the Sunni and Shiite in Iraq, who may have decided recently to give up a 1600 year blood fued, we will see, but I digress)

 

and to reply to Testy al'Carr: The Traveling People may have to keep the Way of the Leaf, certainly I would encourage anyone born to something, not to change unless there is a real need. The one person we know left the fold did not turn out well.

One thing that removes someone from the Aiel, is being born with the spark/ability to learn (ref. Rand's viewing of the Age of Legends) the traveling people seem to have kept that tradition, tho we may find their all their entrants to the White tower in the Brown Ajah, we don't find any Aes Sedai who refuse to fight trollocs etc.

What is not clear is at what point intermarriage with other peoples would remove an Aiel from the People of the Dragon: Is half-Aiel, still Aiel? quarter? eighth? does it matter if it is the father of mother? or are they like the Cherokee, where any measurable blood makes a person Cherokee? ((I'm somewhere in 1/4-1/8 Cherokee range) but I also have a Jewish mother and born in USA, so I am part of three nations there alone and descended from Scots in the male line that western culture likes to follow... but I digress)

 

Oh, just to be clear, I think the Aiel should fight at the last battle, it is afterwards that they should revert, I agree with Nakomi logic.

[RandA lThor]

Nice, I just thought of the possibility of that always happening to the Aiel, like A. Pseudonym said. There is a big possibility that the Aiel are always destroyed, and they are created again by a group who does not agree with violence. I don't know if any names, such as the Rand al' thor or Aviendha are mentioned, so they could be showing the way past, please correct me if I'm wrong. I also thought that if Rand managed to do something to the DO, that normally doesn't, this would change the future.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think the Aiel necessarily have to go and turn all zen Way of the Leaf. All they need to do is find something other than war as their main purpose for living. It would be alright if they bailed to the 3FL and rebuilt cities and the land. They wouldn't have to just turn to non-violence.

 

Like someone who has diabetes. They need to cut down their sugar (in this case, war) intake, but it doesn't mean (well, at least in many cases, some cases can be severe) that they have to stop sugar intake (war) completely, just reduce its importance in their diet (way of life).

 

Build up a nation in the waste and work on peace, doesn't mean they cannot defend themselves.

 

The main problem I am seeing is the leashed WO's though. Honour demands the Aiel save their people. How to get that to work is a different story.

[csnyder]

In CoT 24, Rand thinks that Loial will be useful in negotiations with the Seanchan based on something Alivia had said.

 

Is this potentially foreshadowing that for Peace the Aiel/Tinkers and the Ogier will rediscover something that requires the existence of the Aiel for all of mankind's survival post-TG? That would definitely be incentive for Fortuona to keep the Aiel alive...

[Maleshub]

A few things to consider about the situation of the Aiel now is that the bleakness affected thousands of them. Many threw down their spears and fled (joining the Traveling People or going to Far Madding, or presumably to steddings). Others joined the Shaido, while others remained in (or fled back to) the 3-fold land.

 

It seems Aviendha's visions apply to the militarized Aiel, who insist on staying as armed clans. The visions do not touch on the subject of Aiel who were affected by the bleakness.

[Majsju]

In CoT 24, Rand thinks that Loial will be useful in negotiations with the Seanchan based on something Alivia had said.

 

Is this potentially foreshadowing that for Peace the Aiel/Tinkers and the Ogier will rediscover something that requires the existence of the Aiel for all of mankind's survival post-TG? That would definitely be incentive for Fortuona to keep the Aiel alive...

 

It is rather a reference to the very special position Ogier holds in the Seanchan society.

[csnyder]

A few things to consider about the situation of the Aiel now is that the bleakness affected thousands of them. Many threw down their spears and fled (joining the Traveling People or going to Far Madding, or presumably to steddings). Others joined the Shaido, while others remained in (or fled back to) the 3-fold land.

 

It seems Aviendha's visions apply to the militarized Aiel, who insist on staying as armed clans. The visions do not touch on the subject of Aiel who were affected by the bleakness.

Interesting that they may have had fled to Far Madding, can you post textual evidence for this claim?

It would also be interesting to know if the Aiel had only existed on the pre-Breaking Randland continent or globally. If it was the case that they were being subservient globally then maybe some had been integrated into societies in their own way. For that matter, were channeling Dashain allowed to become Aes Sedai, or were they specifically quarantined? What exactly makes the Aiel special - the Forsaken appear to be disdainful of the current age Aiel, is this mere disgust at the present age or something else?

 

And in response to Majsju, I see where you are coming from but are there any hints or ideas as to why the Ogier on Seanchan have such a front-and-center presence (beyond the amount of Stedding on Seanchan nor their lack of the Longing)?

[jsbrads]

A few things to consider about the situation of the Aiel now is that the bleakness affected thousands of them. Many threw down their spears and fled (joining the Traveling People or going to Far Madding, or presumably to steddings). Others joined the Shaido, while others remained in (or fled back to) the 3-fold land.

 

It seems Aviendha's visions apply to the militarized Aiel, who insist on staying as armed clans. The visions do not touch on the subject of Aiel who were affected by the bleakness.

Interesting that they may have had fled to Far Madding, can you post textual evidence for this claim?

It would also be interesting to know if the Aiel had only existed on the pre-Breaking Randland continent or globally. If it was the case that they were being subservient globally then maybe some had been integrated into societies in their own way. For that matter, were channeling Dashain allowed to become Aes Sedai, or were they specifically quarantined? What exactly makes the Aiel special - the Forsaken appear to be disdainful of the current age Aiel, is this mere disgust at the present age or something else?

 

And in response to Majsju, I see where you are coming from but are there any hints or ideas as to why the Ogier on Seanchan have such a front-and-center presence (beyond the amount of Stedding on Seanchan nor their lack of the Longing)?

 

Continents? pre-breaking there were no borders, but a national community, overseen by the Aes Sedai, if not precisely governed by the AS

 

When Rand went to Far Madding to kill those that needed it, he noticed some Aiel who were trying to rediscover the way of the leaf (or it's closest western counterpart, not practiced by the traveling people (we have yet to see if any Aiel joined with them)

[Majsju]

 

 

And in response to Majsju, I see where you are coming from but are there any hints or ideas as to why the Ogier on Seanchan have such a front-and-center presence (beyond the amount of Stedding on Seanchan nor their lack of the Longing)?

 

Far as I know, there are no hints to why they have their special standing, just that they have one. But I think it would be a very good guess that them not suffering from the Longing at least plays a part, since that means they can interact with the Seanchan society much easier than the Randland ogier. For example, serving as Gardeners for long periods.

There is also the possibility that Luthair played a part here. We know that the Ogier are very respected in Randland, at least by the people who know who the Ogier are. Could have been Luthair bringing this attitude to the Seanchan, And with no longing to hinder their interactions, and the Seanchan turning into one unified empire, it is simply taking that respect further.

 

You should have thought of this a week earlier or so, and maybe someone could have asked it during JordanCon.

[jsbrads]

To Majsju: Yeah, I'm not really sure why the ogier are different, I might say that they are not people, general respect is good, but I prefer their honesty that is above reproach which would make them singularly unique in seachan society. Also is seems that they kinda of reverted to their pre breaking life in the Empire, because in pre breaking society, the ogier would come and get you if you were a criminal (see rand's vision)

 

And to Isle: Aiel children born with the spark, joined the AS (see Rand's Vision)

 

To Pseudonym, check out my new theory on the pillars, still on first page now...

 

To Roxinos: The only proof we have that the dragon ever turned was the liar who promised us it happened...

 

Everybody: I don't think there is an exactness to the wheel of time, also DO could have won at the end of legends, the Aiel may be part of the cycle and maybe that is why the AS during the breaking who sent them off told them it was so important for them to keep that part of there identity

[Barid Bel Medar]

To Roxinos: The only proof we have that the dragon ever turned was the liar who promised us it happened...

 

 

Just on this, it is not quite true.

 

Ishamael was not lying. Roxinos is correct.

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to the Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Maleshub]

Just read the calendar in the "Sanderson moments" thread and noticed that Aviendha's timeline is 24 days behind the Field of Merrilor appointment.

 

It is a very good calendar that helped me understand the timeline. But How accurate is the ToM timeline?

 

If Aviendha's timeline is really 24 days behind; she's had a lot of time to think and meet with Wise Ones to discuss the future of the Aiel. And I'm surprised that she would wait 24 days after becoming a Wise One without going back to Rand.